12 ms·

Most internet service providers are gone – Sonic has survived and thrived

192 points by CaliforniaKarl 7y ago

incomplete 7y ago
sonic customer here (past through sonic, currently through LMI.net as a reseller). they're the best ISP i've ever dealt with, and the fact that they've won a court case against AT&T to run fiber through oakland and berkeley is just amazing. their teams are working in my neighborhood now to get this all installed. i can't wait for my $50/month gigabit internet, complete w/the best customer service ever!
- NickInSF 7y ago
  Completely agree. Sonic is a customer service provider that happens to be an ISP. I've had their gigabit fiber service in SF for the past two years. The few times I've had to call and inquire about a service issue, I was able to speak to someone within a minute of calling. And if you check their forums, you'll find their CEO responding to questions.
  - incomplete 7y ago
    omg omg omg! the sonic cherry picker truck was finishing up the fiber work right outside my house this morning... talked to the amazingly nice cablemen and i should have fiber in ~month!
__sy__ 7y ago
Just wanted to chime in about how happy with their residential service in SF. I have their 1Gbps package. With Comcast, this would most often translate to a real-life asymetric 250mbps download, 50mbps upload speed. With Sonic: I'm consistently getting SYMMETRIC 900mbps+! It's insane and comes in real-handy when you're pushing a few gigs of file from your home server to AWS... Edit: I have cat6 ethernet wired throughout my place.
- curt15 7y ago
  >With Comcast, this would most often translate to a real-life asymetric 250mbps download, 50mbps upload speed Don't forget the inevitable data cap!
- ribosometronome 7y ago
  Former Sonic customer here. I caved and moved to the South Bay after doing the commute for too long and Sonic is honestly what I miss most about the city.
  - scottlocklin 7y ago
    Same here. I can't imagine complaining about Sonic. If I had issues, I could call a freaking human in Mountain View (or whatever), and he'd fix it rather than asking me to cycle the power on my computer.
- justizin 7y ago
  additionally, because comcast and DSL providers are using existing wiring in what are often very old buildings that are difficult to rewire (at the building level moreso than the unit level), that stuff is often just going through mazes of wiring with tons of interference and really inconsistently performs. fiber is honestly just easier to pull through three stories of 100yo walls than coax, afaict, and it doesn't care if it runs next to power or other data as long as you don't break it. i wasn't able to get full gigabit when i lived in sf with sonic, but my latency and general reliability was WAY higher than even with comcast business.
- fletchowns 7y ago
  I would happily switch from Comcast but when I check availability for where I live in Livermore, they only offer 50Mbps. Currently paying ~180/mo for Comcast gigabit and TV (and phone that I don't use). I would fork over quite a bit for symmetrical gigabit, very jealous!
  - floren 7y ago
    I used Sonic in Livermore because despite the relatively low speeds, I didn't have to reboot the modem every week like Comcast!
jandrese 7y ago
I miss the days of competing ISPs. I remember having Speakeasy for my DSL back in the early 2000s and being impressed at the range of services they offered and relatively high speeds they offered for less than what Verizon wanted to charge for a DSL line. Usenet, a shell server, personal webhosting, a POTS phone bank you could use as a backup when you were on the road. But the limitations of DSL meant they couldn't compete with FiOS. And since FiOS didn't have to deal with grandfathered common carrier laws Verizon wasn't forced to share and they have not. Amazingly, even though the customer service headaches are incredible, you can get a reasonably fast line for not too much money (100Mbit for $35/month) on FiOS. Probably because we have some competition from cable modems. Of course you can't get IPv6 on there, because Verizon's most advanced network ever doesn't support it.
- gervase 7y ago
  FIOS wasn't actually why that market segment died; it was due to the FCC decision to re-classify DSL [0]. This was in response to a lawsuit resolved a few months earlier that did the same for cable internet connections. [1] By re-classifying both cable and DSL as Title 1, rather than Title 2, that meant that they were no longer common carriers, and could kick all the competing ISPs off their network. This is why it seemed that most of the third-party providers went away nearly overnight. [0]: https://www.cnet.com/news/fcc-changes-dsl-classification/ https://www.cnet.com/news/fcc-changes-dsl-classification/ [1]" https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/technology/cable-wins-internetaccess-ruling.html https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/technology/cable-wins-int...
  - nym 7y ago
    > The phone companies say that the ruling will free up more of their resources to improve their broadband services, although at least one FCC commissioner says he will be watching to see if that's really the case. > ISPs such as EarthLink, which already have a hard time competing on price, may still negotiate access contracts with the phone companies but are looking for alternative ways to deliver their services. EarthLink sold the next year to Windstream for $673 million in an all-stock transaction. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/11/dial-up-pioneer-earthlink-still-exists-and-its-merging-with-windstream/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/11/dial-... Three years later... Windstream unloads legacy EarthLink internet assets for $330M https://www.fiercetelecom.com/telecom/windstream-unloads-legacy-earthlink-internet-assets-for-330-million https://www.fiercetelecom.com/telecom/windstream-unloads-leg...
ezarowny 7y ago
I have Sonic's gigabit fiber service and I absolutely love it. I also appreciate that you can get support via SMS.
rezendi 7y ago
Very happy Sonic customer here. I just moved from San Francisco to the East Bay and the process was mostly painless, and when a little glitch did occur, instead of trying to force me to deal with the existence of their internal processes, policies, and silos, something I call Conway's Law For Customers, they just Took Care Of It For Me.
gruglife 7y ago
Please Sonic, come to Ingleside Terraces!!!
nominated1 7y ago
Visits site > Clicks Check Availability > Enters Address Info > Clicks Check Availability > Google Captcha > Selects Audio (because I've been caught in a loop too many times) > Clicks Play > Enters Text > Receives "Try Again Later..." > Closes Tab There has got to be a better way. I mean Sonic just lost a potential customer because I won't "Try Again Later". Ubuntu + Firefox FWIW
- justizin 7y ago
