3 ms·

What is the right solution: - make all the meetings remote for anyone? - make it a job requirement to be physically present? (like going to the office for reg

What is the right solution: - make all the meetings remote for anyone? - make it a job requirement to be physically present? (like going to the office for regular employees) - make special amendments for some people? Are there other options? Not sure how to look at this. I work from home part of the week because I am not interacting with almost anyone in the closest branch of my company, but I assume that going to the office is an obligation in certain cases and not being able to do it would make me unfit for that job. In this case it is not a job, but close enough for me: it is paid by taxpayers money.

santoshalper 7y ago
The right and obvious solution is to make special accommodations for people with special needs.
- AdrianB1 7y ago
  That is not right and that is not obvious. First, because "right" means it is right for all, that would imply the same rights and obligations for everyone. Because it is not right, it is not obvious. The only right way is to give equal treatment to everyone.
  - lazyasciiart 7y ago
    Obvious failure modes of "equal treatment to everyone" include six year olds joining the army.
    - modsiw 7y ago
      Oh oh oh. Can I play? Everyone is entitled to enter a restroom or no one is. I can get behind that. No more multi-toilet rooms with stall gaps.
    - hestipod 7y ago
      While I am strongly opposed to child labor and military conscription, a six year old can do a LOT of damage. I'd not want to face a squad of them on my best day.
  - mffnbs 7y ago
    What are you gaining from removing disabled people from "everyone"? You're against protections for these people because it's not fair to you? Ever consider that your way is not fair to them and potentially any other arbitrarily defined group of people?
    - AdrianB1 7y ago
      I gain a backbone. People with disabilities are a noble cause, but not an argument for inequality of rights. Consider that being equal is not discriminatory against any "arbitrary defined group of people", exactly opposite to your arbitrary rights.
      - whatisthiseven 7y ago
        Why can't we reverse your argument and say that "equality of rights is a noble cause"? Sure, we would of course prefer that, but barring that, I would absolutely prefer well-reasoned compromises for disabilities than nihilistic idealism.
      - mffnbs 7y ago
        Being equal can easily discriminate against anyone because your definition of equality does not match everyone else's. So, in your case, being equal means that handicapped people aren't treated equally. What if you set your arbitrary equality definition to only apply to white people? Now you're being equal by your personal standards again but you just regressed to the 1800s. Your version of equality is worthless, your backbone is just an excuse to make yourself feel better.
  - hestipod 7y ago
    You have the same right to accommodation when/if you are ever disabled as anyone else. If you aren't disabled and don't need the accommodation to function normally or without medical complications then you aren't being deprived of anything.
  - modsiw 7y ago
    Everyone enjoys the right that if you are unable to fulfill your job due to a disability, and a reasonable accommodation could be provided which would allow you to fulfill your job, you’re entitled to the accommodation.
    - AdrianB1 7y ago
      "entitled" is starting an alarm to me. I know and lived some history.
  - ensignro2340 7y ago
    Omg dude read about the ADA. You seem to have a deep misunderstand of things in the U.S.
    - AdrianB1 7y ago
      I am not from or in US, I am from and in Europe. We see "equal" as it in the dictionary, not bent backwards.
      - a_t48 7y ago
        https://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=1137 https://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=1137 The current EU govt. appears to disagree with you. Care to give an example?
      - ensignro2340 7y ago
        Wisconsin is in the US so US laws and regulations are what apply. Moreover it seems Europe also has similar legislation/protections for people with disabilities. This is equality. No bending necessary.
cortesoft 7y ago
> make special amendments for some people? This one. You make reasonable accommodations for people who can't follow the normal rules. This is how the ADA is worded - employers have to make reasonable accommodations as long as it doesn't prevent the person from doing their job.
- AdrianB1 7y ago
  How do you define reasonable? How do you justify making accommodations just for some people? Why not for all? Rights should be equal, not based on any discriminatory criteria.
  - cortesoft 7y ago
    So are you against handicap parking? You define reasonable by using reason. You examine the situation and try to see if you can make an accommodation for the person that lets them do their job while not sacrificing performance. If you can, you do it. You justify making these accommodations because you realize that there are some people who have conditions that make following the same routines that most people do impossible. We also realize that if you let everyone have those accommodations, it will not be sustainable, so you grant special rights to certain people based on this. The handicap parking is a perfect example. Or pre-boarding flights for people in wheelchairs. Obviously you can't give everyone handicap parking, because that is the same as giving no one handicap parking. Some people can't travel as far, so we let them get the spots up front. Same with pre-boarding. If everyone pre-boarded, it would just be boarding. But we also know that some groups need more time and space to board, like people in wheelchairs. So we let them board early. I never understand this attitude that we aren't allowed to accommodate people who have hardships because it is unfair on people without those hardships. Like, what? The unfair part is that they HAVE the handicap in the first place, we are just trying to make it a little more fair. Life isn't fair, so we make laws that are a little unfair in the opposite direction to try to even it out.
    - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
      You're comparing two different things though. Not everyone can have the closest parking space, but couldn't everyone attend the meeting remotely? If you add the capability to do it then I can give you a thousand reasons why someone should need it. They could be photosensitive and need to avoid sunlight, or agoraphobic, or have children they can't leave home alone, or follow a religion that requires them not to look upon an uncovered woman who is not their wife. They could be poor and unable to afford the travel, or live far away from the meeting place. By the time I'm done listing reasons, there won't be anybody left without one. The same is true for parking spaces, but giving everyone the closest parking space is not an option. How is allowing anyone to attend remotely not an option?
bilbo0s 7y ago
No no no. You want to make disabled people unfit? OK, change the Wisconsin Constitution. (Even if you did, I'm pretty sure it'd be illegal under ADA? But I might be mistaken about that?) In any case, until you do, if the people vote in a disabled person, then that person is the lawmaker representing those people. Full stop. We don't just get rid of someone else' lawmaker because we don't like something about him or her. The law likes something about that person, and that's the fact they were elected. You can't tell people who they can and cannot vote for. Or rather, you can, but you have to do it explicitly in the Constitution. (At least in Wisconsin you do.)

