19 ms·

The Banana Trick and Other Acts of Self-Checkout Thievery (2018)

81 points by CraneWorm 7y ago

2bitencryption 7y ago
I did once abuse the self-checkout myself, but I felt justified: The tag on the shelf said the crackers were buy-one-get-one-free. But when I rang them both up, it charged for both. Instead of calling an attendant, I just voided one of them but walked out with it. I'm basically a criminal mastermind.
- zintrilisqo 7y ago
  It's not worth it. Imagine if they posted video of you on their FB. Many wouldn't believe your justification. You should have just voided both of them and left them there.
  - dgzl 7y ago
    > Imagine if they posted video of you on their FB For crackers? I think people would be more upset with the store than the shopper.
    - MisterTea 7y ago
      The people will likely rally around the poor shopper being oppressed by the soulless corporate entity.
      - dgzl 7y ago
        Imagine if stores posted all their surveillance videos online. Creepy!
      - coldtea 7y ago
        And they would be right...
        dgzl 7y ago
        In the store's perspective, the case was theft. They couldn't tell the machine wasn't taking the proper discount, and they likely wouldn't do the research to uncover the truth.
  - jjeaff 7y ago
    I've never had a store refuse to honor the posted price when it rang up incorrectly. I doubt they would bat an eye when you explained and showed them their signage. Additionally, most states impose strict penalties for products that are incorrectly advertised. Whether it is intentional or not.
- firebones 7y ago
  In most of the groceries stores around me, discount logic is applied after the the total is completed. So voiding after you completed scanning and were ready to pay would have been legit, but maybe not so much if you didn't wait until payment time.
- amaccuish 7y ago
  Sorry, what does "rang them up" mean here? :)
  - jhbadger 7y ago
    It's an expression in English to refer to an item being charged to a customer. It is referring to old-fashioned cash registers that used to ring a bell after the cashier entered the price.
    - amaccuish 7y ago
      Ahh right. I'm actually British but never heard that before, thought it was refering to making a phone call. Those cash registers are before my time :)
    - projektfu 7y ago
      I believe the bell is actually for the cash drawer opening so the manager can hear it.
- empath75 7y ago
  You can’t void items without assistance at any checkout I’ve seen
thrax 7y ago
Funny timing, because a GOP candidate looking to unseat Ilhan Omar, was just busted for serial shoplifting at a Target.
dang 7y ago
Discussed at the time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16292254 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16292254
nkozyra 7y ago
Harder to do with human cashiers, I imagine this is a wholly budgeted phenomenon
isoprophlex 7y ago
I'm not sure if the money my supermarket saves by getting rid of humans (and the humans' incomes) translates to cheaper groceries for me. I'd believe it if there were somehow a fine for using a human checkout. But there isn't. So every once in a while four bell pepper somehow scan as three. Accidents happen, full plausible deniability.
- nkozyra 7y ago
  > I'd believe it if there were somehow a fine for using a human checkout. But there isn't. Because there are easier, less abrasive ways of disincentivizing this behavior, namely by making fewer human checkouts available.
  - jachee 7y ago
    There's a 24-hour Kroger near where I used to live that would routinely shut down the last human cashier around 10PM, which was about an hour too early. This resulted in a nightly backup at the two self-check lines they'd leave open, sometimes taking 20+ minutes to check out. Even as someone who prefers to self-checkout: It was a mess.
    - nkozyra 7y ago
      This is by design. Target often runs large metro stores with TWO cashiers. I once went into the Target on 14th St in Manhattan and saw just a single human. Most customers are already conditioned to go through the self checkout.
      - namibj 7y ago
        How are 20+ min waiting to do it yourself desirable for the store? Especially if done on a routine?
        nkozyra 7y ago
        If people still buy the goods then you're willing to absorb the inconvenience.
hirundo 7y ago
I wanted to checkout at a Home Depot but there were no employees to be seen and only self-checkout lanes open. I had some items I wanted help with and in frustration asked the customer next to me, "does anybody work here?" He said "I guess we do." I won't be the guy who causes shrinkage but it seems reasonable for the seller to pay something for the buyers' labor as cashier.
