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As someone who moved to Melbourne (and doesn’t have a car), I don’t have the love for trams that Melbournians do. They’re slow and disruptive to the rest of the

As someone who moved to Melbourne (and doesn’t have a car), I don’t have the love for trams that Melbournians do. They’re slow and disruptive to the rest of the traffic. At the same time buses aren’t stuck on rails and usually get you places a lot quicker. They’re also easier to get a seat on as the Melbournians I know hate buses and refuse to catch them.

ACow_Adonis 7y ago
Same boat, but do love them. In fact aside from walking, the trams are my main mode of transport. Can't stand buses. Buses are slower, comparatively unreliable, from the commuters view they are stuck on rails (that's what a route is), they don't support the increased density trams and rail do, have lower capacity, more disruptive to traffic, slower to get on/get off because of fewer doors. So now we have the contradictory evidence problem :p (And just for the record, I've lived in both Sydney and Melbourne, and the only thing worse than replacement buses are Sydney buses + Sydney traffic. Of course, that's not to say I don't use buses, I do, but Melbourne's core is awesome partly due to the trams, and people in Melbourne don't know how good they've got it).
reitzensteinm 7y ago
The rest of the traffic is disruptive to the trams. I also moved to Melbourne recently, and my theory is that the love of trams is inertia from a time where congestion wasn't so bad. I prefer to walk within the city loop, but both activities would be so much faster and more pleasant without the cars. There are quite a few Teslas that drive around here with wanky number plates like they're doing the world a favor, which in a city with such usable public transport always makes me cringe.
- munk-a 7y ago
  I feel like the best solution for this problem is a reduction of traffic in core city areas by restricting car access.
  - ACow_Adonis 7y ago
    Which I believe is Melbourne cities long term strategy along with more pedestrian prioritization.
    - munk-a 7y ago
      Nice, Vancouver appears to be leaning that way as well and I think it'll bring a lot of benefit to the downtown businesses.
- gizmonty 7y ago
  I live in Melbourne and drive a Tesla, but without a wanky number plate. I would love to use public transport, but it's completely impractical for me. It takes me 25 minutes to drive to work or 45 minutes (or more) on public transport. That 40 minutes a day is very valuable to me. I also often finish work very late when the frequency of public transport drops which further increases the travel time. I also often have to take children to school or other events and public transport is very poorly set up for that type of travel, and quickly becomes much more expensive than driving (once you already have the sunk cost of the car) when you have to pay for 3 trips. Melbourne is a primarily suburban city with very limited public transport available to substitute for the vast majority of journeys. If I was a single person with no children who worked in the city I would ride my bike or take the train every day. But I'm not, and I don't, so I drive. I drive a Tesla so I'm not contributing to the foul stench of burnt hydrocarbons that is increasingly choking this city.
  - reitzensteinm 7y ago
    It's only the wanky number plate I'm commenting on. You're not doing anything wrong by driving a Tesla, and it's preferable to an ICE. But you aren't doing more for the environment than someone who only takes public transport, which is practical and quite common here.
  - flukus 7y ago
    > It takes me 25 minutes to drive to work or 45 minutes (or more) on public transport. Keep in mind that you only have a 25 minute drive because so many other people are taking public transport, if it was ripped out you'd have a much longer commute so it is very practical for you, albeit indirectly. > That 40 minutes a day is very valuable to me Depending on how crowded the tram/train is that 40 minutes can usable time with a smartphone or laptop, it's not in a car.
    - samplatt 7y ago
      >Depending on how crowded the tram/train is that 40 minutes can usable time with a smartphone or laptop, it's not in a car. I have never been in any train or tram that has anywhere near enough room to use a laptop. In peak hours I try to even avoid using my phone - there's simply not enough room to have a raised hand near your face without the hand also being in someone else's face. The long-distance trains (like the Quiet Carraiges to Geelong) have more room, and in Perth I could use a laptop for the first ~30min of my journey before the train filled up.
chrisseaton 7y ago
> buses aren’t stuck on rails What's the difference to you, as a passenger, between being stuck on a tram rail, and being stuck on a bus route? You can't ask a bus driver you take a de-tour from their route, can you? > disruptive to the rest of the traffic No the rest of the traffic is disruptive to the trams!
- munk-a 7y ago
