6 ms·

Love to try this out some day, a shame that this isn't in Python 2. EDIT: Thanks HN, try working in an industry where every new project is in Python 2, and hav

Love to try this out some day, a shame that this isn't in Python 2. EDIT: Thanks HN, try working in an industry where every new project is in Python 2, and have no intention to move on, before saying "moeve to 3", it doesn't help at all.

solarkraft 7y ago
Please, please don't use Python 2.
- kgraves 7y ago
  Tell that to the industry I work in (Games, Movies & VFX) where most of the tools & 3D software scripting are still in Python 2. Not all of us move fast and break things here, unlike the web dev world.
  - ggm 7y ago
    Oh please. The EOL on python2 has been massively pre announced. Games, Movies and VFX can afford the port costs and have a huge liability looming. There was no "move fast and break things" in this python 3
    - kgraves 7y ago
      > Oh please. The EOL on python2 has been massively pre announced. Nope, not when new versions of software comes out with Python 2 still, (can't do anything about those licences bought) small studios cannot afford moving/rewriting tools in P2 to 3, not a priority, rather keep P2.
      - joshuamorton 7y ago
        Then complain to the companies you license software from for continuing to build on a soft-deprecated platform. Don't complain to developers for ignoring a platform whose deprecation was announced over a decade ago. And certainly don't badmouth people who are using the not-deprecated tool as being ok with unstable infra.
        kgraves 7y ago
        > Then complain to the companies you license software from for continuing to build on a soft-deprecated platform. You think we haven't been doing this? We had a representative from one of these vendors come in to discuss their roadmap, they told us straight up that "We still intend to keep using Python 2". > Don't complain to developers for ignoring a platform whose deprecation was announced over a decade ago. Yes, because web dev is the hot tech stuff now, nobody wants to work in a boring sector, so they are not willing to change anything, cycle continues. > And certainly don't badmouth people who are using the not-deprecated tool as being ok with unstable infra. I read this sentence twice and I still don't understand what you're trying to say, clarify?
        joshuamorton 7y ago
        > Yes, because web dev is the hot tech stuff now, nobody wants to work in a boring sector, so they are not willing to change anything, cycle continues. Change what? You're asking for...what exactly? People to provide support for a deprecated platform? That just encourages those companies you're complaining about to continue to use python2 and further splits the ecosystem. No!
        kgraves 7y ago
        > Change what? You're asking for...what exactly? People to provide support for a deprecated platform? Instead of trying to put words in my mouth and being hostile, try to address my concerns. What I mean is that nobody that is a dev wants to work in a slow boring sector, Which means no work gets done to Python 3 on the vendor side hence, studios like ours keep developing on it. Nothing changes and no choice other than leaving.
      - jsjohnst 7y ago
        Can you name some of this software?
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - coldtea 7y ago
      >Oh please. The EOL on python2 has been massively pre announced. Which is neither here, nor there. Pre-announcing doesn't give any reason or motive (or funding) for porting large codebases. Many businesses stuck with 2.x will fund 2.x maintenance if the core devs don't do it, and port on their own schedule not on whatever was "pre announced".
  - kbumsik 7y ago
    > Not all of us move fast and break things here, unlike the web dev world. Then how many more years do they need to switch to Python3?
    - jsjohnst 7y ago
      > Then how many more years Could almost really say “how many decades” at this point.
    - coldtea 7y ago
      What if they don't want to switch to anything they aren't absolutely forced to, and otherwise 2.x works for them, period? How many years does it take companies to switch from COBOL (which still runs billions of lines of 40+ years critical code)?
  - jnbiche 7y ago
    > Not all of us move fast and break things here, unlike the web dev world. I had to roll my eyes at that one. Fine if your industry is accepting the high risk of using deprecated releases for new software, but don't try to act like upgrading from deprecated software is "moving fast and breaking things". This deprecation has been announced for 6 years. Python 3 was released over a decade ago. This ain't a new JavaScript built tool -- this is a carefully planned end-of-life situation for a very old piece of technology.
    - gpderetta 7y ago
      Another option is of course to use tools that take backward compatibility seriously.
      - jnbiche 7y ago
        Sure, do that. I'm not a Python fanboy, and there were some issues with how the transition was handled. Move to another language if you have the manpower. I think in in this case, since they claim to not even have the manpower to do some relatively straight-forward migrations from Python 2 -> 3 and/or they have some dependencies on Python2, I'm doubtful that's even an option. I'm just pointing out that it's a risky move to adopt a soon-to-be-deprecated programming language for new projects, given the potential for security issues that won't be patched. It's the kind of ignorant arrogance that has always bugged me about many companies with non-technical management (please note: these words are not directed at user kgrave given that this appears an edict from above at his company, and he's unable to change it).
jnbiche 7y ago