- amayne 7y ago
  I believe it's called lower prices – at least in theory. (My apologies for coming across as pedantic.) Physical stores use them to remain competitive in pricing. The lower price is your incentive for doing it yourself (again in theory.)
  - LocalH 7y ago
    I'm not aware of any major stores that provide a self-checkout discount.
    - leetcrew 7y ago
      I've never been to a store that gives a discount for self-checkout, but it probably does lower the overall cost of shopping there. there's very little that Walmart can do to differentiate itself from Target, so I would at least expect these kinds of businesses to be forced to pass a lot of the labor savings on to their customers. if you really hate ringing up your own groceries, there are plenty of higher end grocery stores that have more cashiers (at least in my area). if you want better service, you might need to open up your wallet.
      - nickpsecurity 7y ago
        It doesn't. It just increases their profit. What they charge is determined by different people in those organizations. Most vendors have cashiers in Mid-South. Walmart and Kroger are the ones adding lots of self-checkouts with Walmart being about charging less with low service and Kroger charging more with a bit more service. Dollar General and Aldi are cheapest with no self-checkout, but less cashiers. So, there's your data points. Meanwhile, a lot of companies are getting rid of their self-checkouts since there's tons of theft. They've probably lost more at some places than they saved on laid-off cashiers.
jedberg 7y ago
I must be a rube, because I've never stolen from one of those things. When it makes a mistake I call the attendant to correct it. Mainly because I support the idea of automation and want it to work well. Maybe it's just the reliability engineer in me that wants to call out the bugs and have them fixed. Or maybe it's the former security engineer in me who got paid to find the flaws in these systems and my ethics demand I don't exploit them for personal gain. Honestly though I hope they don't go away just because everyone abuses them. I really like the self checkout machines and being in control of how long the transaction takes instead of up to the whims of which cashier I've chosen (although if the markets would just do a little research on queuing theory and make us all like up in one single line for the human cashiers, that wouldn't be a problem).
- kaybe 7y ago
  The best interaction I had with one of these machines went like this. It said 'Press button to start'. I did. It stated 'now giving back change' and proceeded to dispense 17,xx€. I was then able to scan my items (2 jars of jam) and pay for them (~4€) (and got my change back too). Fantastic interaction, really. I gave the wrong change back to the cashier in the other lane though. I'm not sure how often that happens, I could have taken the money and just left, easy.
- dilap 7y ago
  Not a rube, just honest. I'm really surprised and disappointed this is common.
  - whenchamenia 7y ago
    I think there is a growning distinction between being honest in face to face dealings, and being honest with a machine built by people for the expressed sole purpose of profit.
- koala_man 7y ago
  I hope society will one day reach a level of honesty and trust where we can just leave stores unlocked and unattended at night.
joshmn 7y ago
Reminds me of the drama surrounding Genius co-founder Mahbod Moghadam after he penned "How To Steal From Whole Foods". https://thoughtcatalog.com/mahbod-moghadam/2014/11/how-to-steal-from-whole-foods/ https://thoughtcatalog.com/mahbod-moghadam/2014/11/how-to-st...
- gjs278 7y ago
  do you have the original copy?
  - kevingrahl 7y ago
    Internet Archive to the rescue: https://web.archive.org/web/20141117023310/https://thoughtcatalog.com/mahbod-moghadam/2014/11/how-to-steal-from-whole-foods/ https://web.archive.org/web/20141117023310/https://thoughtca...
- jl2718 7y ago
  Most criminals think they are geniuses because they figured out how to outsmart the system. They are not. This is a trait highly correlated with low IQ. Real brilliant people don’t constantly seek the ego boost of exploitation.
alkonaut 7y ago
In all stores I know, there are randomized inspection of say every 30 customers. Missed something tiny and you might be reprimanded and you’ll get tighter inspections for many months to come (until you had several inspections without issue). If you are found to have made some kind of fraud that is obviously a mistake then you’ll be stripped of the “privilege” of self-checkout as well as probably reported to police and likely other stores. To ensure self checkout is a “privilege” stores must ensure there are rebates available only to self checkout customers, and that lines at the traditional checkout are long enough to make self checkout significantly faster.