  And, to be honest, while buses may not be stuck on rails, the process to change a bus route is almost never less than a few months and can take much longer. It will always take less time to change a bus line than a train line - but this isn't a difference of hours vs. years, it's months vs. even more months.
  - Scoundreller 7y ago
    It’s pretty quick when the (tram|bus) in front has stalled out. Trams will have relief route loops, but they’re never in the most ideal location.
- reitzensteinm 7y ago
  The trams can't go diagonally, meaning if your destination doesn't align with the road grid you have to catch two of them.
  - bobthepanda 7y ago
    You can pick frequent or point-to-point service but you can rarely have both. Transfers are a perfectly normal part of a transit network.
    - reitzensteinm 7y ago
      Ok, but buses often travel more convenient routes in Melbourne because they're able to head in directions trams can't. Offering a general principle doesn't somehow refute reality.
yoube 7y ago
As someone who lives in Melbourne (and usually just uses a bicycle to commute), buses suck. They don't follow timetables, get noticeably slower during peak hours and get faster during school holidays. The reason people avoid using them is that they're unreliable. If I occasionally use the bus to get to/from work the trip can take anywhere from 30 minutes to 45.
- zik 7y ago
  Most Melbourne buses are horrendous. They're unpredictable timing-wise, slow, noisy, uncomfortable and many of the routes are poorly thought out so they don't get anywhere in a useful amount of time anyway. There are some express buses which at least are quick but they're still noisy and uncomfortable. Trams are a dream after using the buses.
andrewstuart 7y ago
Off topic but I think Canterbury road in Melbourne should be open to bike traffic only during peak hour with continuation to the city from there through Swan Street.
flukus 7y ago
Couldn't disagree more. Buses are much slower, often have long and winding routes (because they're not stuck on rails), get stuck in traffic and can't hold as many people, my tram lines with dedicated lanes don't have those problems. I doubt you'd see many people taking buses for trips where trams are an option. The permanence is also a feature. One of my favorite things about Melbourne is never having to visit a shopping mall because retail spaces spring up naturally along tram lines, these are easy to get to, open and walkable. It was also a big factor in where to buy an apartment, I'm pretty confident the tram lines will be there long after I die but bus lines can be changed on a whim. It's a crime that Sydney and Brisbane got rid of them.
- wahern 7y ago
  > my tram lines with dedicated lanes don't have those problems Dedicated lanes is the biggest factor. Plenty of trams don't have dedicated lanes, in which case the significant cost premium is a complete waste. Buses can also have dedicated lanes with right-of-way. The ones I've been on in Mexico and Ecuador were quite nice. While I personally find rail more comfortable and also appreciate how route permanence effects property values, as a taxpayer even dedicated lanes and right-of-way don't justify the costs. Historic lines are a different matter as the initial capital costs are already spent, and even if they cost more to operate it can still make sense. So it does suck that old lines were destroyed. But if you're gonna build new, I just can't abide paying the ridiculous premium for rail unless they're going underground or otherwise grade separated for a significant portion of the line. But if they're grade separated then by definition they're not really trams.
  - flukus 7y ago
    > Buses can also have dedicated lanes with right-of-way. IME they're an improvement but no where near as good as separated rail. It's like building a 32 lane highway, it speeds up most of your trip but then 90% of it is spent at the exit ramp. Underground would probably be an improvement for travel times but I'm not sure how much, part of the benefit of trams is their frequent stops so being completely unimpeded is less critical. I doubt you'd see the same level of retail build up along the lines too. One option I'd like to see return through the CBD would be elevated lines, I'm not sure why they fell out of fashion.
hestipod 7y ago
I wonder if this is something to do with their implementation, because in every place I have lived and been with trams the trams were faster than buses since buses were stuck in auto traffic. I love trams and trains. Tracklife for me.
DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
Buses are bumpier. The experience of riding a tram is simply much nicer. The fact that people avoid buses in Melbourne, as you say, is just a consequence of the difference in comfort.
sytringy05 7y ago
This about sums it up for your average Melburnian - '“A MAN who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself a failure.” So Margaret Thatcher is reputed to have said in 1986' Buses are for pensioners and school kids. https://www.economist.com/britain/2006/09/28/the-wheels-on-the-bus https://www.economist.com/britain/2006/09/28/the-wheels-on-t...