  so you are complaining that sonic uses google captcha, and google captcha did not work for you today? lol.
  - deftnerd 7y ago
    It's a valid critism. They decided to use Google Captcha and it often blocks 'advanced' users. ReCAPTCHA often has problems with Linux, non-chrome, VPN users, and users that use ad or javascript blockers. That's the kind of advanced user that appreciates and uses an internet provider like Sonic.net. It would be like a mobile phone service provider requiring people to pass a turing test if they call into the sales line from a mobile phone.
    - beatgammit 7y ago
      Why isn't email verification enough for these services? I don't think they really need to worry about automated services signing up for accounts, so I wonder why they put anything there at all...
      - jrockway 7y ago
        Availability tends to be a closely-guarded secret; they don't want a competitor typing in every address in the city and then getting an easy list of customers. ISPs are way too paranoid about this, though. Simple rate limiting is more than enough. If someone builds a botnet to check what buildings you're available in, maps the addresses to the person in charge of IT at every company in the building, signs the necessary access agreements, digs up the streets to install fiber, then calls your happy customers and asks them to switch, ... good luck to them. Meanwhile, an easy-to-use map or availability checker for potential customers probably has a high probability of getting you a sale.
butterfi 7y ago
I have Sonic at home, despite that it is basically AT&T dual bonded DSL and slower then my old Comcast connection. Its fast enough and I really like Sonic. Comcast, not so much.
- dfsegoat 7y ago
  Yeah. Have same here. Ordered via Sonic.net and was confused when AT&T guy showed up to do the whole install. That being said, still better than comcast, and hopefully they continue to roll out fiber for residential [1]. 1 - https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Internet-provider-Sonic-adding-faster-gigabit-13668653.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Internet-provid...
- scurvy 7y ago
  What's the reason to not like Comcast? For me it was Sonic at $90/mo for 3 maybe 4mbps (not a lie), or Comcast at $80 for 300mbps. It's a no-brainer there. I'm not doing anything illegal so I don't care about Comcast cracking down on torrents. The data caps are high enough that I can't hit them in my max-2 simultaneous Netflix streams. Comcast let me buy my own modem instead of using theirs. The only time I lost Comcast service was when all of San Francisco lost power. Comcast is pretty bad/predatory as a cable TV operator. But we're talking about Internet service, and they're pretty straightforward there. If you're in SF, can't get Sonic fiber, and really hate Comcast, then you should look into Monkeybrains.
  - butterfi 7y ago
    I pretty much agree with all your points. So given Comcast's track record, I've decided to not give them anything I don't have to. I have no reason to believe they will treat their internet customers any better then their cable subscribers. I like the way Sonic does business, so I'm going to support them, even if its slower. Its fast enough for my purposes (and we cord-cut, game, etc)
  - awongh 7y ago
    When I lived in SF I had monkeybrains, I was happy with them, and very happy not to give comcast my money.
olliej 7y ago
I'm really looking forward to their fibre rolling out in my neighborhood (for an entire year now). Last week I saw one of their trucks installing cable on the street right perpendicular to me. So close.
zalthor 7y ago
Maybe I'm being too picky? Or a maybe I'm just in the minority, bit I don't really like using Sonic. I mean, their internet works, and customer support is fine (but I've had as good a service from Comcast too). What I find annoying from Sonic is their billing process. I dislike that they foist a random router onto you and charge you $10 a month (and charge you if you want to return it). I also dislike that they force a landline on you and charge you another $10 on you. Who in 2019 needs a landline? What I find somewhat dishonest, is how the sell it. I get that most advertising is not supposed to reflect reality, but it's sort of strange that you get excited about ads that say and "1GBPS internet at $40 a month" and only a year later realize that you're paying $75 a month instead. And that's something that's public, who knows what else about their business is as deceptive. I suppose that's why Sonic has survived. I suppose that's the kind of business you need to run if you want to have a successful ISP.
- nudiustertian 7y ago
  > I dislike that they foist a random router onto you and charge you $10 a month (and charge you if you want to return it). I also dislike that they force a landline on you and charge you another $10 on you. Who in 2019 needs a landline? I've never used Sonic but this describes my Comcast experience completely. Frustrating that we cant get away from these trappings
  - proverbialbunny 7y ago
    I don't know where you live, so maybe your situation is that, but I've been on Comcast for years over multiple houses, and I've always owned my own modem and never have had any hidden fees. It could be tech support lied to you. It wouldn't be a first.
- mrigor 7y ago
  You don't have to rent their modem
  - Lammy 7y ago
    You can send it back, but (supposedly) if you do so they charge you a fee to send a tech out in the future. I say supposedly because it seems like a weed-out warning to reduce support tickets from people who made their own problems, but I haven’t had to find out since my Sonic fiber has been flawless for two years. There’s an ONT on the wall where the fiber comes through, providing one data jack and one phone jack. I just plug an ethernet cable between it and my FreeBSD router PC, request a DHCP lease on that interface, and go.
yellowapple 7y ago
My initial experience with Sonic was kinda abysmal (real annoying to have to take 4 hours off work only for the tech to never show up), but it's since proven to be pretty solid (at least for DSL), and even with the tech no-show it was pretty great to just be able to text them back and get what seemed to be a response from a real person almost immediately.
mooreds 7y ago
If you are in the Boulder area, Indra's Net is an isp that is still around. They've diversified, but last I checked still offered some dial up service to more remote parts of the area. https://indras.net/ https://indras.net/
gravitas 7y ago
Hopefully of interest to HN readers, Sonic has frequent flyer miles with the EFF as being one of the best privacy-oriented ISPs around, fighting gag orders for customer information, offering VPNs, etc. - this article briefly skims over that, easy to find more info in searches. ( https://www.eff.org/who-has-your-back-2017 https://www.eff.org/who-has-your-back-2017 ) Probably one of the first all-Linux ISPs to boot. (disclaimer: I've had a Sonic account for just a bit over 24 years, I'm biased)
