5 ms·

This is a question I've found myself asking quite a bit lately. Paper products are often marketed as a 'green' alternative to petroleum products. IIRC much of t

by sh-run 7y ago

This is a question I've found myself asking quite a bit lately. Paper products are often marketed as a 'green' alternative to petroleum products. IIRC much of the plastic we use is made from a byproduct of the oil refinement process so it's something we have anyways. Even though paper products biodegrade quicker, it seems like unless the paper product is made from 100% post consumer waste a properly disposed plastic product is better for the environment. I do think part of the problem is that so many of our landfills are poorly managed. In high school I used to spend my summers working for the public works department in the rural community I grew up in. A few days out of the month we had to go out to the fields near the landfill and pick up plastic bags and other bits of trash that had blown out of the landfill before being covered. I say this as someone who avoids single use plastics, drinks tap water, recycles, etc.

Scoundreller 7y ago
More like plastics are usually made from polyethylene. Thanks to fracking, the ethane that goes into making it is dirt cheap in N. America. More and more polyethylene plants are being set up all the time.
graeme 7y ago
Plastics leech estrogen mimicking materials into the food chain. All living creatures now have bits inside us, and there have been large hormonal effects such as early puberty, increase in intersex births, declining male fertility, and so on. It's hard to say exactly which types of plastics do what, so maybe some are benign, but it's a large uncontrolled experiment at present. For example this shows how plastics shed fibres that end up in sea creatures: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/nov/15/plastics-found-in-stomachs-of-deepest-sea-creatures https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/nov/15/plastics... Some info on plastic estrogen-mimicking leaching: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3222987/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3222987/ Bisphenol A is only one type. Plastics likely have other hormonal effects from other components. Increased intersex births from endocrine disrupting chemicals: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5017538/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5017538/ Testicular cancer rates are rising in the developed world, and it's linked to endocrine disruption in the womb. Waste is the focus, but I think it's misplaced. Our materials are everywhere in the environment. Even synthetic clothing sheds fibers everytime it's washed, and the same for microfiber clothes. (Note of course that plastics are not the only source of endocrine disruption)
- fiblye 7y ago
  Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but could this be part of the reason for the (maybe just perceived) increase in trans people? I don’t have solid stats, but based off of what I see outside and on the internet, the number of openly trans people has grown tremendously this past decade, and MTF seem to outnumber FTM by a huge margin.
  - mschuster91 7y ago
    Largest reason is that trans, homosexual and bisexual people don't have to fear being killed or shunned by their families or in school any more. (Yes, in reality they do have to fear discrimination, but soxiety as a large has gotten way, way more open in the last 30 years!) Trans people were known in ancient Greece ffs, it's mostly thanks to the Catholic church and its "morals" that we ended up with imprisoning people for being gay or trans.
    - fiblye 7y ago
      Do you have citations for that being the reason? And what about societies outside of Catholic influence? Seems odd to blame them. And I never said they didn’t exist, so I’m not sure why you seem to have an aggressive tone. I know they’ve always existed. But with research showing intersex births becoming more common than ever, I have to wonder if there’s a connection to rates of being trans as well.
      - Doubl 7y ago
        The Catholic Church policy on condoms was blamed for the high rates of HIV in Africa and yet if you looked at the stats, the countries where protestantism was more predominant than Catholicism had higher rates and vice versa. Not claiming there was any causation there but the original allegation had no basis. If someone is going to flout church teaching on sex outside marriage they are hardly going to be worried about flouting it by using a condom.
    - pandapower2 7y ago
kd5bjo 7y ago
Paper and other plant-based products are one major method of getting carbon in a useful form from the air instead of underground. Generally, the trees that are chopped down to make paper were specially planted for the purpose in managed forests, and a larger market for paper goods will lead to more land use for such forests.
xorfish 7y ago
Recycle what you can and burn the rest. That is the most ecological solution if it is done by modern standards. It works and is done in most of Europe. Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, Japan, Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Austria all put less than 5% of their trash directly into landfills. Functioning trash handling is far more effective at reducing the ecological impact of plastic than any attempt to reduce plastic consumption. Personaly I think Switzerland is the best model on how to handle trash properly. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/fact-check_is-switzerland-the-world-champion-of-recycling/42382610 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/fact-check_is-switzerland-the-w...
- jessaustin 7y ago
  When we run out of land for landfills, incineration will be the next best option. It's just... we have a lot of land for landfills.

