6 ms·

I call BS. I am from Europe and I don't know anybody that cannot afford a week away from their home. And no, I don't live in a social bubble.

timwaagh 7y ago
when i was in school/college i could not afford this by myself. it was my parents who took me on trips or the students association subsidized it.
alexbanks 7y ago
It sounds like you almost definitely do.
- hn_throwaway_99 7y ago
  Yeah, parent's argument is one of the most interesting I've seen in a while: "I don't know any poor people, and no, I don't live in a bubble, so poverty doesn't exist!"
ebg13 7y ago
> And no, I don't live in a social bubble. How would you know?
- mahesh_rm 7y ago
  I can't be certain, but the sample spans different Countries and includes incomes from 0 to a lot, and age, from 0 to a lot.
  - refurb 7y ago
    How do the people you know who have incomes of 0 afford a week holiday?
    - lazyasciiart 7y ago
      Trust funds?
      - refurb 7y ago
        If everyone he knows with 0 income has a trust fund, then he definitely lives in a bubble.
    - mahesh_rm 7y ago
      Let's say that you are on social benefits. Let's say that this gives you 7 euros a day of budget (for most of Europe it's 2 or 3 times that or more). What prevents you from flying/hitch hiking somewhere (you can easily find Ryanair 3 to 10 euros promotion flights), and couch-surfing there? Bonus points: pick a place where life is less expensive than where you live, for actually saving money while traveling.
      - SomeOldThrow 7y ago
        Why do people use shelter when they could just sleep outside? It's much less expensive, you know.
        AstralStorm 7y ago
        You cannot just sleep outside in general by law in most of the EU. Loitering is a thing. Not to mention weather is often not exactly accommodating, so you would need gear to do that, and while not especially expensive, it is not free either, nor that comfortable. Quite a few people do take to tent hikes or biking trips which are cheap - excluding time and effort.
      - refurb 7y ago
        I don’t this is the type of vacation the article was talking about.
        AstralStorm 7y ago
  - roenxi 7y ago
    Unfortunately not much of a defense against bubbles. It depends more on how you are choosing the sample rather than how representative it is on 2 dimensions. I personally know people over a wide range of wealth and income brackets across several continents, including unemployed; but I don't know anyone who is involuntarily poor, because none of my hobbies or social circles would bring me into contact with a person who was struggling to get by.
Wellshit 7y ago
*Northern Europe There's your bubble
jbverschoor 7y ago
You live in a bubble. A lot of people live of off the social system. A lot of people simply don't earn enough. Inflation / salery increase didn't go as fast (if at all) as the rest of the world and of the cost of living. They can barely make ends meet.
- wsc981 7y ago
  I believe it's noticed in Asia as well or at the very least Thailand. For example there's much less European tourists travelling to places like Phuket [0] and Pattaya [1] lately. Of course the strong Thai Baht (or the weak Euro) also plays a role in this. --- [0]: https://thethaiger.com/hot-news/tourism/phuket-tourism-down-up-to-30-thai-hotels-association https://thethaiger.com/hot-news/tourism/phuket-tourism-down-... [1]: https://thethaiger.com/hot-news/tourism/pattaya-30-down-this-year-european-tourist-drop-off https://thethaiger.com/hot-news/tourism/pattaya-30-down-this...
b_tterc_p 7y ago
I agree. Nobody is poor in Europe.
davidw 7y ago
I recall reading about people in Italy who would pretend to go on vacation - closing up their houses - because they didn't actually have the cash to do so but were too embarrassed to admit it: https://www.ilmessaggero.it/societu00e0/piaceri/le_ferie_bugiarde_nuovi_poveri_finestre_chiuse_si_finge_di_partire-178785.html https://www.ilmessaggero.it/societu00e0/piaceri/le_ferie_bug... Admittedly, during the last crisis, but I doubt things have changed that much given how bad the economy is there.
luckylion 7y ago
I'm too, and I've lived at my current place for 8 months and already I know somebody who cannot. At my old place in a gentrified location, I knew quite a few. I'm pretty sure that is a bubble thing.
hjk05 7y ago
I’m from Europe and would similarly call bs. Literally everyone I know can afford a one week vacation. And that includes a couple on social services one friend who’s on long term sick leave and a homeless friend.... but I live in a bubble on the far right hand of the chart; Denmark, not in Romania or Greece, so my personal experience isn’t that telling. That said I do think they are artificially pushing the numbers higher by including 16 year olds. For jobless teens it’s obvious they “couldn’t afford” vacation, but again every teen I know travels with their parents paying. I think 10% being unable to travel in Denmark is extremely overshooting it. It’s more likely less than 2% in the extreme scenario. As I said I know unemployed and homeless people who still have enough to travel.
- adventured 7y ago
  > I’m from Europe and would similarly call bs. Most of Europe has seen zero net economic growth for about 12 years. Simultaneously household debt has skyrocketed across most of developed Europe over the last two decades. Many of the major economies in Europe have net contracted over the last 12 years, even as their populations have expanded (Britain and France for example). That's a recipe for falling per capita living standards (especially while populations are aging, so you have fewer workers and higher social welfare system costs). When you adjust for inflation, the majority of countries in Europe have seen their economies contract since 2007-2008. Here is what it looks like per capita from 2007-2017 (and many of the large economies in Europe are again teetering on recession, including Germany): https://i.imgur.com/2KwI19f.png https://i.imgur.com/2KwI19f.png If you look at Britain, their economy is about where it was in 2004 on GDP, while having added 10% more population For France, they're about where they were in 2003 on GDP. They've added 6% or 7% to their population in that time. Germany has seen zero net economic growth since 2007-2008. Italy has seen zero net economic growth since 2004. Spain has seen zero net economic growth since 2006. Russia has seen zero net economic growth since 2008 roughly. The Netherlands has seen zero net economic growth since 2007. Their economy was $913b for 2018, it was $936b in 2008 for comparison. That's prior to an inflation adjustment (a conservative inflation adjustment is that their economy is ~20% smaller versus 2008). Belgium has seen zero net economic growth since 2007. Denmark and Finland have seen zero net economic growth since 2007-2008. Denmark's GDP in 2007 was $319b ($353b in 2008), in 2018 it was $350b. Finland's economy was $255b in 2007 ($283b in 2008). It was $275b in 2018. A conservative inflation adjustment over those ten years would produce a meaningful contraction. Even worse, their economy was $141b in 1990, so they've seen almost no growth for nearly three decades. $141b adjusted from Jan 1991, is ~$268b today, per the Fed. Poland has seen zero net economic growth since 2008. Their GDP was $533b in 2008, it was $586b in 2018. Even a very small inflation adjustment across ten years means they've seen zero real growth (or worse, a real net contraction). Portugal has seen zero net economic growth since 2007-2008. Greece has been set back to where they were in the mid 1990s, so they've lost 25-30 years. This list keeps going. It consists of most of the large economies in Europe, with only a few exceptions (Sweden has done OK after an inflation adjustment, somewhere close to break-even; the Baltic states have done well). Countries like Slovakia, Czech, Bulgaria, Hungary, Belarus, Slovenia, Croatia, et al. have seen zero growth since 2007-2008 roughly.

