5 ms·

The German government is most likely deeply, deeply ashamed and embarrassed that its own engineers would have 'cheated'. Not only is Automotive Engineering the

The German government is most likely deeply, deeply ashamed and embarrassed that its own engineers would have 'cheated'. Not only is Automotive Engineering the pride of the nation but a lot of German industry and investment was tied to Diesel as a future low emissions transport technology. They're going to follow and prosecute this like blood hounds.

hef19898 7y ago
Point in case: Audi is a Bavarian company and the prosecutors are in Munich. That in a state with it's fair share of affairs between industry and politics is already telling a lot. And don't forget Stadler was jailed for quite a while for witness tempering. Not a good idea if your calls are under police surveillance. EDIT: Just how embarrassed our government really is is a good question. The role of our regulators is still not really clear. Prosecutors in Munich even went so far to subpoena the KBA (German automotive regulator). Fun fact, the German traffic ministry is and was lead by members of the Bavarian majority party. That implies some gits at the prosecution side. EDIT 2: Almost subpoenaed the KBA.
mindjiver 7y ago
I'm skeptical that this will turn into a conviction. The deep pockets of the auto industry takes them a long way into the different state and federal governments in Germany.
- w23j 7y ago
  Sure, but this isn't Audi that is indicted, but an individual. And he isn't even an employee any more.
- Tomte 7y ago
  Fortunately, Germany's judicial branch is independent. I'm sorry to hear that you are accustomed to another system.
hutzlibu 7y ago
"They're going to follow and prosecute this like blood hounds" No they won't. They do all they can, to not harm the important car sector anymore, than it already is. So they will continue to act like they do all they can to chase the single bad actors and then everyone hopefully finally forgets, there was something. As far as I know, no individual car owner in germany has any hope of getting a refund, after they were cheated in bying a "low emission diesel". The way the politic sees it, VW was already damaged enough by the US recompensation demands. It is politics and power they care about, not justice.
- dangerface 7y ago
  As you stated this is a public issue that has hurt the german car sectors public image, which has hurt sales and will continue to do so until the public image is repaired. One of the biggest selling point for German cars is that they are more efficient than the Americans this event has broken that public perception and until they fix it they will struggle to compete with cheaper American cars. If they don't restore the publics faith that the German car industry will deliver what they promise people like me will simply not buy German cars. > It is politics and power they care about, not justice. I agree with you but in this case the easiest way to solve the political issue and restore power is to deliver justice.
  - serial_dev 7y ago
    In my opinion, you oversimplified it. Yes, the German car sector's public image is hurt and they want to repair the public image, I agree with that. However, I wouldn't be so sure that the best way for them to repair the brand is by delivering justice. Does it really help the German car sector's reputation, if people will hear in the news for weeks how they investigate the case, who's responsible, how they figured these details out? I don't think so, because every time it'll be on the news that they caught someone, the news will also repeat the original sleazy act of (alleged?) cheating, and that sticks, that's what people will remember. However, if they just try to be not too loud about it, most people will forget in a year or two.
    - 7y ago
jellicle 7y ago
It is 2019 and this came out in 2015. At a minimum, these are the world's slowest blood hounds. I'm not privy to German politics but if the political situation is ANYTHING like what I would expect, diligent prosecution of corporate malfeasance is roughly the last priority of government prosecutors, well behind prosecuting jaywalking and spitting on the sidewalk.
- phoenixdblack 7y ago
  you are completely right, except for the fact that jaywalking isn't a crime in germany.
- skgoa 7y ago
  Sorry, but you are completely incorrect in this matter. White collar crime is prosecuted fiercly in Germany, especially when it's a case that got public attention. However it takes far longer than it would in the US, because prosecutors are extremely thorough to guarantee a conviction. We have far less of an acceptance of plea bargains. Pre-trial deals are almost unheard of, because the defendent can "come clean" at any time of the trial and the timing must not enter the judgement to their detriment. OTOH a defendent also has nothing to gain from co-operating early beyond whatever he/she is absolutely required by law to do. This means that the prosecussion will almost always have to do the entire work of proving beyond any reasonable doubt that the accused is guilty. Which they have to do on paper long before the first hearing is held. Hence, cases brought to trial in Germany are generally water-tight. Stadler is almost definitely going to prison. The only question is for how long and who else he implicates.
  - Scoundreller 7y ago
    But is there a difference between how, say, $1m in embezzling funds from a corporation or defrauding someone out of their money is prosecuted, versus doing something that props up your national industry?
    - wsy 7y ago
      No, as the case at hand shows. Actually, the prosecutors seem to have done an amazing job, given that usually top management manages to isolate themselves quite will from shady practices of their corporation.