- jedberg 7y ago
  Do you happen to live in Europe? I've only ever seen the inspections in Europe.
  - alkonaut 7y ago
    Yes. The article mentions various “fraud detection” schemes in place (weight etc) but I don’t get why random checks aren’t just used instead, or in addition?
    - dwd 7y ago
      I once left cash on a machine and sat with store security while they went back through the video to see what happened to it. (They were happy to give me the money after seeing someone quickly pocket it before the attendant noticed) If they wanted to cross-check, the videos see everything - but obviously it's not cost effective.
    - DanBC 7y ago
      In England you can't search people just because you want to.
      - alkonaut 7y ago
        It’s not a search of a person’s things after leaving the checkout. It’s a manual audit taking place with a random probability. You aren’t being “searched” because the transaction isn’t completed yet. In the traditional checkout people are asksed to put their not yet purchased items on a conveyor too. I’m sure you agree that’s not “searching” them. Note: in most places such as grocery stores, customers scan items while picking them using a handheld scanner while putting things in their cart. Then you just pay for the total at the checkout, at which point the register could randomly decide to give you an audit. If you don’t agree to ever being subjected to that, your only choice is to use traditional checkout. In other places (perhaps most notably IKEA) items are self-scanned at checkout time.
YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago
>> “There is NO MORAL ISSUE with stealing from a store that forces you to use self checkout, period. THEY ARE CHARGING YOU TO WORK AT THEIR STORE.” I find the twisted reasoning in this comment shocking and I don't really know what to say. It is a kind of twisted reasoning that I've only seen in people who were high on strong narcotics and were carried away by waves of wishful thinking and delusions, or, again, extreme persecution complex. Yes- it is possible to make this connection: that because you are scanning your own shopping you are being charged to work at the store. However, you are not being charged to scan your items. You are charged to buy the items you scan. There is no extra charge for using the self-checkout (not anywhere I know of anyway). Indeed, the store may be making an extra profit by not having to pay as many cashiers. But, stores are always finding ways to make extra profit, for example by offering you a discount on certain items, on certain days, etc. Are you more morally justified than usual to shoplift because a store has a discount on Swiss cheese this week? They are making you pick up the swiss cheese and take it to the till (automated or not). Are they charging you to move items around the store? Like I say- this makes no sense. It is quintessential procrustean logic: stretching and reducing the meaning of words until they fit your preconceived reasoning. P.S. I spent so much time on this crap instead of dismissing it shallowly because dang gets sad when people don't show intellectual cuiriosity.
- mindslight 7y ago
  Alternatively, it's revealing a deeper truth that had been obscured by a long chain of seemingly logical justifications. Corporations tend to abuse abstractions until they break, and self-checkout is basically at that breaking point. Comedy is especially good at deflating bullshit like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxINJzqzn4w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxINJzqzn4w I for one could never stand the things for their slow and obtuse programming. I cannot get how people just accept slowly following a machine in lockstep, rather than the machine being designed to accommodate a natural human workflow. Back when the things were new, they would give out freebies by deciding to flip out and void the last few items, without the conveyor actually bringing them all back. I certainly wasn't going to go out of my way to correct its error, setting myself back even further. At this point I just skip the frustrating things out of personal policy, and outright avoid stores that punish customers for doing so (Walmart being the worst offender). If I can't stand an extra 5 minutes in line for the professional cashier, I should order online or simply stock up and visit less.
MarkSweep 7y ago
> Shopping can be quite boring because it’s such a routine, and this is a way to make the routine more interesting. Maybe there is an opportunity here to somehow make shopping or self-checkout more thrilling and thus reduce shoplifting. Maybe add some features from a slot machine and give random discount or free items. Gamify the checkout experience so people want to buy more.