rocky1138 7y ago
Do any ISPs still offer shell accounts?
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  Here's one that does ;-) https://www.sonic.com/shell-access https://www.sonic.com/shell-access
  - proverbialbunny 7y ago
    Does anyone have experience with the usenet access it says it provides? I can't find any information on google.
    - chipotle_coyote 7y ago
      When I last tried a few years ago, I could just point a news reader at news.sonic.net and it worked. I can't test it now because I'm no longer a Sonic customer. (I love many things about them, but where I live in Santa Clara, they could never offer any service faster than DSL, and I finally gave in and switched to Comcast.)
- Fnoord 7y ago
  Xs4all in The Netherlands does, but they are a daughter of KPN since 1997 and now in 2019 KPN wants to merge all their brands to KPN. So that ship might sail soon...
robbiet480 7y ago
I tried to get Sonic at 100 Grand Avenue in Oakland after they put fliers on homes and businesses all around saying "We are coming to Oakland with our own fiber and offering gigabit!" (they have been in Oakland for a long time with their AT&T DSL product). Turns out, they decided to not install to my building (254 unit high-rise), most likely due to a, what I believe to be, illegal exclusive line ownership agreement that my commercial landlords signed with AT&T. Thankfully, a recent entrant to the inner Bay Area market, Wave G (which has roots in Astound, a name those of you with connection to Walnut Creek might recognize, and RCN) is now providing me symmetric gigabit point to point internet for $80/month with no caps. Just very glad to finally be rid of Comcast. I will say though that I've previously gotten Sonic at business addresses, both DSL and Fiber, and they have been super great. Glad to see the small guy winning in such a competitive market as the Bay Area.
- mosdl 7y ago
  In the South Bay we have Sail Internet which also does point to point.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  illegal exclusive line ownership agreement that my commercial landlords signed with AT&T. Exclusive, yes. Illegal? Not really. Every apartment building I've lived in has had an agreement with one provider. They don't want to rip open the walls for every company that wants to put in a line. And these days with the way internet providers come and go, I don't blame them. If you rent, you don't own the building, so you have no say in the matter. If you own a condo, then you can at least influence the board. If you want more control over your home's internet service, buy a house. The only way around it is to go wireless. Back when WiMax was a thing, the building I lived in had an exclusive deal with AT&T, which could only supply 768k DSL. I got around that by going with ClearWire's WiMax.
  - robbiet480 7y ago
    Here's the facts I am aware of, with a massive caveat that this was a few years ago and my memory is pretty fuzzy on it: - When the building was under construction, Comcast paid some amount of money for coax to be installed. Maybe it was extra coax, maybe it was a headend for the building, I don't know specifics, other than Comcast paid the building owners - In exchange, between 2008 and 2013, Comcast had a exclusive line agreement, only allowing AT&T access - In 2014, the Comcast contract expired and AT&T created a exclusive lines agreement with building management, only allowing Comcast to exist - Based on this [0] statement from the FCC, these exclusivity agreements are illegal in apartments - At the time that I had looked into this, around 2012, I was attempting to get WebPass (pre-Google acquisition) to come into the building. Turns out that my building was a top sales prospect for them, so I worked with their chief sales officer and chief legal officer to craft letters to my management about the exclusive agreement, although never followed through when WebPass had pushback from the company at other properties than my own. - Wave G was able to install its own hardware (routers on every floor) and ethernet from the antenna on the 23rd floor all the way down to ground level (in preexisting conduit that was installed at construction time) in April 2019. Wave G was only able to do this after executing a side agreement with my building management to gain access. They were willing to do whatever it took to get into the building because we were blocking (physically with height) line of sight to their tower in downtown Oakland and needed to use our roof as a hop. I assume they paid a good chunk of cash to get in. Just a note, the building owner is Essex Property Trust, a publicly traded REIT with quite a few buildings on the west coast. One other thing, this exclusivity thing is a real issue in Oakland specifically which is why EFF created OICC [1] which I provided my feedback to. [0]: https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-280908A1.pdf https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-280908A1.pdf [1]: https://oaklandinternetchoice.com https://oaklandinternetchoice.com
vinniejames 7y ago
That's because Sonic is AT&T.... "Sonic will offer the AT&T service under its own brand and with its own customer service." https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/3900026-181/sonic-partners-with-att-works https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/3900026-181/sonic-partner...
- Drdrdrq 7y ago
  There's a world of difference between being and partnering with AT&T.
JustSomeNobody 7y ago
I had Comcast out recently due to intermittent connection issues. The very first thing he said when he saw my SB6141 was that it was not on the approved list and that it was likely the issue. Of course, he tested the line and found the real issue (their line and connector outside). After he left, I looked it up and my modem is in fact still on their approved list for the 60Mbps that I pay for. I seriously dislike the state we are in with all the consolidation of communication companies. It's just mind blowing that this has been allowed to happen.
rladd 7y ago
