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> "And if it was just flat-earthers, I’d say fine, it’s harmless. But you’ve got anti-vaxxers and Men’s Rights Advocates and anti-global warming folks and TERFs
by Maximus9000 7y ago
> "And if it was just flat-earthers, I’d say fine, it’s harmless. But you’ve got anti-vaxxers and Men’s Rights Advocates and anti-global warming folks and TERFs and incels out there, all fueled by one central pivot point of humanity – namely, that it’s lonely being wrong."
It seems quite odd that he lumps "Mens rights advocates" in there. Are they crazy?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- brandonfro 7y agoIt probably comes from the fact that “Men’s rights activists” are somewhat extreme considering men have dominated every aspect of society (e.g. politics, religion, sports, etc.). The idea of “Men’s rights” seems redundant to most people in my estimation.
- 1000units 7y agoPlease take this talk of gender supremacy elsewhere. It is wildly outmoded and unwelcome here, at least by me. Thank you and good day.
- arkh 7y ago> considering men have dominated every aspect of society Some men. And a minority of them.
- brandonfro 7y agoI’d say quite a lot when you consider local municipalities, churches (at least in the south), and small businesses. Historically, high positions in those places have been held by predominantly men. This isn’t news and it’s irrefutable. Why does it feel like people are combatant to historical facts?
- rubinelli 7y agoThe frustrating part is the logical leap: You are a man, men have historically occupied privileged positions, therefore you are privileged. A young man trying to find his first job without experience doesn't feel privileged, nor does one that suffers domestic violence. But instead of receiving support, they are told to man up.
- toasterlovin 7y agoFWIW, men are also overrepresented in the worst that life has to offer. They're more likely to die on the job, commit suicide, and be murdered; they're expected to fight a nation's wars and risk their lives to rescue fellow citizens from perilous situations; and are less likely to attend college and more likely to end up in prison. There are MRAs and MRA-adjacent people who are gross misogynists. But there are MRAs who make compelling points. Argue against the best version of your opponent's argument, not the worst.
- arkh 7y agoBecause low positions in most places have been and still are held predominantly by men. Should more women vie for those positions too?
- belorn 7y agoIf we go by history then both high positions and low positions are held predominantly by men. Bottom 1%, majority of those that are homeless, almost all men. Wast majority of people conscripted to die in war, almost all men. Prison populations, predominantly men. If you go by reproductive success or age, again men has it much worse on the average then women. The data is irrefutable that when it comes to the people that has it the worst outcomes, men is the predominant group.
- bigiain 7y ago#notallmen :sigh: Way way too many of us, and way too few of us who call them on it. "The standard you walk past, is the standard you accept."
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- RobertRoberts 7y agoAre you suggesting men don't have the right to stand up against abuse?
- brandonfro 7y agoI am not
- RobertRoberts 7y agoThen are you saying it's wrong for men to be activists in support of their rights? Maybe you can clarify your previous statement some. The only rights I've seen or heard people being "men's activists" for (which seem to include a lot of women too) is regarding abuses against men.
- ziddoap 7y agoEvery group has a subset of loud, crazy, vehement followers.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- HyperTalk2 7y agoSounds like he's the type of person who thinks getting upvotes from his fellow redditors is more alluring than being right. Thank you for confirming that there is no reason to click this link.
- daenz 7y agoThe Red Pill documentary by (feminist!) Cassie Jaye opened my eyes to what MRAs are all about. It's a fascinating watch, and I'd honestly be astonished at anyone who comes away from watching it thinking that they have no legitimacy. Her TED talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WMuzhQXJoY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WMuzhQXJoY
- slowhadoken 7y agoYeah, I don’t like how the term “men’s rights advocate” is thrown around. Maybe some groups that use that term are crazy or something but men deserve rights and advocates for those rights. Men are often treated as second class citizens. People laughing at that is senseless.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- dragonwriter 7y agoMen are politically, economically, and socially dominant in pretty much every society on Earth, though there are a few where that has been reduced so that women are near parity. Advocating for “Men’s rights” pretty much anywhere on Earth is like advocating for “White rights” or “Christisn rights” in the USA (and, in fact, there's substantial overlap between those groups.)
- leereeves 7y agoAnd feminists in the US have managed to change the attitudes and laws that favor men while leaving the ones that favor women intact. That's not equality. Many MRAs are men who were victims of domestic violence, or false allegations, or bias in the family courts or schools, who saw the system turn against them because of outdated assumptions that men are by default the guilty party.
- slowhadoken 7y agoI don’t understand what you’re getting at. The law should be universal and impartial. Clearly citizens should fight for their personal rights male or female. The majority can be oppressed and they should protect their rights as well as a minority group. The two aren’t at odds with each other. In fact if anyone’s rights are tread on we all suffer.