- elliekelly 7y ago
  That's a really good idea. A carrot instead of a stick. I've heard of a few "sticks" in the last few months that don't seem nearly as fun/customer friendly as yours: facial recognition to identify/charge thieves after the fact and AI that analyzes body language and identifies shoplifters through their (supposedly) suspicious behavior in-store. I'd also be curious whether the "honesty eyes" concept[1] would put a meaningful dent in self-checkout shrinkage. [1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/5120662.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/5120662.stm
- _nhynes 7y ago
  My guess is that expected payout would be too low to keep opportunistic shoplifters from doing their thing since most self-checkouters who aren't stealing would also get the discount. Otherwise this is a great idea.
  - H8crilA 7y ago
    Lotto disagrees. In fact super rare wins make them perceived as so much more valuable (and so much more an object of envy if it happens so that your friend wins at the self checkout). Precise measurements are needed, this would be a cool psychology project to work on in some big chain.
- faissaloo 7y ago
  This idea seems absurd to me, I already sick of companies getting in my way and annoying me with 'buy more stuff!' just let me do my thing and leave me alone.
- kalleboo 7y ago
itronitron 7y ago
If 850K is the amount of shrinkage for 21M of in-store sales then a store that delivers groceries can offset the cost of delivery due to the corresponding reduction in shrinkage.
- javadocmd 7y ago
  What they didn't report is the corresponding decrease in labor costs. If they save 1M in labor to lose 850K, they're still ahead.
nathanaldensr 7y ago
What really irritates me about shoplifting is that the honest among us subsidize the criminals. Inevitably, retailers and grocers raise prices due to increased theft, encouraging more theft, in a vicious spiral (I don't have proof of this; rather, it's an intuition). Also reminds me of drug use in sports.
- smallgovt 7y ago
  Well it doesn’t spiral out of control. It’ll reach an equilibrium where the grocer prices their goods to make an optimal profit given the rate of theft (which you’ve aptly pointed out increases with the price they choose).
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  Or the stores withdraw from that region. See: food deserts.
  - gruez 7y ago
    > See: food deserts. they seem to be mostly as a result of lack of demand, not lack of supply. https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2017/12/political-incorrect-paper-day-food-deserts.html https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2017/12/po...
    - dredmorbius 7y ago
      Multiple factors contribute. Paul Baran, inventor of packet-switched networks, added a footnote to a 1968 monograph noting that his parents' inner-city Philadelphia fire insurance had just been cancelled. The unavailability, or high cost, of insurance may prove fatal to both homeownership and businesses. https://www.rand.org/pubs/papers/P3780.html https://www.rand.org/pubs/papers/P3780.html (footnote, p. 7) Note too that Marginal Revolution, based at George Mason University, pushes an explicitly libertarian, market. fundamentalist, ideology. Cowan and Taborrok occasionally break type, but the exceptions prove the rule. I'd need to review the article in depth, but an immediate observation is that in a media-saturated, advertising-filled world, demand is anything but exogenous.
coretx 7y ago
Many such systems are easily exploitable by means of simply bruteforcing them by EAN code.
superkuh 7y ago
I just chose not to use self-checkouts. If a store only has them I don't go there. It's easy and sends a clearer (and more clearly ethical) message.
- michaelmrose 7y ago
  Why don't you present your cart to the cashier and ask them to check you out. The process of paying is identical after all.
  - superkuh 7y ago
    It's not quite the same if you pay for groceries with your own money (cash) instead of having some giant corp. promise to pay the grocer in a couple days (credit card). Plus I wouldn't want to support any store that didn't have at least a couple real check-out lanes.
millstone 7y ago
What level of shoplifting do the Amazon Go stores encounter? A lot less I would guess. Napster was "overcut" by the iTunes Music Store, and then streaming finished off music piracy. You really can combat stealing through better purchasing experiences.
- nfoz 7y ago
  Napster was shutdown for copyright infringement in 2001. The iTunes Music Store opened in 2003. The convenient-online-store model only succeeded because of the success of the legal attacks against file-sharing.
jl2718 7y ago
This is depressing. When I lose faith in humanity, I look to self-checkout as proof that we are all good. Also, as a side note, I’ve come to believe that moral maturation is a far longer process than physical, pedagogical, or even professional.