I used to be a big support of Sonic for years, but have changed my mind as of late. They skipped my block for fiber, and I thought there could be some issue (like the fact that a Muni electric line runs down it) that might make it impossible for them to install it. So I asked their tech support if it was going to someday come, or never come. Sonic would not give me any information. They wouldn't confirm or deny that they'd ever be able to install fiber. They said it would probably happen eventually, but refused to provide even a ballpark figure like "next month, next year, 2 years, 5 years or 10 years". I finally got a response saying that there were overloaded utility poles on my block and the next block, and that was what was preventing them from stringing fiber. They even sent a map showing which poles were at fault. So I went to the PUC and worked with them to get the poles replaced, all while sticking with Sonic's slow and expensive ADSL. Once the poles were replaced, I went back to Sonic and they still refused to say if or when they'd be able to install fiber. Finally (several years have gone by now) someone from the responsible department said that there would never be fiber on my block because of the Muni electric line. What? That's what I asked in the 1st place!?! After that someone else replied and said that they could actually do it on Muni electric blocks now, but they again refused to give me any semblance of a timeframe. Finally, someone else at Sonic admitted that it could be a very long time, perhaps more than 7 years, because "it's as time consuming to do permitting for a block as it is for a neighborhood" and my block wasn't a priority. That's all fine, but if so why didn't they say so in the first place rather than giving me a run-around for 3 or 4 years? Wait, I think I know the answer: if they admit that fiber isn't coming any time soon (if at all) people might go to a competitor for faster service! Pretty cynical, and not what I'd hope for in an ISP committed to transparency. But there you have it: as far as I'm concerned, Sonic just isn't as cool as they seemed. TL/DR: If Sonic skips your block, they ain't coming back any time soon, if at all, even if the issue that made them skip is corrected.
- proverbialbunny 7y ago
  Sonic, though, has encountered the same problems. For example, some San Francisco utility poles are too crowded to attach Sonic fiber-optic cables onto them. Yet, neither PG&E nor AT&T have a timetable when those poles will be replaced, Jasper said, leaving areas in certain neighborhoods where Sonic cannot reach potential customers. There have been advances in placing lines underground, specifically through micro-trenching where cables are installed in a small trench that is typically less than 12 inches deep by 1 inch wide. That would make the cost much more reasonable than tearing up and repaving city streets in a large construction project. But that type of construction isn’t allowed yet in San Francisco. Supervisor Mark Farrell has sponsored legislation to allow such work, noting that about 100,000 of the city’s 865,000 residents lack internet access. https://www.pressdemocrat.com/business/7046772-181/sonic-battles-att-comcast-to?sba=AAS https://www.pressdemocrat.com/business/7046772-181/sonic-bat...
Rothnargoth 7y ago
Sonic customer here, but will try to be neutral. The value proposition was probably the best selling point, and they rarely raise prices. There is a certain satisfaction when the odd piece of Comcast advertisement comes by mail offering 2-3x the price for 1/8 the bandwidth from Sonic. Fiber customers can return the residential gateway and use their own router, which saves you $10/month. You have to agree you understand the implications of loosing remote troubleshooting, but I'm sure HN users are savvy in this department. Prior to getting symmetrical fiber, I didn't have a clue what all that bandwidth could be used for, but again the value proposition was icing on the cake. Years later I still haven't a clue what all of this bandwidth was for. Imagine a kid on a fieldtrip to a famous chocolate factory imagining swimming in a chocolate fountain. The fountain is real, but you dip maybe one strawberry when you get there. The only customer support call was easily enough to self fix. I just wanted to know if I had permission to touch the equipment in the outside service panel. Hopefully, more cities push for municipal broadband. That would be if Comcast would stop suing to stop it.
- inferiorhuman 7y ago
  Fiber customers can return the residential gateway and use their own router, which saves you $10/month. You can return the gigantic Pace multifunction dongle but it'll cost you $10/mo to do so.
DaniloDias 7y ago
There is a good interview with Dane Jasper at about 1:11:15, where he talks about this history of Sonic.net. https://youtu.be/hoxhj4zq0DE https://youtu.be/hoxhj4zq0DE
bane 7y ago
I worked at an ISP back in the late 90s. We were in the same building as our backbone provider and they simply drilled a hole in the floor and dropped an Ethernet cable down it for us to get our connection. We replaced our custom built dialup racks with something fancier and supported ISDN for the handful of customers who wanted it. The coming of DSL and cable internet was the writing on the wall to get out. The owners sold it to a larger ISP during a frothy period of mergers and acquisitions while the marketplace tidied itself up. There used to be dozens of ISPs you could choose from in a big market. Sigh.
scarejunba 7y ago
Sonic Fibre is great. I have the gigabit service and I've never worried about the cost because I'd pay $100 for it and it's less than that. Comcast was $89 for 200 megabit. The only problem is that it disconnected during two CS:GO games leaving my teammates annoyed (mildly) with me. Also I think it was them who told me about the .org TLD being uncapped and all that and I appreciate that.
rawoke083600 7y ago
Its really really to hard differentiate yourself as an ISP as most people look to you as utility and ultimately just look at your price. There are in my experience (see below) two ways to measure/review an ISP: 1) Their customer service. 2) Their actual internet product (be it fibre, lte or copper) Most people get upset,mad and angry when 1(customer service) goes wrong and thus grade the ISP solely on that. They then move to a "better" (read better call centre agent) and usually for a less superior product. Face-it the "Unicorn-ISP" doesn't exist with excellent customer service and excellent connectivity product. Fun side-story/plug. I run www.FibreTiger.co.za. South Africa's largest "Internet Comparison Service". In South Africa we have over 15 fibre networks (only 3 or 4 really matters) and a little over a 100 registered ISP (only about 5-7 really matters and we only list about 20. Keep in mind only about 10%-15% of our population have fibre-coverage. Our biggest problem is most people still don't know how fibre works in our country. I.e you can only get a package from an ISP with a network you have coverage for. I've once be called "unethical" because I told a lady she can ONLY get fibre from this very specific fibre network in her area. (There was no other fibre coverage for her). Yet no matter how I explained she thought I was restricting her choices. Oh well :)
simonebrunozzi 7y ago
I use Monkeybrains in SF. Decent service.
scelerat 7y ago
Sonic Fiber is available in my neighborhood two blocks away in every direction. Just not my block. :-( Still switched because I was so sick of Comcast.

