6 ms·

Amazon seems to be doing alright regardless.

by izzydata 7y ago

umvi 7y ago
I know a lot of engineers that work for Amazon that are happy. Warehouse workers on the other hand...
- throwawaysea 7y ago
  ...are experiencing pay and conditions that are vastly better than other warehouses. See https://quillette.com/2019/07/19/the-problem-with-tourist-journalism/ https://quillette.com/2019/07/19/the-problem-with-tourist-jo...
  - iwasakabukiman 7y ago
    I can’t tell if that’s sarcasm or not... That story was basically a plant from Amazon and Quillette is absolutely not a high quality news source.
    - throwawaysea 7y ago
      > That story was basically a plant from Amazon Evidence? > Quillette is absolutely not a high quality news source Really? I find their articles to be written well. They are respectful and balanced in their tone, and provide a lot of evidence for their points. Are you sure you don't just disagree with their centrist perspective? You've not actually offered any critique of this article.
      - jkachmar 7y ago
        Quillette does not feature a centrist perspective. See Media Bias Fact Check’s overview, in which they’re considered “Right” and to feature pseudoscience and poor reporting [1]. Also see the Wikipedia page on Media Bias Fact Check for citations to show that they’re reputable [2]. See also AllSides' overview, in which they’re considered to “lean right” [3]. [1] https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/quillette/ https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/quillette/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Bias/Fact_Check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Bias/Fact_Check [3] https://www.allsides.com/news-source/quillette-media-bias https://www.allsides.com/news-source/quillette-media-bias
        throwawaysea 7y ago
        Media Bias Fact Check is NOT reputable. Your own Wikipedia link says the following: > The Columbia Journalism Review describes Media Bias/Fact Check as an amateur attempt at categorizing media bias and Van Zandt as an "armchair media analyst." > The Poynter Institute notes, "Media Bias/Fact Check is a widely cited source for news stories and even studies about misinformation, despite the fact that its method is in no way scientific." I read through the Media Bias Fact check article on Quillette and it makes bold claims about Quillette having poor sourcing or featuring pseudoscience but it provides weak or cherry-picked examples from a much larger body of published articles. For example, it mentions 'hereditarianism' as pseudoscientific, even though there is peer-reviewed published research supporting it that is referenced in the Quillette article they are critiquing. It also tries to discredit Quillette based on association - it mentions a couple people who have written articles on Quillette and discusses _their_ reputation, rather than directly factually refuting specific points. If anything, this write-up on Media Bias Fact Check is itself super biased. AllSides is more reputable but they have also rated Quillette as Center for long periods of time previously. AllSides also mentions this about Quillette alongside their current "lean right" rating: > Worth noting: some on the team thought Quillette deserved a Center or Lean Left media bias rating. This is because Quillette features classically liberal arguments, but classically liberal ideas are now more commonly associated with the Right. Our confidence rating for Quillette's media bias rating is "Initial or Low." Also, AllSides's methodology is US-centric - which is different from centrism more broadly. > The AllSides Media Bias RatingTM reflects the average judgment of the American people. We don't use a convoluted mathematical or artificial intelligence model, but instead have regular people representing the broad spectrum of Americans blindly rate the bias of articles. That produces a fair, verifiable bias rating. Centrism also means neutral or truth-seeking to some people, whereas to others it refers to a relative position on a political spectrum. I find Quillette to be generally centrist in that it is neutral/truth-seeking because they are willing to take controversial positions and discuss them logically, in depth, with substantial evidence. By and large, Quillette features high quality articles and significant sourcing. No journalistic outlet is perfect and it wouldn't take me long to pull out examples in the NYT, WaPo, WSJ, or other big publications to try and paint a negative image of them as Media Bias Fact Check did. And to get back on point, no one has refuted what this particular article claims. Amazon has higher pay, better benefits, and better conditions than other warehouse jobs. There is even a comment in this very HN discussion from an Amazon warehouse worker that says "I'm part of the career choice program which pays for 95% of my college tuition, fees, and books for an IT program (which I chose)." And this isn't the only comment in this discussion from an Amazon warehouse worker. If there are claims otherwise, that other warehouse jobs are better, name them and cite evidence.