santoshalper 7y ago

The right and obvious solution is to make special accommodations for people with special needs.

AdrianB1 7y ago
That is not right and that is not obvious. First, because "right" means it is right for all, that would imply the same rights and obligations for everyone. Because it is not right, it is not obvious. The only right way is to give equal treatment to everyone.
- lazyasciiart 7y ago
  Obvious failure modes of "equal treatment to everyone" include six year olds joining the army.
  - modsiw 7y ago
    Oh oh oh. Can I play? Everyone is entitled to enter a restroom or no one is. I can get behind that. No more multi-toilet rooms with stall gaps.
  - hestipod 7y ago
    While I am strongly opposed to child labor and military conscription, a six year old can do a LOT of damage. I'd not want to face a squad of them on my best day.
- mffnbs 7y ago
  What are you gaining from removing disabled people from "everyone"? You're against protections for these people because it's not fair to you? Ever consider that your way is not fair to them and potentially any other arbitrarily defined group of people?
  - AdrianB1 7y ago
    I gain a backbone. People with disabilities are a noble cause, but not an argument for inequality of rights. Consider that being equal is not discriminatory against any "arbitrary defined group of people", exactly opposite to your arbitrary rights.
    - whatisthiseven 7y ago
      Why can't we reverse your argument and say that "equality of rights is a noble cause"? Sure, we would of course prefer that, but barring that, I would absolutely prefer well-reasoned compromises for disabilities than nihilistic idealism.
    - mffnbs 7y ago
      Being equal can easily discriminate against anyone because your definition of equality does not match everyone else's. So, in your case, being equal means that handicapped people aren't treated equally. What if you set your arbitrary equality definition to only apply to white people? Now you're being equal by your personal standards again but you just regressed to the 1800s. Your version of equality is worthless, your backbone is just an excuse to make yourself feel better.
- hestipod 7y ago
  You have the same right to accommodation when/if you are ever disabled as anyone else. If you aren't disabled and don't need the accommodation to function normally or without medical complications then you aren't being deprived of anything.
- modsiw 7y ago
  Everyone enjoys the right that if you are unable to fulfill your job due to a disability, and a reasonable accommodation could be provided which would allow you to fulfill your job, you’re entitled to the accommodation.
  - AdrianB1 7y ago
    "entitled" is starting an alarm to me. I know and lived some history.
- ensignro2340 7y ago
  Omg dude read about the ADA. You seem to have a deep misunderstand of things in the U.S.
  - AdrianB1 7y ago
    I am not from or in US, I am from and in Europe. We see "equal" as it in the dictionary, not bent backwards.
    - a_t48 7y ago
      https://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=1137 https://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=1137 The current EU govt. appears to disagree with you. Care to give an example?
    - ensignro2340 7y ago
      Wisconsin is in the US so US laws and regulations are what apply. Moreover it seems Europe also has similar legislation/protections for people with disabilities. This is equality. No bending necessary.