sonic customer here (past through sonic, currently through LMI.net as a reseller). they're the best ISP i've ever dealt with, and the fact that they've won a court case against AT&T to run fiber through oakland and berkeley is just amazing. their teams are working in my neighborhood now to get this all installed. i can't wait for my $50/month gigabit internet, complete w/the best customer service ever!

NickInSF 7y ago
Completely agree. Sonic is a customer service provider that happens to be an ISP. I've had their gigabit fiber service in SF for the past two years. The few times I've had to call and inquire about a service issue, I was able to speak to someone within a minute of calling. And if you check their forums, you'll find their CEO responding to questions.
- incomplete 7y ago
  omg omg omg! the sonic cherry picker truck was finishing up the fiber work right outside my house this morning... talked to the amazingly nice cablemen and i should have fiber in ~month!

__sy__ 7y ago

Just wanted to chime in about how happy with their residential service in SF. I have their 1Gbps package. With Comcast, this would most often translate to a real-life asymetric 250mbps download, 50mbps upload speed. With Sonic: I'm consistently getting SYMMETRIC 900mbps+! It's insane and comes in real-handy when you're pushing a few gigs of file from your home server to AWS... Edit: I have cat6 ethernet wired throughout my place.

curt15 7y ago
>With Comcast, this would most often translate to a real-life asymetric 250mbps download, 50mbps upload speed Don't forget the inevitable data cap!
ribosometronome 7y ago
Former Sonic customer here. I caved and moved to the South Bay after doing the commute for too long and Sonic is honestly what I miss most about the city.
- scottlocklin 7y ago
  Same here. I can't imagine complaining about Sonic. If I had issues, I could call a freaking human in Mountain View (or whatever), and he'd fix it rather than asking me to cycle the power on my computer.
justizin 7y ago
additionally, because comcast and DSL providers are using existing wiring in what are often very old buildings that are difficult to rewire (at the building level moreso than the unit level), that stuff is often just going through mazes of wiring with tons of interference and really inconsistently performs. fiber is honestly just easier to pull through three stories of 100yo walls than coax, afaict, and it doesn't care if it runs next to power or other data as long as you don't break it. i wasn't able to get full gigabit when i lived in sf with sonic, but my latency and general reliability was WAY higher than even with comcast business.
fletchowns 7y ago
I would happily switch from Comcast but when I check availability for where I live in Livermore, they only offer 50Mbps. Currently paying ~180/mo for Comcast gigabit and TV (and phone that I don't use). I would fork over quite a bit for symmetrical gigabit, very jealous!
- floren 7y ago
  I used Sonic in Livermore because despite the relatively low speeds, I didn't have to reboot the modem every week like Comcast!

jandrese 7y ago

I miss the days of competing ISPs. I remember having Speakeasy for my DSL back in the early 2000s and being impressed at the range of services they offered and relatively high speeds they offered for less than what Verizon wanted to charge for a DSL line. Usenet, a shell server, personal webhosting, a POTS phone bank you could use as a backup when you were on the road. But the limitations of DSL meant they couldn't compete with FiOS. And since FiOS didn't have to deal with grandfathered common carrier laws Verizon wasn't forced to share and they have not. Amazingly, even though the customer service headaches are incredible, you can get a reasonably fast line for not too much money (100Mbit for $35/month) on FiOS. Probably because we have some competition from cable modems. Of course you can't get IPv6 on there, because Verizon's most advanced network ever doesn't support it.

gervase 7y ago
FIOS wasn't actually why that market segment died; it was due to the FCC decision to re-classify DSL [0]. This was in response to a lawsuit resolved a few months earlier that did the same for cable internet connections. [1] By re-classifying both cable and DSL as Title 1, rather than Title 2, that meant that they were no longer common carriers, and could kick all the competing ISPs off their network. This is why it seemed that most of the third-party providers went away nearly overnight. [0]: https://www.cnet.com/news/fcc-changes-dsl-classification/ https://www.cnet.com/news/fcc-changes-dsl-classification/ [1]" https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/technology/cable-wins-internetaccess-ruling.html https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/technology/cable-wins-int...
- nym 7y ago
  > The phone companies say that the ruling will free up more of their resources to improve their broadband services, although at least one FCC commissioner says he will be watching to see if that's really the case. > ISPs such as EarthLink, which already have a hard time competing on price, may still negotiate access contracts with the phone companies but are looking for alternative ways to deliver their services. EarthLink sold the next year to Windstream for $673 million in an all-stock transaction. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/11/dial-up-pioneer-earthlink-still-exists-and-its-merging-with-windstream/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/11/dial-... Three years later... Windstream unloads legacy EarthLink internet assets for $330M https://www.fiercetelecom.com/telecom/windstream-unloads-legacy-earthlink-internet-assets-for-330-million https://www.fiercetelecom.com/telecom/windstream-unloads-leg...

ezarowny 7y ago

I have Sonic's gigabit fiber service and I absolutely love it. I also appreciate that you can get support via SMS.

rezendi 7y ago

Very happy Sonic customer here. I just moved from San Francisco to the East Bay and the process was mostly painless, and when a little glitch did occur, instead of trying to force me to deal with the existence of their internal processes, policies, and silos, something I call Conway's Law For Customers, they just Took Care Of It For Me.

gruglife 7y ago

Please Sonic, come to Ingleside Terraces!!!

