4 ms·

> Most suicides occur while the person is alone. Company can be a strong deterrent to attempting suicide. This is a lot more complicated than you're making it

by DanBC 7y ago

> Most suicides occur while the person is alone. Company can be a strong deterrent to attempting suicide. This is a lot more complicated than you're making it out. plenty of people kill themselves in front of their family. Others kill themselves when their family are in the home. Others kill themselves in public. Others kill themselves in hospital wards when they're on 15 minute observations. These are not a tiny fraction of the total number of people who kill themselves. EDIT: I'm glad you've found something that works _for you_, but it's really important to recognise that your experience is not usual, and that many people would find it invalidating. EDIT: Page 33. https://documents.manchester.ac.uk/display.aspx?DocID=38469 https://documents.manchester.ac.uk/display.aspx?DocID=38469 > Living alone -- Women: 45% Men 50% This shows that living alone is a risk factor, but it also shows that most people who die by suicide do not live alone. Page 55 suggests that it's external support that helps, not support by the family: > 149. In 834 (43%) the patient lived alone. They were less likely to receive additional social support from outside the home (e.g. from a relative, friend or neighbour) as part of their care plan compared to those who did not live alone (138, 44% excluding unknowns vs. 270, 71%

krageon 7y ago
You are correct, if you really want to do it then you are always going to do it. If you just want to do it a lot, sometimes a little company helps! It can't hurt to try, at worst you'll only live a little longer.
- DanBC 7y ago
  That's definitely not what I'm saying. Some people don't have a strong intention to die but use a method with high lethality and do die. > It can't hurt to try, at worst you'll only live a little longer. Some people have abusive families that increase risk.
  - krageon 7y ago
    > Some people don't have a strong intention to die but use a method with high lethality and do die. I don't understand what you're saying here. Are you implying a significant enough fraction of people that it bears discussing tries to commit suicide but doesn't really want to die? And even if this is the case, how is that relevant to what we were discussing? > Some people have abusive families that increase risk. I never said it had to be family did I? And even if this is true, why does the fact that this is true for some people mean that the average person should not try it at all? Edit: Not even the original comment was saying it had to be family. They were talking about having company. I don't understand why you are suddenly making this about one specific set of people.
    - DanBC 7y ago
      > Are you implying a significant enough fraction of people that it bears discussing tries to commit suicide but doesn't really want to die Yes. This is why some countries use "accidental death with undetermined intent" as part of their definition of suicide. Some people self harm frequently and severely. When we talk to them we find out that they do not want to die; that they fear death. But their self harm is so severe and extensive that they are at risk of death. For example, we see people trying to engage with mental health services, trying to get treatment for their self harm, but continuing to self harm and then accidentally dying by overdose. > I don't understand why you are suddenly making this about one specific set of people. Suicide kills significant numbers of people. It's important that advice is evidence based. "Have company" is not evidence based. When we give incorrect advice it increases risk; people die.
      - DoreenMichele 7y ago
        It's important that advice is evidence based. "Have company" is not evidence based. When we give incorrect advice it increases risk; people die. A former homemaker telling her story on a discussion forum does not carry the same weight of authority as, say, the CDC in the US putting out official guidelines on how to deal with a suicidal person. I'm not the only person who has found it helpful to deal with my own suicidal tendencies by seeking a "babysitter" in my social circle. President Lincoln was prone to being suicidal. It was his policy to never carry a pocket knife and to have friends keep him company when his dark moods struck. I know there are other things I've read pertinent that support the idea that this is an effective approach for some people. I can't currently recall more and I'm in the midst of moving right this minute, plus you have an extremely long history of attacking me personally, wildly misinterpreting my remarks, etc. I do my level best to view that pattern as due to you being British and me American -- "two nations separated by a common language" -- but the pattern is so consistent that it's quite difficult for me to keep doing that. I cannot recall a single instance where your interaction with me did not feel like a personal attack. Taking it down from actively and openly ugly and hostile to politely shooting me down doesn't read on my end like you've had a change of heart and are