timwaagh 7y ago

when i was in school/college i could not afford this by myself. it was my parents who took me on trips or the students association subsidized it.

alexbanks 7y ago

It sounds like you almost definitely do.

hn_throwaway_99 7y ago
Yeah, parent's argument is one of the most interesting I've seen in a while: "I don't know any poor people, and no, I don't live in a bubble, so poverty doesn't exist!"

ebg13 7y ago

> And no, I don't live in a social bubble. How would you know?

mahesh_rm 7y ago
I can't be certain, but the sample spans different Countries and includes incomes from 0 to a lot, and age, from 0 to a lot.
- refurb 7y ago
  How do the people you know who have incomes of 0 afford a week holiday?
  - lazyasciiart 7y ago
    Trust funds?
    - refurb 7y ago
      If everyone he knows with 0 income has a trust fund, then he definitely lives in a bubble.
  - mahesh_rm 7y ago
    Let's say that you are on social benefits. Let's say that this gives you 7 euros a day of budget (for most of Europe it's 2 or 3 times that or more). What prevents you from flying/hitch hiking somewhere (you can easily find Ryanair 3 to 10 euros promotion flights), and couch-surfing there? Bonus points: pick a place where life is less expensive than where you live, for actually saving money while traveling.
    - SomeOldThrow 7y ago
      Why do people use shelter when they could just sleep outside? It's much less expensive, you know.
      - AstralStorm 7y ago
        You cannot just sleep outside in general by law in most of the EU. Loitering is a thing. Not to mention weather is often not exactly accommodating, so you would need gear to do that, and while not especially expensive, it is not free either, nor that comfortable. Quite a few people do take to tent hikes or biking trips which are cheap - excluding time and effort.
    - refurb 7y ago
      I don’t this is the type of vacation the article was talking about.
      - AstralStorm 7y ago
- roenxi 7y ago
  Unfortunately not much of a defense against bubbles. It depends more on how you are choosing the sample rather than how representative it is on 2 dimensions. I personally know people over a wide range of wealth and income brackets across several continents, including unemployed; but I don't know anyone who is involuntarily poor, because none of my hobbies or social circles would bring me into contact with a person who was struggling to get by.