nominated1 7y ago

Visits site > Clicks Check Availability > Enters Address Info > Clicks Check Availability > Google Captcha > Selects Audio (because I've been caught in a loop too many times) > Clicks Play > Enters Text > Receives "Try Again Later..." > Closes Tab There has got to be a better way. I mean Sonic just lost a potential customer because I won't "Try Again Later". Ubuntu + Firefox FWIW

justizin 7y ago
so you are complaining that sonic uses google captcha, and google captcha did not work for you today? lol.
- deftnerd 7y ago
  It's a valid critism. They decided to use Google Captcha and it often blocks 'advanced' users. ReCAPTCHA often has problems with Linux, non-chrome, VPN users, and users that use ad or javascript blockers. That's the kind of advanced user that appreciates and uses an internet provider like Sonic.net. It would be like a mobile phone service provider requiring people to pass a turing test if they call into the sales line from a mobile phone.
  - beatgammit 7y ago
    Why isn't email verification enough for these services? I don't think they really need to worry about automated services signing up for accounts, so I wonder why they put anything there at all...
    - jrockway 7y ago
      Availability tends to be a closely-guarded secret; they don't want a competitor typing in every address in the city and then getting an easy list of customers. ISPs are way too paranoid about this, though. Simple rate limiting is more than enough. If someone builds a botnet to check what buildings you're available in, maps the addresses to the person in charge of IT at every company in the building, signs the necessary access agreements, digs up the streets to install fiber, then calls your happy customers and asks them to switch, ... good luck to them. Meanwhile, an easy-to-use map or availability checker for potential customers probably has a high probability of getting you a sale.

butterfi 7y ago

I have Sonic at home, despite that it is basically AT&T dual bonded DSL and slower then my old Comcast connection. Its fast enough and I really like Sonic. Comcast, not so much.

dfsegoat 7y ago
Yeah. Have same here. Ordered via Sonic.net and was confused when AT&T guy showed up to do the whole install. That being said, still better than comcast, and hopefully they continue to roll out fiber for residential [1]. 1 - https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Internet-provider-Sonic-adding-faster-gigabit-13668653.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Internet-provid...
scurvy 7y ago
What's the reason to not like Comcast? For me it was Sonic at $90/mo for 3 maybe 4mbps (not a lie), or Comcast at $80 for 300mbps. It's a no-brainer there. I'm not doing anything illegal so I don't care about Comcast cracking down on torrents. The data caps are high enough that I can't hit them in my max-2 simultaneous Netflix streams. Comcast let me buy my own modem instead of using theirs. The only time I lost Comcast service was when all of San Francisco lost power. Comcast is pretty bad/predatory as a cable TV operator. But we're talking about Internet service, and they're pretty straightforward there. If you're in SF, can't get Sonic fiber, and really hate Comcast, then you should look into Monkeybrains.
- butterfi 7y ago
  I pretty much agree with all your points. So given Comcast's track record, I've decided to not give them anything I don't have to. I have no reason to believe they will treat their internet customers any better then their cable subscribers. I like the way Sonic does business, so I'm going to support them, even if its slower. Its fast enough for my purposes (and we cord-cut, game, etc)
- awongh 7y ago
  When I lived in SF I had monkeybrains, I was happy with them, and very happy not to give comcast my money.

olliej 7y ago

I'm really looking forward to their fibre rolling out in my neighborhood (for an entire year now). Last week I saw one of their trucks installing cable on the street right perpendicular to me. So close.

zalthor 7y ago

Maybe I'm being too picky? Or a maybe I'm just in the minority, bit I don't really like using Sonic. I mean, their internet works, and customer support is fine (but I've had as good a service from Comcast too). What I find annoying from Sonic is their billing process. I dislike that they foist a random router onto you and charge you $10 a month (and charge you if you want to return it). I also dislike that they force a landline on you and charge you another $10 on you. Who in 2019 needs a landline? What I find somewhat dishonest, is how the sell it. I get that most advertising is not supposed to reflect reality, but it's sort of strange that you get excited about ads that say and "1GBPS internet at $40 a month" and only a year later realize that you're paying $75 a month instead. And that's something that's public, who knows what else about their business is as deceptive. I suppose that's why Sonic has survived. I suppose that's the kind of business you need to run if you want to have a successful ISP.

nudiustertian 7y ago
> I dislike that they foist a random router onto you and charge you $10 a month (and charge you if you want to return it). I also dislike that they force a landline on you and charge you another $10 on you. Who in 2019 needs a landline? I've never used Sonic but this describes my Comcast experience completely. Frustrating that we cant get away from these trappings
- proverbialbunny 7y ago
  I don't know where you live, so maybe your situation is that, but I've been on Comcast for years over multiple houses, and I've always owned my own modem and never have had any hidden fees. It could be tech support lied to you. It wouldn't be a first.
mrigor 7y ago
You don't have to rent their modem
- Lammy 7y ago
  You can send it back, but (supposedly) if you do so they charge you a fee to send a tech out in the future. I say supposedly because it seems like a weed-out warning to reduce support tickets from people who made their own problems, but I haven’t had to find out since my Sonic fiber has been flawless for two years. There’s an ONT on the wall where the fiber comes through, providing one data jack and one phone jack. I just plug an ethernet cable between it and my FreeBSD router PC, request a DHCP lease on that interface, and go.

yellowapple 7y ago

My initial experience with Sonic was kinda abysmal (real annoying to have to take 4 hours off work only for the tech to never show up), but it's since proven to be pretty solid (at least for DSL), and even with the tech no-show it was pretty great to just be able to text them back and get what seemed to be a response from a real person almost immediately.

mooreds 7y ago

If you are in the Boulder area, Indra's Net is an isp that is still around. They've diversified, but last I checked still offered some dial up service to more remote parts of the area. https://indras.net/ https://indras.net/

gravitas 7y ago

Hopefully of interest to HN readers, Sonic has frequent flyer miles with the EFF as being one of the best privacy-oriented ISPs around, fighting gag orders for customer information, offering VPNs, etc. - this article briefly skims over that, easy to find more info in searches. ( https://www.eff.org/who-has-your-back-2017 https://www.eff.org/who-has-your-back-2017 ) Probably one of the first all-Linux ISPs to boot. (disclaimer: I've had a Sonic account for just a bit over 24 years, I'm biased)

rocky1138 7y ago

Do any ISPs still offer shell accounts?