  - zemo 7y ago
    on twitter, @amazonnews tweeted a link to that and they got ratioed so hard that they deleted the tweet a few hours later. that is ... not a good piece.
    - throwawaysea 7y ago
      Can you critique the article's points or the author's experiences specifically? Talking about Twitter tropes like ratios is not substantive.
- mrb 7y ago
  It's just one random data point but one of my personal friends said: «I still have many friends & family working in Amazon fulfillment centers across the country, and every single one of them says it’s the best job they’ve ever had.» https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1154275824951943168 https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1154275824951943168
  - nguoi 7y ago
    >I’m also sure that lots of folks don’t truly understand blue collar working conditions in other industries. I do agree with this. I briefly had a few blue collar jobs: it's hard for workers to assert their existing rights, culturally and legally.
- MaxBarraclough 7y ago
  The overwork has been well reported, but the unpaid time spent in mandatory daily security checks, seems to get overlooked. Somehow, US courts decided that's allowed. Could've sworn UK courts came to a similar decision recently, but I can't find a source. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/2014/12/09/05c67c0c-7fb9-11e4-81fd-8c4814dfa9d7_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/2014/12/0...
- Consultant32452 7y ago
  There's an Amazon warehouse near me. My neighbor works for USPS. Amazon is poaching tons of their employees and it's really hurting USPS because Amazon is so much better. If he wasn't holding out for one more year to get full retirement from USPS he would have jumped ship too. Instead, he's hoping to work for Amazon part time during retirement. I'm not suggesting that there aren't problems with Amazon warehouses, but I think a lot of the reaction is from highly educated wealthy liberal types who don't know what it's like to work hard labor jobs.
  - Jax2_Hannah 7y ago
    I can't speak for others, but I have never worked for a warehouse job until now, and it isn't as bad as I thought. I was considering working for UPS, but after recently giving birth, I couldn't lift the minimum weight they required for me. So I thought Amazon would be a viable option. I make more than I would at UPS, and it's very easy compared to it. I know because my husband works there. I honestly don't understand why some people would complain about Amazon but to get media attention. That's my opinion.
- Matticus_Rex 7y ago
  Warehouse work sucks. Amazon's warehouse work is above average for warehouse work.
  - skyyler 7y ago
    By what metric? I have friends that have been working warehouses in Ohio since the early 2000s and they have vented frustrations to me about how Amazon is causing a race to the bottom for warehouse labor. I've heard a lot of horror stories about Amazon warehouses. I'm sure a lot of it is FUD or whatever, but it seems that even Walmart has better conditions.
    - hanniabu 7y ago
      Have you ever been in a real warehouse? One that's baking in the sun in the summer, no AC because it's too costly, probably 100 degrees inside, no ventilation, pallet dust everywhere and you get a nice inhale when something is moved on the floor, not being in a technologically present company where machines break constantly and you need to do a lot of manual work in these conditions lifting a 35lb box every 8-12 seconds for 12 hours....
      - vernie 7y ago
        No true warehouse.
        hanniabu 7y ago
        This warehouse in specific that I'm referencing is operated by a Fortune 100 company.
      - mjparrott 7y ago
        Yes, this was my first job as an 'employee' of a staffing company. They took $11/hour and gave me $7/hour to re-package and re-palletize boxes of P&G products. Literally we would open a box of 4 shampoo bottles, take the bottles out and then repackage then into a box of 6 bottles and stack them back up on a pallet. To open the boxes we put them on a conveyor belt that went through an oven to melt the glue on the box. I had to stand at the exit of the oven and grab the scalding hot glue and rip the tape off the boxes as fast as I possibly could. The scalding hot glue would stick to your hands while hot air was blowing in your face out of the oven. No AC. 8 hour shift 7 to 3 with no lunch break, only two 15 minute breaks to use the bathroom (couldn't go otherwise). No AC in the warehouse in the hot summer in the midwest. Another fun job was to re-palletize boxes. A forklift operator would lay an empty pallet on the ground, then put a row of 25 full pallets next to it in a long row. You had to unstack the 2nd pallet onto the empty one using a new stacking pattern that was more stable. Then the 2nd pallet would be empty. Repeat the process down the row as fast as you can go getting cuts on your hands from the cardboard boxes, leaning over your back lifting heavy boxes without AC in a hot warehouse.
starpilot 7y ago
And the entire gaming industry.