ACow_Adonis 7y ago

Same boat, but do love them. In fact aside from walking, the trams are my main mode of transport. Can't stand buses. Buses are slower, comparatively unreliable, from the commuters view they are stuck on rails (that's what a route is), they don't support the increased density trams and rail do, have lower capacity, more disruptive to traffic, slower to get on/get off because of fewer doors. So now we have the contradictory evidence problem :p (And just for the record, I've lived in both Sydney and Melbourne, and the only thing worse than replacement buses are Sydney buses + Sydney traffic. Of course, that's not to say I don't use buses, I do, but Melbourne's core is awesome partly due to the trams, and people in Melbourne don't know how good they've got it).

reitzensteinm 7y ago

The rest of the traffic is disruptive to the trams. I also moved to Melbourne recently, and my theory is that the love of trams is inertia from a time where congestion wasn't so bad. I prefer to walk within the city loop, but both activities would be so much faster and more pleasant without the cars. There are quite a few Teslas that drive around here with wanky number plates like they're doing the world a favor, which in a city with such usable public transport always makes me cringe.

munk-a 7y ago
I feel like the best solution for this problem is a reduction of traffic in core city areas by restricting car access.
- ACow_Adonis 7y ago
  Which I believe is Melbourne cities long term strategy along with more pedestrian prioritization.
  - munk-a 7y ago
    Nice, Vancouver appears to be leaning that way as well and I think it'll bring a lot of benefit to the downtown businesses.
gizmonty 7y ago
I live in Melbourne and drive a Tesla, but without a wanky number plate. I would love to use public transport, but it's completely impractical for me. It takes me 25 minutes to drive to work or 45 minutes (or more) on public transport. That 40 minutes a day is very valuable to me. I also often finish work very late when the frequency of public transport drops which further increases the travel time. I also often have to take children to school or other events and public transport is very poorly set up for that type of travel, and quickly becomes much more expensive than driving (once you already have the sunk cost of the car) when you have to pay for 3 trips. Melbourne is a primarily suburban city with very limited public transport available to substitute for the vast majority of journeys. If I was a single person with no children who worked in the city I would ride my bike or take the train every day. But I'm not, and I don't, so I drive. I drive a Tesla so I'm not contributing to the foul stench of burnt hydrocarbons that is increasingly choking this city.
- reitzensteinm 7y ago
  It's only the wanky number plate I'm commenting on. You're not doing anything wrong by driving a Tesla, and it's preferable to an ICE. But you aren't doing more for the environment than someone who only takes public transport, which is practical and quite common here.
- flukus 7y ago
  > It takes me 25 minutes to drive to work or 45 minutes (or more) on public transport. Keep in mind that you only have a 25 minute drive because so many other people are taking public transport, if it was ripped out you'd have a much longer commute so it is very practical for you, albeit indirectly. > That 40 minutes a day is very valuable to me Depending on how crowded the tram/train is that 40 minutes can usable time with a smartphone or laptop, it's not in a car.
  - samplatt 7y ago
    >Depending on how crowded the tram/train is that 40 minutes can usable time with a smartphone or laptop, it's not in a car. I have never been in any train or tram that has anywhere near enough room to use a laptop. In peak hours I try to even avoid using my phone - there's simply not enough room to have a raised hand near your face without the hand also being in someone else's face. The long-distance trains (like the Quiet Carraiges to Geelong) have more room, and in Perth I could use a laptop for the first ~30min of my journey before the train filled up.

chrisseaton 7y ago

> buses aren’t stuck on rails What's the difference to you, as a passenger, between being stuck on a tram rail, and being stuck on a bus route? You can't ask a bus driver you take a de-tour from their route, can you? > disruptive to the rest of the traffic No the rest of the traffic is disruptive to the trams!