Wellshit 7y ago

*Northern Europe There's your bubble

jbverschoor 7y ago

You live in a bubble. A lot of people live of off the social system. A lot of people simply don't earn enough. Inflation / salery increase didn't go as fast (if at all) as the rest of the world and of the cost of living. They can barely make ends meet.

wsc981 7y ago
I believe it's noticed in Asia as well or at the very least Thailand. For example there's much less European tourists travelling to places like Phuket [0] and Pattaya [1] lately. Of course the strong Thai Baht (or the weak Euro) also plays a role in this. --- [0]: https://thethaiger.com/hot-news/tourism/phuket-tourism-down-up-to-30-thai-hotels-association https://thethaiger.com/hot-news/tourism/phuket-tourism-down-... [1]: https://thethaiger.com/hot-news/tourism/pattaya-30-down-this-year-european-tourist-drop-off https://thethaiger.com/hot-news/tourism/pattaya-30-down-this...

b_tterc_p 7y ago

I agree. Nobody is poor in Europe.

davidw 7y ago

I recall reading about people in Italy who would pretend to go on vacation - closing up their houses - because they didn't actually have the cash to do so but were too embarrassed to admit it: https://www.ilmessaggero.it/societu00e0/piaceri/le_ferie_bugiarde_nuovi_poveri_finestre_chiuse_si_finge_di_partire-178785.html https://www.ilmessaggero.it/societu00e0/piaceri/le_ferie_bug... Admittedly, during the last crisis, but I doubt things have changed that much given how bad the economy is there.

luckylion 7y ago

I'm too, and I've lived at my current place for 8 months and already I know somebody who cannot. At my old place in a gentrified location, I knew quite a few. I'm pretty sure that is a bubble thing.

hjk05 7y ago

I’m from Europe and would similarly call bs. Literally everyone I know can afford a one week vacation. And that includes a couple on social services one friend who’s on long term sick leave and a homeless friend.... but I live in a bubble on the far right hand of the chart; Denmark, not in Romania or Greece, so my personal experience isn’t that telling. That said I do think they are artificially pushing the numbers higher by including 16 year olds. For jobless teens it’s obvious they “couldn’t afford” vacation, but again every teen I know travels with their parents paying. I think 10% being unable to travel in Denmark is extremely overshooting it. It’s more likely less than 2% in the extreme scenario. As I said I know unemployed and homeless people who still have enough to travel.

adventured 7y ago
> I’m from Europe and would similarly call bs. Most of Europe has seen zero net economic growth for about 12 years. Simultaneously household debt has skyrocketed across most of developed Europe over the last two decades. Many of the major economies in Europe have net contracted over the last 12 years, even as their populations have expanded (Britain and France for example). That's a recipe for falling per capita living standards (especially while populations are aging, so you have fewer workers and higher social welfare system costs). When you adjust for inflation, the majority of countries in Europe have seen their economies contract since 2007-2008. Here is what it looks like per capita from 2007-2017 (and many of the large economies in Europe are again teetering on recession, including Germany): https://i.imgur.com/2KwI19f.png https://i.imgur.com/2KwI19f.png If you look at Britain, their economy is about where it was in 2004 on GDP, while having added 10% more population For France, they're about where they were in 2003 on GDP. They've added 6% or 7% to their population in that time. Germany has seen zero net economic growth since 2007-2008. Italy has seen zero net economic growth since 2004. Spain has seen zero net economic growth since 2006. Russia has seen zero net economic growth since 2008 roughly. The Netherlands has seen zero net economic growth since 2007. Their economy was $913b for 2018, it was $936b in 2008 for comparison. That's prior to an inflation adjustment (a conservative inflation adjustment is that their economy is ~20% smaller versus 2008). Belgium has seen zero net economic growth since 2007. Denmark and Finland have seen zero net economic growth since 2007-2008. Denmark's GDP in 2007 was $319b ($353b in 2008), in 2018 it was $350b. Finland's economy was $255b in 2007 ($283b in 2008). It was $275b in 2018. A conservative inflation adjustment over those ten years would produce a meaningful contraction. Even worse, their economy was $141b in 1990, so they've seen almost no growth for nearly three decades. $141b adjusted from Jan 1991, is ~$268b today, per the Fed. Poland has seen zero net economic growth since 2008. Their GDP was $533b in 2008, it was $586b in 2018. Even a very small inflation adjustment across ten years means they've seen zero real growth (or worse, a real net contraction). Portugal has seen zero net economic growth since 2007-2008. Greece has been set back to where they were in the mid 1990s, so they've lost 25-30 years. This list keeps going. It consists of most of the large economies in Europe, with only a few exceptions (Sweden has done OK after an inflation adjustment, somewhere close to break-even; the Baltic states have done well). Countries like Slovakia, Czech, Bulgaria, Hungary, Belarus, Slovenia, Croatia, et al. have seen zero growth since 2007-2008 roughly.