5 ms·

This is fantastic. Not only have they effectively pushed Microsoft to improve things for everyone (in 1905 of Office and 1903 of Windows specifically, via new [

This is fantastic. Not only have they effectively pushed Microsoft to improve things for everyone (in 1905 of Office and 1903 of Windows specifically, via new [lower] telemetry options), but now Data Viewer supports Microsoft Office's telemetry, and we have more data on what Office's telemetry is doing. Overall well done PrivacyCompany and the Dutch Ministry of Justice and Security. Still seems to be fights left to have, but this is definitely a step in a positive direction.

hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago
Surely non-US governments should just reject software with intrusive telemetry?
- jszymborski 7y ago
  Many european gov'ts have been ditching MS Office for LibreOffice, and in some rarer cases Windows for Linux. Italy https://www.linuxjournal.com/content/italian-army-switches-libreoffice https://www.linuxjournal.com/content/italian-army-switches-l... UK https://archive.fo/l5n9Z https://archive.fo/l5n9Z France https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/collection/open-source-observatory-osor/news/french-gendarmerie-open-sou https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/collection/open-source-observato...
  - vanderZwan 7y ago
    I wonder how much these development may have motivated the recent change in attitude towards open source and Linux at Microsoft. I mean even if it had they'd never publicly acknowledge that, since it would be seen as a sign of weakness (and give more free press to the competition in a way)
    - gnode 7y ago
      I think the main reason Microsoft has become more Linux friendly is that it is crucial to the success of Azure, which has become a major part of Microsoft's business.
  - danieldk 7y ago
    the army aims to replace all MS Office installations by the end of the year. Seeing is believing. This has often been used as a strategy to get license discounts from Microsoft.
    - gmueckl 7y ago
      License discounts have been Microsofts strategy to persuade organizations to stay.
- gnode 7y ago
  For a variety of reasons, many of them are in the unfortunate and short-sighted position of being married to Windows and Microsoft software. Rejecting the software outright, and adopting some alternative would likely present larger costs and disruption. That said, there are a few cases in which the calculus favours this, or FOSS ideology prevails.
- danieldk 7y ago
  Since their training, workflow, and existing data/applications centers around Windows and Office and they are a comparatively big customer, it is probably easier/cheaper for them to strong arm Microsoft into compliance than moving to an alternative operating system and office suite. The interesting take-away from the article and the linked article is that in part they used the GDPR and Dutch privacy laws to force Microsoft into compliance: The processing of diagnostic data for so many broad and undefined purposes is contrary to the principle of purpose limitation. Additionally, in most cases, there is no legal basis for processing the diagnostic data for these purposes. As (sole or joint) controller, Microsoft cannot rely on the consent of employees as referred to in the GDPR because of the dependent position of employees. At the same time, consent is required under Section 11.7a of the Dutch Telecommunications Act for retrieving data via the Internet, through built-in software, if such processing is not strictly necessary. Which means that the GDPR does have teeth, which is good for everyone in the EU, not just governments or larger organizations. Similarly, the EU court of justice has recently decided based on the GDPR that web sites must ask consent for sending personal data by loading Facebook like buttons: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-facebook-dataprotection/companies-using-facebook-like-button-liable-for-data-eu-court-idUSKCN1UO1B4 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-facebook-dataprotectio...
spinningslate 7y ago
Agree it's great that the Dutch Government is pushing Microsoft to be more transparent. > Still seems to be fights left to have, but this is definitely a step in a positive direction. Indeed. From the article: "The Dutch government’s new privacy terms and conditions do not (yet) apply to data processing via Windows 10 Enterprise or the mobile Office apps. It is not possible to minimize data traffic in Office Online. From at least three of the mobile apps on iOS, data about the use of the apps goes to a US-American marketing company that specializes in predictive profiling. This is done without providing any information about the purposes of this processing, and without giving the users or administrators any possibility to prevent this processing." So: use Office on iOS, and it'll send usage data off to some predictive profiling marketing firm. Why, as a (presumably) paying user, is it OK for Microsoft to do that?
- eitland 7y ago
  > From at least three of the mobile apps on iOS, data about the use of the apps goes to a US-American marketing company that specializes in predictive profiling. @Microsoft folks here: This, if true (edit: in the way presented here) is outright disgusting. I have lately found myself defending you when people have been complaining about telemetry (I'm a developer myself so I can see the value), but selling (or giving away) data from Office apps to profiling companies is not ok. I honestly believed that your upside of such deals was the ability to easily upsell me to a paid version of this software. This, again if it is correct, is disgusting and might easily be a huge GDPR issue despite how many cookie warnings anyone adds.
  - danieldk 7y ago
    This, again if it is correct, is disgusting and might easily be a huge GDPR issue despite how many cookie warnings anyone adds. Indeed, remember that warnings here a not enough to comply with the GDPR. IANAL, but GDPR requires opt-in rather than opt out, there should be a clear choice, permission should be asked for specific purposes. Also, it should be possible to withdraw permissions, one should be able to retrieve all the stored data, and the data has to be removed on request.
hendersoon 7y ago
Unfortunately the Windows telemetry options only apply to Enterprise and Education versions. If you run Windows Home or Pro, Microsoft does not permit you to disable telemetry via any supported mechanism. You need to use a third-party tool to do it. I recommend Shutup10.
- endemic 7y ago
  Thanks for the recommendation. I’m grudgingly considering a Win10 install for gaming, and the mandatory telemetry is a hard pill to swallow.

hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago

Surely non-US governments should just reject software with intrusive telemetry?

jszymborski 7y ago
Many european gov'ts have been ditching MS Office for LibreOffice, and in some rarer cases Windows for Linux. Italy https://www.linuxjournal.com/content/italian-army-switches-libreoffice https://www.linuxjournal.com/content/italian-army-switches-l... UK https://archive.fo/l5n9Z https://archive.fo/l5n9Z France https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/collection/open-source-observatory-osor/news/french-gendarmerie-open-sou https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/collection/open-source-observato...
- vanderZwan 7y ago
  I wonder how much these development may have motivated the recent change in attitude towards open source and Linux at Microsoft. I mean even if it had they'd never publicly acknowledge that, since it would be seen as a sign of weakness (and give more free press to the competition in a way)
  - gnode 7y ago
    I think the main reason Microsoft has become more Linux friendly is that it is crucial to the success of Azure, which has become a major part of Microsoft's business.
- danieldk 7y ago
  the army aims to replace all MS Office installations by the end of the year. Seeing is believing. This has often been used as a strategy to get license discounts from Microsoft.
  - gmueckl 7y ago
    License discounts have been Microsofts strategy to persuade organizations to stay.
gnode 7y ago
For a variety of reasons, many of them are in the unfortunate and short-sighted position of being married to Windows and Microsoft software. Rejecting the software outright, and adopting some alternative would likely present larger costs and disruption. That said, there are a few cases in which the calculus favours this, or FOSS ideology prevails.
danieldk 7y ago
Since their training, workflow, and existing data/applications centers around Windows and Office and they are a comparatively big customer, it is probably easier/cheaper for them to strong arm Microsoft into compliance than moving to an alternative operating system and office suite. The interesting take-away from the article and the linked article is that in part they used the GDPR and Dutch privacy laws to force Microsoft into compliance: The processing of diagnostic data for so many broad and undefined purposes is contrary to the principle of purpose limitation. Additionally, in most cases, there is no legal basis for processing the diagnostic data for these purposes. As (sole or joint) controller, Microsoft cannot rely on the consent of employees as referred to in the GDPR because of the dependent position of employees. At the same time, consent is required under Section 11.7a of the Dutch Telecommunications Act for retrieving data via the Internet, through built-in software, if such processing is not strictly necessary. Which means that the GDPR does have teeth, which is good for everyone in the EU, not just governments or larger organizations. Similarly, the EU court of justice has recently decided based on the GDPR that web sites must ask consent for sending personal data by loading Facebook like buttons: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-facebook-dataprotection/companies-using-facebook-like-button-liable-for-data-eu-court-idUSKCN1UO1B4 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-facebook-dataprotectio...

spinningslate 7y ago

Agree it's great that the Dutch Government is pushing Microsoft to be more transparent. > Still seems to be fights left to have, but this is definitely a step in a positive direction. Indeed. From the article: "The Dutch government’s new privacy terms and conditions do not (yet) apply to data processing via Windows 10 Enterprise or the mobile Office apps. It is not possible to minimize data traffic in Office Online. From at least three of the mobile apps on iOS, data about the use of the apps goes to a US-American marketing company that specializes in predictive profiling. This is done without providing any information about the purposes of this processing, and without giving the users or administrators any possibility to prevent this processing." So: use Office on iOS, and it'll send usage data off to some predictive profiling marketing firm. Why, as a (presumably) paying user, is it OK for Microsoft to do that?

eitland 7y ago
> From at least three of the mobile apps on iOS, data about the use of the apps goes to a US-American marketing company that specializes in predictive profiling. @Microsoft folks here: This, if true (edit: in the way presented here) is outright disgusting. I have lately found myself defending you when people have been complaining about telemetry (I'm a developer myself so I can see the value), but selling (or giving away) data from Office apps to profiling companies is not ok. I honestly believed that your upside of such deals was the ability to easily upsell me to a paid version of this software. This, again if it is correct, is disgusting and might easily be a huge GDPR issue despite how many cookie warnings anyone adds.
- danieldk 7y ago
  This, again if it is correct, is disgusting and might easily be a huge GDPR issue despite how many cookie warnings anyone adds. Indeed, remember that warnings here a not enough to comply with the GDPR. IANAL, but GDPR requires opt-in rather than opt out, there should be a clear choice, permission should be asked for specific purposes. Also, it should be possible to withdraw permissions, one should be able to retrieve all the stored data, and the data has to be removed on request.

hendersoon 7y ago

Unfortunately the Windows telemetry options only apply to Enterprise and Education versions. If you run Windows Home or Pro, Microsoft does not permit you to disable telemetry via any supported mechanism. You need to use a third-party tool to do it. I recommend Shutup10.

endemic 7y ago
Thanks for the recommendation. I’m grudgingly considering a Win10 install for gaming, and the mandatory telemetry is a hard pill to swallow.