cortesoft 7y ago

> make special amendments for some people? This one. You make reasonable accommodations for people who can't follow the normal rules. This is how the ADA is worded - employers have to make reasonable accommodations as long as it doesn't prevent the person from doing their job.

AdrianB1 7y ago
How do you define reasonable? How do you justify making accommodations just for some people? Why not for all? Rights should be equal, not based on any discriminatory criteria.
- cortesoft 7y ago
  So are you against handicap parking? You define reasonable by using reason. You examine the situation and try to see if you can make an accommodation for the person that lets them do their job while not sacrificing performance. If you can, you do it. You justify making these accommodations because you realize that there are some people who have conditions that make following the same routines that most people do impossible. We also realize that if you let everyone have those accommodations, it will not be sustainable, so you grant special rights to certain people based on this. The handicap parking is a perfect example. Or pre-boarding flights for people in wheelchairs. Obviously you can't give everyone handicap parking, because that is the same as giving no one handicap parking. Some people can't travel as far, so we let them get the spots up front. Same with pre-boarding. If everyone pre-boarded, it would just be boarding. But we also know that some groups need more time and space to board, like people in wheelchairs. So we let them board early. I never understand this attitude that we aren't allowed to accommodate people who have hardships because it is unfair on people without those hardships. Like, what? The unfair part is that they HAVE the handicap in the first place, we are just trying to make it a little more fair. Life isn't fair, so we make laws that are a little unfair in the opposite direction to try to even it out.
  - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
    You're comparing two different things though. Not everyone can have the closest parking space, but couldn't everyone attend the meeting remotely? If you add the capability to do it then I can give you a thousand reasons why someone should need it. They could be photosensitive and need to avoid sunlight, or agoraphobic, or have children they can't leave home alone, or follow a religion that requires them not to look upon an uncovered woman who is not their wife. They could be poor and unable to afford the travel, or live far away from the meeting place. By the time I'm done listing reasons, there won't be anybody left without one. The same is true for parking spaces, but giving everyone the closest parking space is not an option. How is allowing anyone to attend remotely not an option?

bilbo0s 7y ago

No no no. You want to make disabled people unfit? OK, change the Wisconsin Constitution. (Even if you did, I'm pretty sure it'd be illegal under ADA? But I might be mistaken about that?) In any case, until you do, if the people vote in a disabled person, then that person is the lawmaker representing those people. Full stop. We don't just get rid of someone else' lawmaker because we don't like something about him or her. The law likes something about that person, and that's the fact they were elected. You can't tell people who they can and cannot vote for. Or rather, you can, but you have to do it explicitly in the Constitution. (At least in Wisconsin you do.)