Please don't use Python 2 for any software that anyone else will ever have to work with or maintain. Python 2 is very close to being not supported anymore, which means no more security updates, etc.
- kgraves 7y ago
  Totally agree, but unfortunately, when you're in a slow moving industry you don't have the luxury of doing rewrites on a whim. You'd be surprised how Python 2 is _still_ being used in this day and age.
  - jnbiche 7y ago
    OK, but please just tell your bosses that their poor decisions to build new software in Python 2 will put your companies at risk of security exploits for the lifetime of the new software you're building in Python 2. I can almost understand if you have legacy software that your bosses don't want to move to Python 3, but actually building new software in Python 2? It's just crazy and asking for serious problems in the very near future.
    - kgraves 7y ago
      > ...But actually building _new_ software in Python 2? It's just crazy and asking for serious problems in the very near future. Yes, sadly this still happens.
gdfasfklshg4 7y ago
Me too but it's not been released in ALGOL 68 either! Upgrade. Or accept that you are using a dead language.
kbumsik 7y ago
This library uses asyncio, which is Python3. What do you expect? You may be okay to stick with Python 2, but this means you also agree not to expect new features and new libraries. So please don't mention Python 2 to a new library.
jsjohnst 7y ago
Does your industry still use Windows XP/Vista, or PHP4, or Ruby 1.8.7, or Apache 1.x, or MySQL 4.1 or RHEL 5? Those are roughly equivalent era.
- th3iedkid 7y ago
  In an industry where win95 appears to be the norm (if not VAX!) but not complaining when don't see flashy libraries or tools support. It does feel good , when some claim support however.
- coldtea 7y ago
  Python 2.7 is still maintained, and the last version came out in March IIRC, so there's that. Lots of big players still use Python 2 (Google being the most prominent), and untold smaller players. Besides, Windows XP and PHP are also in use, as are 50+ year old COBOL systems, so there's that. Unless you come in and do the port yourself, many systems are not getting ported anytime soon. RedHat and co will continue to release 2.7 patches for the foreseeable future, long after 2020.
  - newaccoutnas 7y ago
    Surely the number of eyes looking at that codebase will vastly diminish though? You may get RH and co backporting massively obvious issues but there will be many other smaller issues that won't be found. Also Google have golang, which I'd imagine would be their target now, not python 3 (for migrations)
    - coldtea 7y ago
      >Surely the number of eyes looking at that codebase will vastly diminish though? I don't think the "many eyes" theory ever panned out. There are projects used by billions, and on which thousands of other FOSS projects work, and only have like a handful of people working at the codebase (and less catching bugs) >Also Google have golang, which I'd imagine would be their target now, not python 3 (for migrations) Not really, Golang was never Google's official/mandated language. Just a language some Googlers made with Google's use cases in mind. Google still uses C++, Java, and Python (plus some Dart). Some things use Golang, but not in some top-down "Googlers shall use Golang" way.
newaccoutnas 7y ago
https://pythonclock.org/ https://pythonclock.org/ - 5 Months and 2 days to go. Do not do any new projects in Python 2. There is no technical reason for you to do so. If management is an issue, show them the facts. Also, Python 3.9 is now out which means there's been more than enough time to migrate - https://docs.python.org/3.9/whatsnew/3.9.html https://docs.python.org/3.9/whatsnew/3.9.html
- jwineinger 7y ago
  3.8 won't be released until late October (https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0569/ https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0569/). 3.9 is a ways off.
  - newaccoutnas 7y ago
    Sorry, should have stated it's a pre-release.
- newen 7y ago
  Seriously though, why would a company want to start a months long project of moving from python 2 to 3, when their current setup works perfectly, and the project involves the horrifying boring chore of going through every single line of code and making simple changes, and hope that their tests still works, there are no edge cases that crop up due to minor changes in the new version, etc., etc., etc. Seems much more sensible to stick with something that works.
  - newaccoutnas 7y ago
    Well, because you're developing against an unsupported runtime. No bug or security updates. If that's fine for you, feel free, otherwise get with the (supported) program. If it's a new project, there are no excuses imho
    - newaccoutnas 7y ago
      In addition I don't think you'd have to interrogate every line, depending on your codebase and upstream module support for Python 3. There are tools like: http://python-future.org/automatic_conversion.html http://python-future.org/automatic_conversion.html and https://python-modernize.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ https://python-modernize.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ Which should get you most of the way there. Look at https://docs.python.org/3/howto/pyporting.html https://docs.python.org/3/howto/pyporting.html for more info
diminoten 7y ago
What industry is it, might I ask (so I can know to avoid it)? If you say airline...
dtf 7y ago
Sorry you’re getting downvoted! It’s amazing how far behind the tools in your industry are, despite Python being the standard tooling language. Proprietary tools are the worst offenders (compared with Blender has been Python 3 only since version 2.5) For anyone interested, this is the VFX industry reference platform, which is finally hoping to move to Python 3 next year: https://vfxplatform.com/ https://vfxplatform.com/

solarkraft 7y ago

Please, please don't use Python 2.

