6 ms·

And what about what looks like rust smears around the rivets? This doesn't look like the master of the skies to me. It looks like decadence of the military ind

by wazoox 7y ago

And what about what looks like rust smears around the rivets? This doesn't look like the master of the skies to me. It looks like decadence of the military industrial complex, and bad use of $400 millions of taxpayer money. It looks like the most inefficient way of financing jobs across a country ever...

kuzehanka 7y ago
Huh? The F-22 is the most capable manned fighter that exists on the planet, not even US adversaries dispute it being the master of the skies. It allows missions that would be otherwise impossible. Yes, the price of that is high.
- computerex 7y ago
  https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/f-22-raptors-may-not-be-able-to-overcome-russia-s-su-35-after-all-severe-shortcomings-america-s-most-advanced-fighter-emerge-during-operations-in-syria https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/f-22-raptors-may-n... https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/how-did-russian-su-35-fighter-track-stealth-f-22-raptor-46062 https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/how-did-russian-su-35...
- computerex 7y ago
  Do you have a source to back this up?
  - outworlder 7y ago
    These "source" requests are tiring. What about you do some googling? If this is obviously false it won't take too much time to disprove it, right? I would be surprised if any credible source claimed that there was something better than the F-22. The possible competitors are either not in the same ballpark or not really ready for anything other than airshows.
    - computerex 7y ago
      You are mistaking Hacker news for reddit. The burden of proof lies on the person making fantastic claims. I obviously have sources saying the contrary that's why I disagree with your sentiment. That's why I'm interested to see the sources claiming the contrary. Maybe you should do some googling yourself and you'll find footage of French Rafale wiping the floor with the raptor in a simulated dogfight.
      - nickserv 7y ago
        The point of the F22 is that you don't get into a dogfight in the first place, you blow the adversary away from beyond visible range. The Rafale is a very good plane, but is not as stealthy as the Raptor. In any case, it will be years before we can say which is the superior plane, since all the good stuff is classified.
        computerex 7y ago
        Americans have been saying that wvr combat is over for like over 50 years. Even the US airforce doesn't believe this otherwise they wouldn't be drilling for wvr combat. The point is, no one has enough data to claim that the raptor is absolutely the most superior and dominant fighter jet. Making that claim simply based on stealth is foolish.
        kuzehanka 7y ago
        Pilots train and will continue to train on wvr combat because those are the basic piloting and combat skills required regardless of what you're flying. They're going to continue drilling wvr even if they had a hypothetical perfectly stealth unobservable plane just because those are the drills that make a fighter pilot. Spend a couple days learning a flight combat sim like DCS and it will become crystal clear that stealth is not only an advantage, it is almost unbeatable by a 4th gen fighter without additional support. If you're in a 4th gen fighter, your offensive options are pretty much nonexistent against a low observable fighter. The best thing you can do is dodge the first 1/2 fox-3 it throws at you, turn off your radar, and get out while you still have a plane. We're not even talking about standoff weapons yet. Even if you somehow got into a wvr dogfight against an F-22, you'd still lose because it's one of a handful of fighters capable of supermaneuverability. [1] There are 187 operational F-22, they've been in service for 14 years, and they've had zero losses. Go ahead and try to find anything that comes even close. "The F-22 achieved Full Operational Capability (FOC) in December 2007, when General John Corley of Air Combat Command (ACC) officially declared the F-22s of the integrated active duty 1st Fighter Wing and Virginia Air National Guard 192d Fighter Wing fully operational.[151] This was followed by an Operational Readiness Inspection (ORI) of the integrated wing in April 2008, in which it was rated "excellent" in all categories, with a simulated kill-ratio of 221–0.[152]" Given the fact that there have been 0 losses and those planes haven't been sitting idle in storage for the past decade, it's a pretty good bet that their real world perf is better than the simulated 221-0. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJO0KzTgcMI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJO0KzTgcMI
michannne 7y ago
I'm sure that within the scope of meetings and trailing incompetent upper-management, that many tech companies don't look like they should make as much money as they do from the inside, yet somehow they remain among the most profitable companies worldwide. It's all about context. Find a stealth fighter that can best an F-22, until then, it's the top of the top.
jsiepkes 7y ago
I think you are confusing the F-22 with the F-35 (JSF). The F-22 actually works as far as I know.
- dreamcompiler 7y ago
  Yes, the F-22 is the one that works. It works well enough the US is not selling them to its allies, but they are selling the F-35 (to anybody stupid enough to buy them).
  - adventured 7y ago
    > to anybody stupid enough to buy them You mean many of the elite militaries on the planet? Israel for example is not known for buying non-working trash as a primary to defend its skies with. Over time the majority of the best militaries will all fly the F35. Turkey must be a joke according to your premise, that's why they're so eager to get their hands on the F35. No, in fact Turkey has a top ~20 military in capability. "Australia, Canada, Denmark, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Turkey and the United Kingdom currently are in formal partnership with the United States on the F-35 program. Israel, Japan and South Korea have made orders through the foreign military sales process. Belgium also recently signed on to purchase platforms." [1] The F35 is the second best fighter that can be purchased, behind the F22. Its technology platform is superior to the F22 and far beyond anything anyone else has. Russia can't get their 5th gen planes to operate properly or get them into volume production (despite numerous failed declarations of such, and 20 years of development). China hasn't demonstrated that capability yet either. They're both two decades behind the US in 5th gen planes. The other European powers aren't even on the map when it comes to producing domestic 5th gen, they can't step up to that level at all. [1] https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2019/5/24/international-market-for-f-35-heats-up https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2019/5/24/i...
    - gscott 7y ago
      Israel has made a lot of their own modifications to the F-35 including a new wing design.
    - 7y ago
alwayseasy 7y ago
In the article "Clearly, performing at air shows doesn't require any stealth at all. In fact, the jets wear bolt-on radar-reflecting lenses so that their radar cross-section appears large on air traffic control radars. "

by wazoox 7y ago

kuzehanka 7y ago

Huh? The F-22 is the most capable manned fighter that exists on the planet, not even US adversaries dispute it being the master of the skies. It allows missions that would be otherwise impossible. Yes, the price of that is high.