- repolfx 7y agoIf that were true, the law would still privilege men. It doesn't - in most western countries it now radically privileges women, on the basis of gender. Men may be "dominant" numerically but the author of this blog post was a man. Numerical dominance doesn't help if a large subset of men want women to have more rights than men out of some misguided identity politics.
- lopmotr 7y agoNone of MRAs, TERFs, or Incels should be listed there. They don't hold beliefs about nature that can be judged as wrong. They just want things. But the author is apparently too entrenched in his political camp to see the difference between "enemy" and "wrong".
- herbstein 7y agoThe "Mens rights advocates" reffered to here are a specific subset of activist for "mens rights". These people often focus more on putting down women than trying advance men and women in unison. That's not to say that a social progressive movement focusing on men and their plights is at odds with the modern feminist movement. Just look at the subreddit /r/menslib for information on that.
- leereeves 7y agoIn some ways it the conflict with feminists is inevitable, for example when feminists demanded that every man accused of rape be punished, ignoring the rights of the accused and the existence of false allegations. It was MRAs that stood up to that, while menslib seemed to support it.
- phil248 7y ago"when feminists demanded that every man accused of rape be punished" Where did you get this idea? That sounds like precisely the type of exaggerated nonsense that fuels things like the Men's Rights movement in the first place.
- leereeves 7y agoUnder Obama's policy, students accused of rape were frequently denied due process, and yet, despite not being allowed to present their case, the burden of proof was on the accused. Many innocent men were punished. In one case, the court said the accused was not provided any information about the factual basis of the charges against him, was not able to examine the evidence supporting the victim's statements and was not allowed to appear before the panel deciding his case.[1] In another case, the court found that the university violated the accused's due process rights by presuming his guilt ahead of a hearing, not allowing the accused student access to witnesses and evidence, and informing a hearing panel of his guilt instead of letting the panel reach its own conclusion.[1] In some cases they were even punishing people who were proven innocent, because the tribunals refused to hear evidence proving their innocence.[2] We saw this attitude again in the Kavanaugh hearings, when feminists were demanding that Kavanaugh's nomination be denied because of unproven allegations. As Hillary put it, accusers "have the right to be believed", which she later clarified as: every accuser "should be believed at first until they are disbelieved based on evidence". In other words, the accused should be considered guilty until proven innocent. 1: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/04/14/several-students-win-recent-lawsuits-against-colleges-punished-them-sexual-assault https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/04/14/several-stude... 2: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/campus-sexual-assault-policies-are-unfair-to-the-accused-this-case-shows-how/2017/08/16/2ab6781e-7de0-11e7-a669-b400c5c7e1cc_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.502577c2950e https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/campus-sexual-assaul...
- phil248 7y agoAre you familiar with the men's rights movement? The term or concept of "men's rights" could certainly be discussed in a neutral, non-crazy way. But the actual movement as it exists today and the logic that commonly defines it is absolutely as detached from reality as any of those other cult-like ideologies.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- leereeves 7y agoDo you have any specific examples of what you mean? Because being angry that Cardi B is still welcome among the Hollywood and Washington elite after admitting to drugging and robbing people (men, specifically) doesn't seem crazy at all. Nor does concern for child grooms (boys forced into marriage at 12 years old). Or a divorced father upset that his children are being taken away by the mother in violation of the custody agreement. (Those are the top posts of r/mensrights right now.)
- poloniculmov 7y agoYou can see that they're always bashing women and feminism as the cause for these problems, instead of actually trying to fix the issues. The main difference between feminists and MRAs, is that feminists actually are trying to solve their issues and MRAs bitch on the internet that women are bad. They're doing absolutely nothing to solve the real issues that men are suffering from.
- leereeves 7y agoThe second top post on r/feminism right now says: "I was just going off on my mom about how all men are horrible"
- poloniculmov 7y agoDid you actually read it? They're complaining about double standards in how boys and girls are raised and how "boys will be boys" is shit.
- dragonwriter 7y ago> It seems quite odd that he lumps "Mens rights advocates" in there. Are they crazy? Crazy or not, MRA invariably is grounded in a worldview as at odds with facts as climate denialism or anti-vaxx advocacy. (Honestly, I think TERFs and incels, who are not categorically factually delusional, are the ones that don't fit, though it's possible the use of “wrong” was meant to encompass not only factual delusion but also what the author sees as moral error.)
- leereeves 7y agoHere are some relevant facts: Boys are far more likely to be medicated, punished, or expelled from school and as a result of that lifelong inequality, only 40% of college students are men. Women receive 97% of alimony and win custody 80% of the time. Men are far more likely to be prosecuted or convicted when accused of a crime. 90% of prisoners, 70% of homeless people, and 75% of suicides are men. Why would you think speaking about things like this is comparable to being anti-vaxx?