trying to build bridges. It reads on my end like you've just gotten better at politely following the rules while pursuing a personal campaign to go after me for some reason. If your actual concern is that you believe me to be giving advice in some authoritative fashion that suggests "this is the one and only proper answer" -- which I generally do my best to not do -- there are many ways to address that concern that don't come across like you don't want me speaking on this subject at all. I will keep your stated concern in mind and perhaps not intro my remarks with PSA in the future. However, that wasn't used to suggest "this is authoritative advice on the topic." It was used to suggest "This is not a suicidal person crying on your shoulder. It is intended to be a constructive and thought-provoking addition to the conversation." because it's really common for people to engage with my remarks as if I'm looking for sympathy or advice or otherwise make it about me rather than about the topic at hand. I'm well aware that I can opt to not tell my story, but other people here are usually not told they should never ever say anything about themselves if they don't want intrusive attention of that sort. There seems to be a gendered component to the pattern where simply knowing I'm a woman inspires a lot of people to want to make a personal connection with me, regardless of what I say, rather than engage with my point. I've been here a decade. I've put in considerable effort to figure out how to better engage here to reduce the worst of the drama, but the reality is that I can't control nor even anticipate every single reaction of the five million people a month that visit this site and it's a moving target. If I solve for x, five minutes later I will be dealing with some new iteration of the problem.
DoreenMichele 7y ago
I'm glad you've found something that works _for you_, but it's really important to recognise that your experience is not usual, and that many people would find it invalidating. My experience is a statistical outlier best case scenario. That's exactly the point of sharing it. It took years for my sons to develop the details of this approach. Our lives got vastly better when they stopped replying to $crazything with attempted rebuttal and began replying with "Are you hungry? Thirsty? Warm enough?" > Living alone -- Women: 45% Men 50% This shows that living alone is a risk factor, but it also shows that most people who die by suicide do not live alone. That is not directly salient to my point that the act of suicide tends to occur while physically alone, which is certainly not an assertion that it's 100% of the time. I'm well aware that family can be part of the problem. Family was absolutely part of the problem when I attempted suicide at age 17. It's generally not constructive to assume the worst about total strangers on the internet and lecture them as if they must be abusive people if they have a relative who is prone to suicidal ideation. In fact, that approach tends to make problems worse. Abusive situations don't necessarily start with any intent to abuse. They can occur because someone either feels responsible or actually is legally responsible and doesn't have adequate knowledge or tools for coping effectively. Desperate attempts to control another person in order to avoid X outcome easily turn abusive. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." Sometimes simply knowing that it's possible to get through it in a humane and constructive fashion is sufficient to allow more rational impulses to rule the day. Giving in to a sense of desperation or hopelessness is typically not a good thing when facing serious problems.
ljm 7y ago
There is value in moving away from those statistics and looking at the other part of DoorenMichele’s story, which to me feels like one of compassion. Having people around you who can support you while maintaining their own boundaries, without getting themselves involved or colluding with that state of mind you’re in, can be really powerful. It means you’re still being treated like a human being who has needs beyond what they are panicking about in the moment. Anecdotally, I’ve been through far too many of those kinds of breakdown to count and I was grateful when the friend I was with (who understood the underlying causes) asked if I needed a hug, or said “I love you,” and basically didn’t react to whatever I’d started crying about. I could be another statistical outlier in that sense but there was always a better alternative than engaging the conversation, and making it more real. You can probably guess that was family related.
- DanBC 7y ago
  > can be really powerful. It can also be invalidating and harmful. I've met far more people for whom it's harmful than I have who were helped by it. It's also causing harm to those other people: a relative who attempts suicide will increase your own risk of suicide. I've spoken to a lot of people who had a relative who died by suicide. Many of them had carer roles for their loved ones. Every single one of them who had this carer role spoke about the huge amount of guilt they now feel, and about their own significant increase in risk of death by suicide.