kgraves 7y ago
Tell that to the industry I work in (Games, Movies & VFX) where most of the tools & 3D software scripting are still in Python 2. Not all of us move fast and break things here, unlike the web dev world.
- ggm 7y ago
  Oh please. The EOL on python2 has been massively pre announced. Games, Movies and VFX can afford the port costs and have a huge liability looming. There was no "move fast and break things" in this python 3
  - kgraves 7y ago
    > Oh please. The EOL on python2 has been massively pre announced. Nope, not when new versions of software comes out with Python 2 still, (can't do anything about those licences bought) small studios cannot afford moving/rewriting tools in P2 to 3, not a priority, rather keep P2.
    - joshuamorton 7y ago
      Then complain to the companies you license software from for continuing to build on a soft-deprecated platform. Don't complain to developers for ignoring a platform whose deprecation was announced over a decade ago. And certainly don't badmouth people who are using the not-deprecated tool as being ok with unstable infra.
      - kgraves 7y ago
        > Then complain to the companies you license software from for continuing to build on a soft-deprecated platform. You think we haven't been doing this? We had a representative from one of these vendors come in to discuss their roadmap, they told us straight up that "We still intend to keep using Python 2". > Don't complain to developers for ignoring a platform whose deprecation was announced over a decade ago. Yes, because web dev is the hot tech stuff now, nobody wants to work in a boring sector, so they are not willing to change anything, cycle continues. > And certainly don't badmouth people who are using the not-deprecated tool as being ok with unstable infra. I read this sentence twice and I still don't understand what you're trying to say, clarify?
        joshuamorton 7y ago
        > Yes, because web dev is the hot tech stuff now, nobody wants to work in a boring sector, so they are not willing to change anything, cycle continues. Change what? You're asking for...what exactly? People to provide support for a deprecated platform? That just encourages those companies you're complaining about to continue to use python2 and further splits the ecosystem. No!
        kgraves 7y ago
        > Change what? You're asking for...what exactly? People to provide support for a deprecated platform? Instead of trying to put words in my mouth and being hostile, try to address my concerns. What I mean is that nobody that is a dev wants to work in a slow boring sector, Which means no work gets done to Python 3 on the vendor side hence, studios like ours keep developing on it. Nothing changes and no choice other than leaving.
    - jsjohnst 7y ago
      Can you name some of this software?
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >Oh please. The EOL on python2 has been massively pre announced. Which is neither here, nor there. Pre-announcing doesn't give any reason or motive (or funding) for porting large codebases. Many businesses stuck with 2.x will fund 2.x maintenance if the core devs don't do it, and port on their own schedule not on whatever was "pre announced".
- kbumsik 7y ago
  > Not all of us move fast and break things here, unlike the web dev world. Then how many more years do they need to switch to Python3?
  - jsjohnst 7y ago
    > Then how many more years Could almost really say “how many decades” at this point.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    What if they don't want to switch to anything they aren't absolutely forced to, and otherwise 2.x works for them, period? How many years does it take companies to switch from COBOL (which still runs billions of lines of 40+ years critical code)?
- jnbiche 7y ago
  > Not all of us move fast and break things here, unlike the web dev world. I had to roll my eyes at that one. Fine if your industry is accepting the high risk of using deprecated releases for new software, but don't try to act like upgrading from deprecated software is "moving fast and breaking things". This deprecation has been announced for 6 years. Python 3 was released over a decade ago. This ain't a new JavaScript built tool -- this is a carefully planned end-of-life situation for a very old piece of technology.
  - gpderetta 7y ago
    Another option is of course to use tools that take backward compatibility seriously.
    - jnbiche 7y ago
      Sure, do that. I'm not a Python fanboy, and there were some issues with how the transition was handled. Move to another language if you have the manpower. I think in in this case, since they claim to not even have the manpower to do some relatively straight-forward migrations from Python 2 -> 3 and/or they have some dependencies on Python2, I'm doubtful that's even an option. I'm just pointing out that it's a risky move to adopt a soon-to-be-deprecated programming language for new projects, given the potential for security issues that won't be patched. It's the kind of ignorant arrogance that has always bugged me about many companies with non-technical management (please note: these words are not directed at user kgrave given that this appears an edict from above at his company, and he's unable to change it).

jnbiche 7y ago

Please don't use Python 2 for any software that anyone else will ever have to work with or maintain. Python 2 is very close to being not supported anymore, which means no more security updates, etc.

