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As much as I love what Tesla is doing there, I'd like to point out that they are not the only or even the biggest player ine the field: https://en.wikipedia.or

by Iv 7y ago

As much as I love what Tesla is doing there, I'd like to point out that they are not the only or even the biggest player ine the field: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_storage_power_station#Largest_grid_batteries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_storage_power_station#... There are other tech than lithium ion (namely, Sodium-sulphur) that seem more appropriate for applications where weight is not an issue.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Faaak 7y ago
> they are not the only or even the biggest player ine the field Well, from your link, they indeed _are_ the biggest player by power ?
- amelius 7y ago
  More power only means they run out of energy quicker :) Energy is the more informative metric here. You can easily construct a low-energy storage solution that generates huge amounts of power for a very short time. The power column is only a result of the number of households and outage duration that the plant was designed for.
  - Faaak 7y ago
    More power also means higher bids and more frequency control which is very useful too for 1st layer ancillary services. Energy is good, but power is also very important. You can stabilize the frequency (with active power) and the voltage (with reactive power). Both are traded and needed.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
Cthulhu_ 7y ago
The downside on those ones seems to be that they need to be heated (and kept at a heat) of 300-350 degrees and they are quite corrosive if there is an emergency. Not saying li-ion batteries are safe, but they and how Tesla has modularized them give me a lot more confidence to leave in an unattended location. Of course, it's all situational so there's a place and purpose for these things as well.
- rthomas6 7y ago
  If weight/volume is not an issue, there are lots and lots of technologies that will work well for energy storage. Compressed air, flywheels, heated water, lead-acid.
  - tomp 7y ago
    Are those (e.g. flywheels, compressed air) production-ready or just start-up ideas? Also flywheels have a pretty destructive worst-case failure mode... > heated water How does that work (specifically for storing electricity)?
    - fulafel 7y ago
      Re energy storage generally, heating is a top energy user in many parts of the world and I think relevant to the conversation. In places with CHP plants and district heating systems, the thermal battery concept is tried and tested. Since the system is already based on circulating hot water around, putting some storage tanks/caverns in the system is straightforward.
    - inscionent 7y ago
      Not if the flywheel is in space!
    - leetbulb 7y ago
      Many data centers use flywheels
    - Iv 7y ago
      > flywheels have a pretty destructive worst-case failure mode... Do they? If their casing is solid enough, the worst that they can do is damage themselves internally and heat up a bit. There is no buildup of pressure, leakage of chemicals or risk of a chemical fire.
mikorym 7y ago
There was once a guy called Johan Coetzer who stumbled upon more funding than he could spend and ended up with a project called Zebra. [1] Their biggest success, I am told, was however single use batteries and the (unverified) rumour that I was told is that they built a matchbox sized singe use battery that in theory could power a car for 400 kms. [1] https://www.batteriesinternational.com/2016/09/22/battery-pioneers-johan-coetzer/ https://www.batteriesinternational.com/2016/09/22/battery-pi...
- MertsA 7y ago
  >the (unverified) rumour that I was told is that they built a matchbox sized singe use battery that in theory could power a car for 400 kms. Unless it was run off of antimatter this is just flat out made up. Even if you start with the assumption that that matchbox sized battery was 100% solid aluminum that was oxidized to aluminum oxide to release energy and 100% of that energy was usable power that still only gives you 2.2MJ of energy. To put this into perspective a 15 gallon tank of gas contains ~1940MJ worth of energy and while an internal combustion engine is relatively inefficient, it's not like it's going to use almost a thousand times as much energy to go the same distance.
  - mikorym 7y ago
    Why aluminum?
    - MertsA 7y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#/media/File:Energy_density.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#/media/File:Ene... Man I wish HN had reply notifications.
codeulike 7y ago
They're not claiming to be the only or the biggest player in the field. They're claiming to be cheaper and faster to build than the incumbents. ... to achieve significant cost and time savings compared to other battery systems and traditional fossil fuel power plants.
stubish 7y ago
Does anyone else have a turnkey system like this? From here it looks like they are the only player in the field, at least for a little while. It looks like a product that can be directly sold to federal, state and municipal organizations around the world. Perhaps even to for-profit investment funds. Or high energy consumption industries like aluminum switching to solar or wind production. A product on the market that you can buy, rather than a technology you need to build something with.