by DanBC 7y ago

krageon 7y ago

You are correct, if you really want to do it then you are always going to do it. If you just want to do it a lot, sometimes a little company helps! It can't hurt to try, at worst you'll only live a little longer.

DanBC 7y ago
That's definitely not what I'm saying. Some people don't have a strong intention to die but use a method with high lethality and do die. > It can't hurt to try, at worst you'll only live a little longer. Some people have abusive families that increase risk.
- krageon 7y ago
  > Some people don't have a strong intention to die but use a method with high lethality and do die. I don't understand what you're saying here. Are you implying a significant enough fraction of people that it bears discussing tries to commit suicide but doesn't really want to die? And even if this is the case, how is that relevant to what we were discussing? > Some people have abusive families that increase risk. I never said it had to be family did I? And even if this is true, why does the fact that this is true for some people mean that the average person should not try it at all? Edit: Not even the original comment was saying it had to be family. They were talking about having company. I don't understand why you are suddenly making this about one specific set of people.
  - DanBC 7y ago
    > Are you implying a significant enough fraction of people that it bears discussing tries to commit suicide but doesn't really want to die Yes. This is why some countries use "accidental death with undetermined intent" as part of their definition of suicide. Some people self harm frequently and severely. When we talk to them we find out that they do not want to die; that they fear death. But their self harm is so severe and extensive that they are at risk of death. For example, we see people trying to engage with mental health services, trying to get treatment for their self harm, but continuing to self harm and then accidentally dying by overdose. > I don't understand why you are suddenly making this about one specific set of people. Suicide kills significant numbers of people. It's important that advice is evidence based. "Have company" is not evidence based. When we give incorrect advice it increases risk; people die.
    - DoreenMichele 7y ago
      It's important that advice is evidence based. "Have company" is not evidence based. When we give incorrect advice it increases risk; people die. A former homemaker telling her story on a discussion forum does not carry the same weight of authority as, say, the CDC in the US putting out official guidelines on how to deal with a suicidal person. I'm not the only person who has found it helpful to deal with my own suicidal tendencies by seeking a "babysitter" in my social circle. President Lincoln was prone to being suicidal. It was his policy to never carry a pocket knife and to have friends keep him company when his dark moods struck. I know there are other things I've read pertinent that support the idea that this is an effective approach for some people. I can't currently recall more and I'm in the midst of moving right this minute, plus you have an extremely long history of attacking me personally, wildly misinterpreting my remarks, etc. I do my level best to view that pattern as due to you being British and me American -- "two nations separated by a common language" -- but the pattern is so consistent that it's quite difficult for me to keep doing that. I cannot recall a single instance where your interaction with me did not feel like a personal attack. Taking it down from actively and openly ugly and hostile to politely shooting me down doesn't read on my end like you've had a change of heart and are trying to build bridges. It reads on my end like you've just gotten better at politely following the rules while pursuing a personal campaign to go after me for some reason. If your actual concern is that you believe me to be giving advice in some authoritative fashion that suggests "this is the one and only proper answer" -- which I generally do my best to not do -- there are many ways to address that concern that don't come across like you don't want me speaking on this subject at all. I will keep your stated concern in mind and perhaps not intro my remarks with PSA in the future. However, that wasn't used to suggest "this is authoritative advice on the topic." It was used to suggest "This is not a suicidal person crying on your shoulder. It is intended to be a constructive and thought-provoking addition to the conversation." because it's really common for people to engage with my remarks as if I'm looking for sympathy or advice or otherwise make it about me rather than about the topic at hand. I'm well aware that I can opt to not tell my story, but other people here are usually not told they should never ever say anything about themselves if they don't want intrusive attention of that sort. There seems to be a gendered component to the pattern where simply knowing I'm a woman inspires a lot of people to want to make a personal connection with me, regardless of what I say, rather than engage with my point. I've been here a decade. I've put in considerable effort to figure out how to better engage here to reduce the worst of the drama, but the reality is that I can't control nor even anticipate every single reaction of the five million people a month that visit this site and it's a moving target. If I solve for x, five minutes later I will be dealing with some new iteration of the problem.

DoreenMichele 7y ago

I'm glad you've found something that works _for you_, but it's really important to recognise that your experience is not usual, and that many people would find it invalidating. My experience is a statistical outlier best case scenario. That's exactly the point of sharing it. It took years for my sons to develop the details of this approach. Our lives got vastly better when they stopped replying to $crazything with attempted rebuttal and began replying with "Are you hungry? Thirsty? Warm enough?" > Living alone -- Women: 45% Men 50% This shows that living alone is a risk factor, but it also shows that most people who die by suicide do not live alone. That is not directly salient to my point that the act of suicide tends to occur while physically alone, which is certainly not an assertion that it's 100% of the time. I'm well aware that family can be part of the problem. Family was absolutely part of the problem when I attempted suicide at age 17. It's generally not constructive to assume the worst about total strangers on the internet and lecture them as if they must be abusive people if they have a relative who is prone to suicidal ideation. In fact, that approach tends to make problems worse. Abusive situations don't necessarily start with any intent to abuse. They can occur because someone either feels responsible or actually is legally responsible and doesn't have adequate knowledge or tools for coping effectively. Desperate attempts to control another person in order to avoid X outcome easily turn abusive. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." Sometimes simply knowing that it's possible to get through it in a humane and constructive fashion is sufficient to allow more rational impulses to rule the day. Giving in to a sense of desperation or hopelessness is typically not a good thing when facing serious problems.

ljm 7y ago

There is value in moving away from those statistics and looking at the other part of DoorenMichele’s story, which to me feels like one of compassion. Having people around you who can support you while maintaining their own boundaries, without getting themselves involved or colluding with that state of mind you’re in, can be really powerful. It means you’re still being treated like a human being who has needs beyond what they are panicking about in the moment. Anecdotally, I’ve been through far too many of those kinds of breakdown to count and I was grateful when the friend I was with (who understood the underlying causes) asked if I needed a hug, or said “I love you,” and basically didn’t react to whatever I’d started crying about. I could be another statistical outlier in that sense but there was always a better alternative than engaging the conversation, and making it more real. You can probably guess that was family related.

DanBC 7y ago
> can be really powerful. It can also be invalidating and harmful. I've met far more people for whom it's harmful than I have who were helped by it. It's also causing harm to those other people: a relative who attempts suicide will increase your own risk of suicide. I've spoken to a lot of people who had a relative who died by suicide. Many of them had carer roles for their loved ones. Every single one of them who had this carer role spoke about the huge amount of guilt they now feel, and about their own significant increase in risk of death by suicide.