kgraves 7y ago
Totally agree, but unfortunately, when you're in a slow moving industry you don't have the luxury of doing rewrites on a whim. You'd be surprised how Python 2 is _still_ being used in this day and age.
- jnbiche 7y ago
  OK, but please just tell your bosses that their poor decisions to build new software in Python 2 will put your companies at risk of security exploits for the lifetime of the new software you're building in Python 2. I can almost understand if you have legacy software that your bosses don't want to move to Python 3, but actually building new software in Python 2? It's just crazy and asking for serious problems in the very near future.
  - kgraves 7y ago
    > ...But actually building _new_ software in Python 2? It's just crazy and asking for serious problems in the very near future. Yes, sadly this still happens.

gdfasfklshg4 7y ago

Me too but it's not been released in ALGOL 68 either! Upgrade. Or accept that you are using a dead language.

kbumsik 7y ago

This library uses asyncio, which is Python3. What do you expect? You may be okay to stick with Python 2, but this means you also agree not to expect new features and new libraries. So please don't mention Python 2 to a new library.

jsjohnst 7y ago

Does your industry still use Windows XP/Vista, or PHP4, or Ruby 1.8.7, or Apache 1.x, or MySQL 4.1 or RHEL 5? Those are roughly equivalent era.

th3iedkid 7y ago
In an industry where win95 appears to be the norm (if not VAX!) but not complaining when don't see flashy libraries or tools support. It does feel good , when some claim support however.
coldtea 7y ago
Python 2.7 is still maintained, and the last version came out in March IIRC, so there's that. Lots of big players still use Python 2 (Google being the most prominent), and untold smaller players. Besides, Windows XP and PHP are also in use, as are 50+ year old COBOL systems, so there's that. Unless you come in and do the port yourself, many systems are not getting ported anytime soon. RedHat and co will continue to release 2.7 patches for the foreseeable future, long after 2020.
- newaccoutnas 7y ago
  Surely the number of eyes looking at that codebase will vastly diminish though? You may get RH and co backporting massively obvious issues but there will be many other smaller issues that won't be found. Also Google have golang, which I'd imagine would be their target now, not python 3 (for migrations)
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >Surely the number of eyes looking at that codebase will vastly diminish though? I don't think the "many eyes" theory ever panned out. There are projects used by billions, and on which thousands of other FOSS projects work, and only have like a handful of people working at the codebase (and less catching bugs) >Also Google have golang, which I'd imagine would be their target now, not python 3 (for migrations) Not really, Golang was never Google's official/mandated language. Just a language some Googlers made with Google's use cases in mind. Google still uses C++, Java, and Python (plus some Dart). Some things use Golang, but not in some top-down "Googlers shall use Golang" way.

newaccoutnas 7y ago

https://pythonclock.org/ https://pythonclock.org/ - 5 Months and 2 days to go. Do not do any new projects in Python 2. There is no technical reason for you to do so. If management is an issue, show them the facts. Also, Python 3.9 is now out which means there's been more than enough time to migrate - https://docs.python.org/3.9/whatsnew/3.9.html https://docs.python.org/3.9/whatsnew/3.9.html

jwineinger 7y ago
3.8 won't be released until late October (https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0569/ https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0569/). 3.9 is a ways off.
- newaccoutnas 7y ago
  Sorry, should have stated it's a pre-release.
newen 7y ago
Seriously though, why would a company want to start a months long project of moving from python 2 to 3, when their current setup works perfectly, and the project involves the horrifying boring chore of going through every single line of code and making simple changes, and hope that their tests still works, there are no edge cases that crop up due to minor changes in the new version, etc., etc., etc. Seems much more sensible to stick with something that works.
- newaccoutnas 7y ago
  Well, because you're developing against an unsupported runtime. No bug or security updates. If that's fine for you, feel free, otherwise get with the (supported) program. If it's a new project, there are no excuses imho
  - newaccoutnas 7y ago
    In addition I don't think you'd have to interrogate every line, depending on your codebase and upstream module support for Python 3. There are tools like: http://python-future.org/automatic_conversion.html http://python-future.org/automatic_conversion.html and https://python-modernize.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ https://python-modernize.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ Which should get you most of the way there. Look at https://docs.python.org/3/howto/pyporting.html https://docs.python.org/3/howto/pyporting.html for more info

diminoten 7y ago

What industry is it, might I ask (so I can know to avoid it)? If you say airline...

dtf 7y ago

Sorry you’re getting downvoted! It’s amazing how far behind the tools in your industry are, despite Python being the standard tooling language. Proprietary tools are the worst offenders (compared with Blender has been Python 3 only since version 2.5) For anyone interested, this is the VFX industry reference platform, which is finally hoping to move to Python 3 next year: https://vfxplatform.com/ https://vfxplatform.com/