computerex 7y ago
https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/f-22-raptors-may-not-be-able-to-overcome-russia-s-su-35-after-all-severe-shortcomings-america-s-most-advanced-fighter-emerge-during-operations-in-syria https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/f-22-raptors-may-n... https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/how-did-russian-su-35-fighter-track-stealth-f-22-raptor-46062 https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/how-did-russian-su-35...
computerex 7y ago
Do you have a source to back this up?
- outworlder 7y ago
  These "source" requests are tiring. What about you do some googling? If this is obviously false it won't take too much time to disprove it, right? I would be surprised if any credible source claimed that there was something better than the F-22. The possible competitors are either not in the same ballpark or not really ready for anything other than airshows.
  - computerex 7y ago
    You are mistaking Hacker news for reddit. The burden of proof lies on the person making fantastic claims. I obviously have sources saying the contrary that's why I disagree with your sentiment. That's why I'm interested to see the sources claiming the contrary. Maybe you should do some googling yourself and you'll find footage of French Rafale wiping the floor with the raptor in a simulated dogfight.
    - nickserv 7y ago
      The point of the F22 is that you don't get into a dogfight in the first place, you blow the adversary away from beyond visible range. The Rafale is a very good plane, but is not as stealthy as the Raptor. In any case, it will be years before we can say which is the superior plane, since all the good stuff is classified.
      - computerex 7y ago
        Americans have been saying that wvr combat is over for like over 50 years. Even the US airforce doesn't believe this otherwise they wouldn't be drilling for wvr combat. The point is, no one has enough data to claim that the raptor is absolutely the most superior and dominant fighter jet. Making that claim simply based on stealth is foolish.
        kuzehanka 7y ago
        Pilots train and will continue to train on wvr combat because those are the basic piloting and combat skills required regardless of what you're flying. They're going to continue drilling wvr even if they had a hypothetical perfectly stealth unobservable plane just because those are the drills that make a fighter pilot. Spend a couple days learning a flight combat sim like DCS and it will become crystal clear that stealth is not only an advantage, it is almost unbeatable by a 4th gen fighter without additional support. If you're in a 4th gen fighter, your offensive options are pretty much nonexistent against a low observable fighter. The best thing you can do is dodge the first 1/2 fox-3 it throws at you, turn off your radar, and get out while you still have a plane. We're not even talking about standoff weapons yet. Even if you somehow got into a wvr dogfight against an F-22, you'd still lose because it's one of a handful of fighters capable of supermaneuverability. [1] There are 187 operational F-22, they've been in service for 14 years, and they've had zero losses. Go ahead and try to find anything that comes even close. "The F-22 achieved Full Operational Capability (FOC) in December 2007, when General John Corley of Air Combat Command (ACC) officially declared the F-22s of the integrated active duty 1st Fighter Wing and Virginia Air National Guard 192d Fighter Wing fully operational.[151] This was followed by an Operational Readiness Inspection (ORI) of the integrated wing in April 2008, in which it was rated "excellent" in all categories, with a simulated kill-ratio of 221–0.[152]" Given the fact that there have been 0 losses and those planes haven't been sitting idle in storage for the past decade, it's a pretty good bet that their real world perf is better than the simulated 221-0. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJO0KzTgcMI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJO0KzTgcMI

michannne 7y ago

I'm sure that within the scope of meetings and trailing incompetent upper-management, that many tech companies don't look like they should make as much money as they do from the inside, yet somehow they remain among the most profitable companies worldwide. It's all about context. Find a stealth fighter that can best an F-22, until then, it's the top of the top.

jsiepkes 7y ago

I think you are confusing the F-22 with the F-35 (JSF). The F-22 actually works as far as I know.

dreamcompiler 7y ago
Yes, the F-22 is the one that works. It works well enough the US is not selling them to its allies, but they are selling the F-35 (to anybody stupid enough to buy them).
- adventured 7y ago
  > to anybody stupid enough to buy them You mean many of the elite militaries on the planet? Israel for example is not known for buying non-working trash as a primary to defend its skies with. Over time the majority of the best militaries will all fly the F35. Turkey must be a joke according to your premise, that's why they're so eager to get their hands on the F35. No, in fact Turkey has a top ~20 military in capability. "Australia, Canada, Denmark, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Turkey and the United Kingdom currently are in formal partnership with the United States on the F-35 program. Israel, Japan and South Korea have made orders through the foreign military sales process. Belgium also recently signed on to purchase platforms." [1] The F35 is the second best fighter that can be purchased, behind the F22. Its technology platform is superior to the F22 and far beyond anything anyone else has. Russia can't get their 5th gen planes to operate properly or get them into volume production (despite numerous failed declarations of such, and 20 years of development). China hasn't demonstrated that capability yet either. They're both two decades behind the US in 5th gen planes. The other European powers aren't even on the map when it comes to producing domestic 5th gen, they can't step up to that level at all. [1] https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2019/5/24/international-market-for-f-35-heats-up https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2019/5/24/i...
  - gscott 7y ago
    Israel has made a lot of their own modifications to the F-35 including a new wing design.
  - 7y ago

alwayseasy 7y ago

In the article "Clearly, performing at air shows doesn't require any stealth at all. In fact, the jets wear bolt-on radar-reflecting lenses so that their radar cross-section appears large on air traffic control radars. "