dredmorbius 7y ago
Here's one that does ;-) https://www.sonic.com/shell-access https://www.sonic.com/shell-access
- proverbialbunny 7y ago
  Does anyone have experience with the usenet access it says it provides? I can't find any information on google.
  - chipotle_coyote 7y ago
    When I last tried a few years ago, I could just point a news reader at news.sonic.net and it worked. I can't test it now because I'm no longer a Sonic customer. (I love many things about them, but where I live in Santa Clara, they could never offer any service faster than DSL, and I finally gave in and switched to Comcast.)
Fnoord 7y ago
Xs4all in The Netherlands does, but they are a daughter of KPN since 1997 and now in 2019 KPN wants to merge all their brands to KPN. So that ship might sail soon...

robbiet480 7y ago

I tried to get Sonic at 100 Grand Avenue in Oakland after they put fliers on homes and businesses all around saying "We are coming to Oakland with our own fiber and offering gigabit!" (they have been in Oakland for a long time with their AT&T DSL product). Turns out, they decided to not install to my building (254 unit high-rise), most likely due to a, what I believe to be, illegal exclusive line ownership agreement that my commercial landlords signed with AT&T. Thankfully, a recent entrant to the inner Bay Area market, Wave G (which has roots in Astound, a name those of you with connection to Walnut Creek might recognize, and RCN) is now providing me symmetric gigabit point to point internet for $80/month with no caps. Just very glad to finally be rid of Comcast. I will say though that I've previously gotten Sonic at business addresses, both DSL and Fiber, and they have been super great. Glad to see the small guy winning in such a competitive market as the Bay Area.

mosdl 7y ago
In the South Bay we have Sail Internet which also does point to point.
reaperducer 7y ago
illegal exclusive line ownership agreement that my commercial landlords signed with AT&T. Exclusive, yes. Illegal? Not really. Every apartment building I've lived in has had an agreement with one provider. They don't want to rip open the walls for every company that wants to put in a line. And these days with the way internet providers come and go, I don't blame them. If you rent, you don't own the building, so you have no say in the matter. If you own a condo, then you can at least influence the board. If you want more control over your home's internet service, buy a house. The only way around it is to go wireless. Back when WiMax was a thing, the building I lived in had an exclusive deal with AT&T, which could only supply 768k DSL. I got around that by going with ClearWire's WiMax.
- robbiet480 7y ago
  Here's the facts I am aware of, with a massive caveat that this was a few years ago and my memory is pretty fuzzy on it: - When the building was under construction, Comcast paid some amount of money for coax to be installed. Maybe it was extra coax, maybe it was a headend for the building, I don't know specifics, other than Comcast paid the building owners - In exchange, between 2008 and 2013, Comcast had a exclusive line agreement, only allowing AT&T access - In 2014, the Comcast contract expired and AT&T created a exclusive lines agreement with building management, only allowing Comcast to exist - Based on this [0] statement from the FCC, these exclusivity agreements are illegal in apartments - At the time that I had looked into this, around 2012, I was attempting to get WebPass (pre-Google acquisition) to come into the building. Turns out that my building was a top sales prospect for them, so I worked with their chief sales officer and chief legal officer to craft letters to my management about the exclusive agreement, although never followed through when WebPass had pushback from the company at other properties than my own. - Wave G was able to install its own hardware (routers on every floor) and ethernet from the antenna on the 23rd floor all the way down to ground level (in preexisting conduit that was installed at construction time) in April 2019. Wave G was only able to do this after executing a side agreement with my building management to gain access. They were willing to do whatever it took to get into the building because we were blocking (physically with height) line of sight to their tower in downtown Oakland and needed to use our roof as a hop. I assume they paid a good chunk of cash to get in. Just a note, the building owner is Essex Property Trust, a publicly traded REIT with quite a few buildings on the west coast. One other thing, this exclusivity thing is a real issue in Oakland specifically which is why EFF created OICC [1] which I provided my feedback to. [0]: https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-280908A1.pdf https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-280908A1.pdf [1]: https://oaklandinternetchoice.com https://oaklandinternetchoice.com

vinniejames 7y ago

That's because Sonic is AT&T.... "Sonic will offer the AT&T service under its own brand and with its own customer service." https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/3900026-181/sonic-partners-with-att-works https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/3900026-181/sonic-partner...

Drdrdrq 7y ago
There's a world of difference between being and partnering with AT&T.

JustSomeNobody 7y ago

I had Comcast out recently due to intermittent connection issues. The very first thing he said when he saw my SB6141 was that it was not on the approved list and that it was likely the issue. Of course, he tested the line and found the real issue (their line and connector outside). After he left, I looked it up and my modem is in fact still on their approved list for the 60Mbps that I pay for. I seriously dislike the state we are in with all the consolidation of communication companies. It's just mind blowing that this has been allowed to happen.