Amazon seems to be doing alright regardless.

umvi 7y ago

I know a lot of engineers that work for Amazon that are happy. Warehouse workers on the other hand...

throwawaysea 7y ago
...are experiencing pay and conditions that are vastly better than other warehouses. See https://quillette.com/2019/07/19/the-problem-with-tourist-journalism/ https://quillette.com/2019/07/19/the-problem-with-tourist-jo...
- iwasakabukiman 7y ago
  I can’t tell if that’s sarcasm or not... That story was basically a plant from Amazon and Quillette is absolutely not a high quality news source.
  - throwawaysea 7y ago
    > That story was basically a plant from Amazon Evidence? > Quillette is absolutely not a high quality news source Really? I find their articles to be written well. They are respectful and balanced in their tone, and provide a lot of evidence for their points. Are you sure you don't just disagree with their centrist perspective? You've not actually offered any critique of this article.
    - jkachmar 7y ago
      Quillette does not feature a centrist perspective. See Media Bias Fact Check’s overview, in which they’re considered “Right” and to feature pseudoscience and poor reporting [1]. Also see the Wikipedia page on Media Bias Fact Check for citations to show that they’re reputable [2]. See also AllSides' overview, in which they’re considered to “lean right” [3]. [1] https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/quillette/ https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/quillette/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Bias/Fact_Check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Bias/Fact_Check [3] https://www.allsides.com/news-source/quillette-media-bias https://www.allsides.com/news-source/quillette-media-bias
      - throwawaysea 7y ago
        Media Bias Fact Check is NOT reputable. Your own Wikipedia link says the following: > The Columbia Journalism Review describes Media Bias/Fact Check as an amateur attempt at categorizing media bias and Van Zandt as an "armchair media analyst." > The Poynter Institute notes, "Media Bias/Fact Check is a widely cited source for news stories and even studies about misinformation, despite the fact that its method is in no way scientific." I read through the Media Bias Fact check article on Quillette and it makes bold claims about Quillette having poor sourcing or featuring pseudoscience but it provides weak or cherry-picked examples from a much larger body of published articles. For example, it mentions 'hereditarianism' as pseudoscientific, even though there is peer-reviewed published research supporting it that is referenced in the Quillette article they are critiquing. It also tries to discredit Quillette based on association - it mentions a couple people who have written articles on Quillette and discusses _their_ reputation, rather than directly factually refuting specific points. If anything, this write-up on Media Bias Fact Check is itself super biased. AllSides is more reputable but they have also rated Quillette as Center for long periods of time previously. AllSides also mentions this about Quillette alongside their current "lean right" rating: > Worth noting: some on the team thought Quillette deserved a Center or Lean Left media bias rating. This is because Quillette features classically liberal arguments, but classically liberal ideas are now more commonly associated with the Right. Our confidence rating for Quillette's media bias rating is "Initial or Low." Also, AllSides's methodology is US-centric - which is different from centrism more broadly. > The AllSides Media Bias RatingTM reflects the average judgment of the American people. We don't use a convoluted mathematical or artificial intelligence model, but instead have regular people representing the broad spectrum of Americans blindly rate the bias of articles. That produces a fair, verifiable bias rating. Centrism also means neutral or truth-seeking to some people, whereas to others it refers to a relative position on a political spectrum. I find Quillette to be generally centrist in that it is neutral/truth-seeking because they are willing to take controversial positions and discuss them logically, in depth, with substantial evidence. By and large, Quillette features high quality articles and significant sourcing. No journalistic outlet is perfect and it wouldn't take me long to pull out examples in the NYT, WaPo, WSJ, or other big publications to try and paint a negative image of them as Media Bias Fact Check did. And to get back on point, no one has refuted what this particular article claims. Amazon has higher pay, better benefits, and better conditions than other warehouse jobs. There is even a comment in this very HN discussion from an Amazon warehouse worker that says "I'm part of the career choice program which pays for 95% of my college tuition, fees, and books for an IT program (which I chose)." And this isn't the only comment in this discussion from an Amazon warehouse worker. If there are claims otherwise, that other warehouse jobs are better, name them and cite evidence.