by sh-run 7y ago

Scoundreller 7y ago

More like plastics are usually made from polyethylene. Thanks to fracking, the ethane that goes into making it is dirt cheap in N. America. More and more polyethylene plants are being set up all the time.

graeme 7y ago

Plastics leech estrogen mimicking materials into the food chain. All living creatures now have bits inside us, and there have been large hormonal effects such as early puberty, increase in intersex births, declining male fertility, and so on. It's hard to say exactly which types of plastics do what, so maybe some are benign, but it's a large uncontrolled experiment at present. For example this shows how plastics shed fibres that end up in sea creatures: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/nov/15/plastics-found-in-stomachs-of-deepest-sea-creatures https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/nov/15/plastics... Some info on plastic estrogen-mimicking leaching: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3222987/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3222987/ Bisphenol A is only one type. Plastics likely have other hormonal effects from other components. Increased intersex births from endocrine disrupting chemicals: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5017538/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5017538/ Testicular cancer rates are rising in the developed world, and it's linked to endocrine disruption in the womb. Waste is the focus, but I think it's misplaced. Our materials are everywhere in the environment. Even synthetic clothing sheds fibers everytime it's washed, and the same for microfiber clothes. (Note of course that plastics are not the only source of endocrine disruption)

fiblye 7y ago
Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but could this be part of the reason for the (maybe just perceived) increase in trans people? I don’t have solid stats, but based off of what I see outside and on the internet, the number of openly trans people has grown tremendously this past decade, and MTF seem to outnumber FTM by a huge margin.
- mschuster91 7y ago
  Largest reason is that trans, homosexual and bisexual people don't have to fear being killed or shunned by their families or in school any more. (Yes, in reality they do have to fear discrimination, but soxiety as a large has gotten way, way more open in the last 30 years!) Trans people were known in ancient Greece ffs, it's mostly thanks to the Catholic church and its "morals" that we ended up with imprisoning people for being gay or trans.
  - fiblye 7y ago
    Do you have citations for that being the reason? And what about societies outside of Catholic influence? Seems odd to blame them. And I never said they didn’t exist, so I’m not sure why you seem to have an aggressive tone. I know they’ve always existed. But with research showing intersex births becoming more common than ever, I have to wonder if there’s a connection to rates of being trans as well.
    - Doubl 7y ago
      The Catholic Church policy on condoms was blamed for the high rates of HIV in Africa and yet if you looked at the stats, the countries where protestantism was more predominant than Catholicism had higher rates and vice versa. Not claiming there was any causation there but the original allegation had no basis. If someone is going to flout church teaching on sex outside marriage they are hardly going to be worried about flouting it by using a condom.
  - pandapower2 7y ago

kd5bjo 7y ago

Paper and other plant-based products are one major method of getting carbon in a useful form from the air instead of underground. Generally, the trees that are chopped down to make paper were specially planted for the purpose in managed forests, and a larger market for paper goods will lead to more land use for such forests.

xorfish 7y ago

Recycle what you can and burn the rest. That is the most ecological solution if it is done by modern standards. It works and is done in most of Europe. Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, Japan, Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Austria all put less than 5% of their trash directly into landfills. Functioning trash handling is far more effective at reducing the ecological impact of plastic than any attempt to reduce plastic consumption. Personaly I think Switzerland is the best model on how to handle trash properly. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/fact-check_is-switzerland-the-world-champion-of-recycling/42382610 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/fact-check_is-switzerland-the-w...

jessaustin 7y ago
When we run out of land for landfills, incineration will be the next best option. It's just... we have a lot of land for landfills.