munk-a 7y ago
And, to be honest, while buses may not be stuck on rails, the process to change a bus route is almost never less than a few months and can take much longer. It will always take less time to change a bus line than a train line - but this isn't a difference of hours vs. years, it's months vs. even more months.
- Scoundreller 7y ago
  It’s pretty quick when the (tram|bus) in front has stalled out. Trams will have relief route loops, but they’re never in the most ideal location.
reitzensteinm 7y ago
The trams can't go diagonally, meaning if your destination doesn't align with the road grid you have to catch two of them.
- bobthepanda 7y ago
  You can pick frequent or point-to-point service but you can rarely have both. Transfers are a perfectly normal part of a transit network.
  - reitzensteinm 7y ago
    Ok, but buses often travel more convenient routes in Melbourne because they're able to head in directions trams can't. Offering a general principle doesn't somehow refute reality.

yoube 7y ago

As someone who lives in Melbourne (and usually just uses a bicycle to commute), buses suck. They don't follow timetables, get noticeably slower during peak hours and get faster during school holidays. The reason people avoid using them is that they're unreliable. If I occasionally use the bus to get to/from work the trip can take anywhere from 30 minutes to 45.

zik 7y ago
Most Melbourne buses are horrendous. They're unpredictable timing-wise, slow, noisy, uncomfortable and many of the routes are poorly thought out so they don't get anywhere in a useful amount of time anyway. There are some express buses which at least are quick but they're still noisy and uncomfortable. Trams are a dream after using the buses.

andrewstuart 7y ago

Off topic but I think Canterbury road in Melbourne should be open to bike traffic only during peak hour with continuation to the city from there through Swan Street.

flukus 7y ago

Couldn't disagree more. Buses are much slower, often have long and winding routes (because they're not stuck on rails), get stuck in traffic and can't hold as many people, my tram lines with dedicated lanes don't have those problems. I doubt you'd see many people taking buses for trips where trams are an option. The permanence is also a feature. One of my favorite things about Melbourne is never having to visit a shopping mall because retail spaces spring up naturally along tram lines, these are easy to get to, open and walkable. It was also a big factor in where to buy an apartment, I'm pretty confident the tram lines will be there long after I die but bus lines can be changed on a whim. It's a crime that Sydney and Brisbane got rid of them.

wahern 7y ago
> my tram lines with dedicated lanes don't have those problems Dedicated lanes is the biggest factor. Plenty of trams don't have dedicated lanes, in which case the significant cost premium is a complete waste. Buses can also have dedicated lanes with right-of-way. The ones I've been on in Mexico and Ecuador were quite nice. While I personally find rail more comfortable and also appreciate how route permanence effects property values, as a taxpayer even dedicated lanes and right-of-way don't justify the costs. Historic lines are a different matter as the initial capital costs are already spent, and even if they cost more to operate it can still make sense. So it does suck that old lines were destroyed. But if you're gonna build new, I just can't abide paying the ridiculous premium for rail unless they're going underground or otherwise grade separated for a significant portion of the line. But if they're grade separated then by definition they're not really trams.
- flukus 7y ago
  > Buses can also have dedicated lanes with right-of-way. IME they're an improvement but no where near as good as separated rail. It's like building a 32 lane highway, it speeds up most of your trip but then 90% of it is spent at the exit ramp. Underground would probably be an improvement for travel times but I'm not sure how much, part of the benefit of trams is their frequent stops so being completely unimpeded is less critical. I doubt you'd see the same level of retail build up along the lines too. One option I'd like to see return through the CBD would be elevated lines, I'm not sure why they fell out of fashion.

hestipod 7y ago

I wonder if this is something to do with their implementation, because in every place I have lived and been with trams the trams were faster than buses since buses were stuck in auto traffic. I love trams and trains. Tracklife for me.

DiogenesKynikos 7y ago

Buses are bumpier. The experience of riding a tram is simply much nicer. The fact that people avoid buses in Melbourne, as you say, is just a consequence of the difference in comfort.

sytringy05 7y ago

This about sums it up for your average Melburnian - '“A MAN who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself a failure.” So Margaret Thatcher is reputed to have said in 1986' Buses are for pensioners and school kids. https://www.economist.com/britain/2006/09/28/the-wheels-on-the-bus https://www.economist.com/britain/2006/09/28/the-wheels-on-t...