rladd 7y ago

I used to be a big support of Sonic for years, but have changed my mind as of late. They skipped my block for fiber, and I thought there could be some issue (like the fact that a Muni electric line runs down it) that might make it impossible for them to install it. So I asked their tech support if it was going to someday come, or never come. Sonic would not give me any information. They wouldn't confirm or deny that they'd ever be able to install fiber. They said it would probably happen eventually, but refused to provide even a ballpark figure like "next month, next year, 2 years, 5 years or 10 years". I finally got a response saying that there were overloaded utility poles on my block and the next block, and that was what was preventing them from stringing fiber. They even sent a map showing which poles were at fault. So I went to the PUC and worked with them to get the poles replaced, all while sticking with Sonic's slow and expensive ADSL. Once the poles were replaced, I went back to Sonic and they still refused to say if or when they'd be able to install fiber. Finally (several years have gone by now) someone from the responsible department said that there would never be fiber on my block because of the Muni electric line. What? That's what I asked in the 1st place!?! After that someone else replied and said that they could actually do it on Muni electric blocks now, but they again refused to give me any semblance of a timeframe. Finally, someone else at Sonic admitted that it could be a very long time, perhaps more than 7 years, because "it's as time consuming to do permitting for a block as it is for a neighborhood" and my block wasn't a priority. That's all fine, but if so why didn't they say so in the first place rather than giving me a run-around for 3 or 4 years? Wait, I think I know the answer: if they admit that fiber isn't coming any time soon (if at all) people might go to a competitor for faster service! Pretty cynical, and not what I'd hope for in an ISP committed to transparency. But there you have it: as far as I'm concerned, Sonic just isn't as cool as they seemed. TL/DR: If Sonic skips your block, they ain't coming back any time soon, if at all, even if the issue that made them skip is corrected.

proverbialbunny 7y ago
Sonic, though, has encountered the same problems. For example, some San Francisco utility poles are too crowded to attach Sonic fiber-optic cables onto them. Yet, neither PG&E nor AT&T have a timetable when those poles will be replaced, Jasper said, leaving areas in certain neighborhoods where Sonic cannot reach potential customers. There have been advances in placing lines underground, specifically through micro-trenching where cables are installed in a small trench that is typically less than 12 inches deep by 1 inch wide. That would make the cost much more reasonable than tearing up and repaving city streets in a large construction project. But that type of construction isn’t allowed yet in San Francisco. Supervisor Mark Farrell has sponsored legislation to allow such work, noting that about 100,000 of the city’s 865,000 residents lack internet access. https://www.pressdemocrat.com/business/7046772-181/sonic-battles-att-comcast-to?sba=AAS https://www.pressdemocrat.com/business/7046772-181/sonic-bat...

Rothnargoth 7y ago

Sonic customer here, but will try to be neutral. The value proposition was probably the best selling point, and they rarely raise prices. There is a certain satisfaction when the odd piece of Comcast advertisement comes by mail offering 2-3x the price for 1/8 the bandwidth from Sonic. Fiber customers can return the residential gateway and use their own router, which saves you $10/month. You have to agree you understand the implications of loosing remote troubleshooting, but I'm sure HN users are savvy in this department. Prior to getting symmetrical fiber, I didn't have a clue what all that bandwidth could be used for, but again the value proposition was icing on the cake. Years later I still haven't a clue what all of this bandwidth was for. Imagine a kid on a fieldtrip to a famous chocolate factory imagining swimming in a chocolate fountain. The fountain is real, but you dip maybe one strawberry when you get there. The only customer support call was easily enough to self fix. I just wanted to know if I had permission to touch the equipment in the outside service panel. Hopefully, more cities push for municipal broadband. That would be if Comcast would stop suing to stop it.

inferiorhuman 7y ago
Fiber customers can return the residential gateway and use their own router, which saves you $10/month. You can return the gigantic Pace multifunction dongle but it'll cost you $10/mo to do so.

DaniloDias 7y ago

There is a good interview with Dane Jasper at about 1:11:15, where he talks about this history of Sonic.net. https://youtu.be/hoxhj4zq0DE https://youtu.be/hoxhj4zq0DE

bane 7y ago

I worked at an ISP back in the late 90s. We were in the same building as our backbone provider and they simply drilled a hole in the floor and dropped an Ethernet cable down it for us to get our connection. We replaced our custom built dialup racks with something fancier and supported ISDN for the handful of customers who wanted it. The coming of DSL and cable internet was the writing on the wall to get out. The owners sold it to a larger ISP during a frothy period of mergers and acquisitions while the marketplace tidied itself up. There used to be dozens of ISPs you could choose from in a big market. Sigh.

scarejunba 7y ago

Sonic Fibre is great. I have the gigabit service and I've never worried about the cost because I'd pay $100 for it and it's less than that. Comcast was $89 for 200 megabit. The only problem is that it disconnected during two CS:GO games leaving my teammates annoyed (mildly) with me. Also I think it was them who told me about the .org TLD being uncapped and all that and I appreciate that.

rawoke083600 7y ago

Its really really to hard differentiate yourself as an ISP as most people look to you as utility and ultimately just look at your price. There are in my experience (see below) two ways to measure/review an ISP: 1) Their customer service. 2) Their actual internet product (be it fibre, lte or copper) Most people get upset,mad and angry when 1(customer service) goes wrong and thus grade the ISP solely on that. They then move to a "better" (read better call centre agent) and usually for a less superior product. Face-it the "Unicorn-ISP" doesn't exist with excellent customer service and excellent connectivity product. Fun side-story/plug. I run www.FibreTiger.co.za. South Africa's largest "Internet Comparison Service". In South Africa we have over 15 fibre networks (only 3 or 4 really matters) and a little over a 100 registered ISP (only about 5-7 really matters and we only list about 20. Keep in mind only about 10%-15% of our population have fibre-coverage. Our biggest problem is most people still don't know how fibre works in our country. I.e you can only get a package from an ISP with a network you have coverage for. I've once be called "unethical" because I told a lady she can ONLY get fibre from this very specific fibre network in her area. (There was no other fibre coverage for her). Yet no matter how I explained she thought I was restricting her choices. Oh well :)

simonebrunozzi 7y ago

I use Monkeybrains in SF. Decent service.

scelerat 7y ago

Sonic Fiber is available in my neighborhood two blocks away in every direction. Just not my block. :-( Still switched because I was so sick of Comcast.