by Iv 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Faaak 7y ago

> they are not the only or even the biggest player ine the field Well, from your link, they indeed _are_ the biggest player by power ?

amelius 7y ago
More power only means they run out of energy quicker :) Energy is the more informative metric here. You can easily construct a low-energy storage solution that generates huge amounts of power for a very short time. The power column is only a result of the number of households and outage duration that the plant was designed for.
- Faaak 7y ago
  More power also means higher bids and more frequency control which is very useful too for 1st layer ancillary services. Energy is good, but power is also very important. You can stabilize the frequency (with active power) and the voltage (with reactive power). Both are traded and needed.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]

Cthulhu_ 7y ago

The downside on those ones seems to be that they need to be heated (and kept at a heat) of 300-350 degrees and they are quite corrosive if there is an emergency. Not saying li-ion batteries are safe, but they and how Tesla has modularized them give me a lot more confidence to leave in an unattended location. Of course, it's all situational so there's a place and purpose for these things as well.

rthomas6 7y ago
If weight/volume is not an issue, there are lots and lots of technologies that will work well for energy storage. Compressed air, flywheels, heated water, lead-acid.
- tomp 7y ago
  Are those (e.g. flywheels, compressed air) production-ready or just start-up ideas? Also flywheels have a pretty destructive worst-case failure mode... > heated water How does that work (specifically for storing electricity)?
  - fulafel 7y ago
    Re energy storage generally, heating is a top energy user in many parts of the world and I think relevant to the conversation. In places with CHP plants and district heating systems, the thermal battery concept is tried and tested. Since the system is already based on circulating hot water around, putting some storage tanks/caverns in the system is straightforward.
  - inscionent 7y ago
    Not if the flywheel is in space!
  - leetbulb 7y ago
    Many data centers use flywheels
  - Iv 7y ago
    > flywheels have a pretty destructive worst-case failure mode... Do they? If their casing is solid enough, the worst that they can do is damage themselves internally and heat up a bit. There is no buildup of pressure, leakage of chemicals or risk of a chemical fire.

mikorym 7y ago

There was once a guy called Johan Coetzer who stumbled upon more funding than he could spend and ended up with a project called Zebra. [1] Their biggest success, I am told, was however single use batteries and the (unverified) rumour that I was told is that they built a matchbox sized singe use battery that in theory could power a car for 400 kms. [1] https://www.batteriesinternational.com/2016/09/22/battery-pioneers-johan-coetzer/ https://www.batteriesinternational.com/2016/09/22/battery-pi...

MertsA 7y ago
>the (unverified) rumour that I was told is that they built a matchbox sized singe use battery that in theory could power a car for 400 kms. Unless it was run off of antimatter this is just flat out made up. Even if you start with the assumption that that matchbox sized battery was 100% solid aluminum that was oxidized to aluminum oxide to release energy and 100% of that energy was usable power that still only gives you 2.2MJ of energy. To put this into perspective a 15 gallon tank of gas contains ~1940MJ worth of energy and while an internal combustion engine is relatively inefficient, it's not like it's going to use almost a thousand times as much energy to go the same distance.
- mikorym 7y ago
  Why aluminum?
  - MertsA 7y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#/media/File:Energy_density.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#/media/File:Ene... Man I wish HN had reply notifications.

codeulike 7y ago

They're not claiming to be the only or the biggest player in the field. They're claiming to be cheaper and faster to build than the incumbents. ... to achieve significant cost and time savings compared to other battery systems and traditional fossil fuel power plants.

stubish 7y ago

Does anyone else have a turnkey system like this? From here it looks like they are the only player in the field, at least for a little while. It looks like a product that can be directly sold to federal, state and municipal organizations around the world. Perhaps even to for-profit investment funds. Or high energy consumption industries like aluminum switching to solar or wind production. A product on the market that you can buy, rather than a technology you need to build something with.