hef19898 7y ago

Point in case: Audi is a Bavarian company and the prosecutors are in Munich. That in a state with it's fair share of affairs between industry and politics is already telling a lot. And don't forget Stadler was jailed for quite a while for witness tempering. Not a good idea if your calls are under police surveillance. EDIT: Just how embarrassed our government really is is a good question. The role of our regulators is still not really clear. Prosecutors in Munich even went so far to subpoena the KBA (German automotive regulator). Fun fact, the German traffic ministry is and was lead by members of the Bavarian majority party. That implies some gits at the prosecution side. EDIT 2: Almost subpoenaed the KBA.

mindjiver 7y ago

I'm skeptical that this will turn into a conviction. The deep pockets of the auto industry takes them a long way into the different state and federal governments in Germany.

w23j 7y ago
Sure, but this isn't Audi that is indicted, but an individual. And he isn't even an employee any more.
Tomte 7y ago
Fortunately, Germany's judicial branch is independent. I'm sorry to hear that you are accustomed to another system.

hutzlibu 7y ago

"They're going to follow and prosecute this like blood hounds" No they won't. They do all they can, to not harm the important car sector anymore, than it already is. So they will continue to act like they do all they can to chase the single bad actors and then everyone hopefully finally forgets, there was something. As far as I know, no individual car owner in germany has any hope of getting a refund, after they were cheated in bying a "low emission diesel". The way the politic sees it, VW was already damaged enough by the US recompensation demands. It is politics and power they care about, not justice.

dangerface 7y ago
As you stated this is a public issue that has hurt the german car sectors public image, which has hurt sales and will continue to do so until the public image is repaired. One of the biggest selling point for German cars is that they are more efficient than the Americans this event has broken that public perception and until they fix it they will struggle to compete with cheaper American cars. If they don't restore the publics faith that the German car industry will deliver what they promise people like me will simply not buy German cars. > It is politics and power they care about, not justice. I agree with you but in this case the easiest way to solve the political issue and restore power is to deliver justice.
- serial_dev 7y ago
  In my opinion, you oversimplified it. Yes, the German car sector's public image is hurt and they want to repair the public image, I agree with that. However, I wouldn't be so sure that the best way for them to repair the brand is by delivering justice. Does it really help the German car sector's reputation, if people will hear in the news for weeks how they investigate the case, who's responsible, how they figured these details out? I don't think so, because every time it'll be on the news that they caught someone, the news will also repeat the original sleazy act of (alleged?) cheating, and that sticks, that's what people will remember. However, if they just try to be not too loud about it, most people will forget in a year or two.
  - 7y ago

jellicle 7y ago

It is 2019 and this came out in 2015. At a minimum, these are the world's slowest blood hounds. I'm not privy to German politics but if the political situation is ANYTHING like what I would expect, diligent prosecution of corporate malfeasance is roughly the last priority of government prosecutors, well behind prosecuting jaywalking and spitting on the sidewalk.

phoenixdblack 7y ago
you are completely right, except for the fact that jaywalking isn't a crime in germany.
skgoa 7y ago
Sorry, but you are completely incorrect in this matter. White collar crime is prosecuted fiercly in Germany, especially when it's a case that got public attention. However it takes far longer than it would in the US, because prosecutors are extremely thorough to guarantee a conviction. We have far less of an acceptance of plea bargains. Pre-trial deals are almost unheard of, because the defendent can "come clean" at any time of the trial and the timing must not enter the judgement to their detriment. OTOH a defendent also has nothing to gain from co-operating early beyond whatever he/she is absolutely required by law to do. This means that the prosecussion will almost always have to do the entire work of proving beyond any reasonable doubt that the accused is guilty. Which they have to do on paper long before the first hearing is held. Hence, cases brought to trial in Germany are generally water-tight. Stadler is almost definitely going to prison. The only question is for how long and who else he implicates.
- Scoundreller 7y ago
  But is there a difference between how, say, $1m in embezzling funds from a corporation or defrauding someone out of their money is prosecuted, versus doing something that props up your national industry?
  - wsy 7y ago
    No, as the case at hand shows. Actually, the prosecutors seem to have done an amazing job, given that usually top management manages to isolate themselves quite will from shady practices of their corporation.