- zemo 7y ago
  on twitter, @amazonnews tweeted a link to that and they got ratioed so hard that they deleted the tweet a few hours later. that is ... not a good piece.
  - throwawaysea 7y ago
    Can you critique the article's points or the author's experiences specifically? Talking about Twitter tropes like ratios is not substantive.
mrb 7y ago
It's just one random data point but one of my personal friends said: «I still have many friends & family working in Amazon fulfillment centers across the country, and every single one of them says it’s the best job they’ve ever had.» https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1154275824951943168 https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1154275824951943168
- nguoi 7y ago
  >I’m also sure that lots of folks don’t truly understand blue collar working conditions in other industries. I do agree with this. I briefly had a few blue collar jobs: it's hard for workers to assert their existing rights, culturally and legally.
MaxBarraclough 7y ago
The overwork has been well reported, but the unpaid time spent in mandatory daily security checks, seems to get overlooked. Somehow, US courts decided that's allowed. Could've sworn UK courts came to a similar decision recently, but I can't find a source. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/2014/12/09/05c67c0c-7fb9-11e4-81fd-8c4814dfa9d7_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/2014/12/0...
Consultant32452 7y ago
There's an Amazon warehouse near me. My neighbor works for USPS. Amazon is poaching tons of their employees and it's really hurting USPS because Amazon is so much better. If he wasn't holding out for one more year to get full retirement from USPS he would have jumped ship too. Instead, he's hoping to work for Amazon part time during retirement. I'm not suggesting that there aren't problems with Amazon warehouses, but I think a lot of the reaction is from highly educated wealthy liberal types who don't know what it's like to work hard labor jobs.
- Jax2_Hannah 7y ago
  I can't speak for others, but I have never worked for a warehouse job until now, and it isn't as bad as I thought. I was considering working for UPS, but after recently giving birth, I couldn't lift the minimum weight they required for me. So I thought Amazon would be a viable option. I make more than I would at UPS, and it's very easy compared to it. I know because my husband works there. I honestly don't understand why some people would complain about Amazon but to get media attention. That's my opinion.
Matticus_Rex 7y ago
Warehouse work sucks. Amazon's warehouse work is above average for warehouse work.
- skyyler 7y ago
  By what metric? I have friends that have been working warehouses in Ohio since the early 2000s and they have vented frustrations to me about how Amazon is causing a race to the bottom for warehouse labor. I've heard a lot of horror stories about Amazon warehouses. I'm sure a lot of it is FUD or whatever, but it seems that even Walmart has better conditions.
  - hanniabu 7y ago
    Have you ever been in a real warehouse? One that's baking in the sun in the summer, no AC because it's too costly, probably 100 degrees inside, no ventilation, pallet dust everywhere and you get a nice inhale when something is moved on the floor, not being in a technologically present company where machines break constantly and you need to do a lot of manual work in these conditions lifting a 35lb box every 8-12 seconds for 12 hours....
    - vernie 7y ago
      No true warehouse.
      - hanniabu 7y ago
        This warehouse in specific that I'm referencing is operated by a Fortune 100 company.
    - mjparrott 7y ago
      Yes, this was my first job as an 'employee' of a staffing company. They took $11/hour and gave me $7/hour to re-package and re-palletize boxes of P&G products. Literally we would open a box of 4 shampoo bottles, take the bottles out and then repackage then into a box of 6 bottles and stack them back up on a pallet. To open the boxes we put them on a conveyor belt that went through an oven to melt the glue on the box. I had to stand at the exit of the oven and grab the scalding hot glue and rip the tape off the boxes as fast as I possibly could. The scalding hot glue would stick to your hands while hot air was blowing in your face out of the oven. No AC. 8 hour shift 7 to 3 with no lunch break, only two 15 minute breaks to use the bathroom (couldn't go otherwise). No AC in the warehouse in the hot summer in the midwest. Another fun job was to re-palletize boxes. A forklift operator would lay an empty pallet on the ground, then put a row of 25 full pallets next to it in a long row. You had to unstack the 2nd pallet onto the empty one using a new stacking pattern that was more stable. Then the 2nd pallet would be empty. Repeat the process down the row as fast as you can go getting cuts on your hands from the cardboard boxes, leaning over your back lifting heavy boxes without AC in a hot warehouse.

starpilot 7y ago

And the entire gaming industry.