SubiculumCode 7y ago
Retail is a major source of employment in America for those without technical skills. The increase in automation at the checkstand are forcing people out of one of the few jobs they can get. I like automation, but we need to do something for the middle aged mom/dad who is not likely to ever be trained to be a coder or technician. It is time for a universal basic income. Or they could just thieve from the robots to make ends meet.
WalterBright 7y ago
I like the self-checkout because it enables me to get rid of a fistful of change without annoying the cashier.
deleted 7y ago
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rumcajz 7y ago
> A robot cashier, though, changes the equation: It “gives the false impression of anonymity,” OTOH, a human cashier gives the false impression of personhood to a corporation.
provolone 7y ago
To avoid false accusations of theft, avoid self-checkout. YMMV. I understand that people are abusing the system. I can accept that the store has an interest in loss prevention. But I'll never feel comfortable with being checked up on. As a stubborn person, I'll have to start shopping somewhere else when this happens. This means a less convenient location. Where's the time savings in that? Many here bring their politically charged economic analysis into it. For me I've always wanted to just get home without any undue awkward/impolite scenarios. Nor do I want to navigate the menu system for produce. Waiting in a longer line is relatively cheap for the peace of mind gained. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17785132 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17785132
- michaelmrose 7y ago
  Are you also one of those who get annoyed when people look in containers you purchase or count the goods you present for purchase? Paying attention is the only way to insure accurate transactions.
  - provolone 7y ago
    no
throwaway07Ju19 7y ago
“There is NO MORAL ISSUE with stealing from a store that forces you to use self checkout, period. THEY ARE CHARGING YOU TO WORK AT THEIR STORE.” The above sentiment is the basis of one of my favorite comedy bits by Bill Burr: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxINJzqzn4w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxINJzqzn4w
- throwawaysixthg 7y ago
  I've never told anyone this, but Bill's next bit in that clip about customer service, I actually did that last year. I had this big mess with my whole flight itinerary, and I was stuck at an airport for like 30 hours with nothing to do. I got the airline's customer service on the phone. They were refusing to compensate me, I was livid but I just did exactly what Bill said: Don't curse and they can't hang up. I talked really, really slowly. The intercoms in the airport would sound off periodically and I'd just wait until they stopped then ask the rep to repeat himself. So he'd repeat a point that he already made like 15 times. And I'd just keep feigning that I misunderstood the point he was trying to make. I just kept talking in an infinite circle about common law, and the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing, and running through all these increasingly ridiculous hypothetical scenarios of overbooking and flight delays and which party should be liable in those scenarios and for what reason, and on and on... Bill is right about them not being allowed to hang up. I had him on the phone for over an hour. He kept it together for a while, but toward the end I could tell that he was starting to crack. Then he made some unprompted comment about how he didn't care because he was getting paid to deal with me, and shortly after that, the line just abruptly cut off mid-sentence. I got a callback the next morning offering me a $200 airline certificate, a hotel voucher, and a meal voucher. True story. At the time I was just really angry about my travel getting screwed up, and especially about not having a place to sleep, and being stuck in an airport terminal. And all that anger just channeled into this game of calmly wasting that guy's time. But in hindsight, what I did was a very unjustified and shitty thing to do, and I was rewarded handsomely for it. And that guy may have been reprimanded through no fault of his own. I don't feel great about it and won't be doing it again.
Animats 7y ago
The machine learning solution: * LaneHawk - identifies items in bottom of car [1] * Everseen - watches object move through a checkout [2] and reports if they are not scanned. In use at Walmart and "5 of the 10 top retailers" now. * StopLift - also watches checkouts. Recently purchased by NCR. This problem is on its way to being solved. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYd7CcInZ28 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYd7CcInZ28 [2] https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/20/18693324/walmart-ai-camera-computer-vision-tracking-theft https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/20/18693324/walmart-ai-camer... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4VR2z2n5Ec https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4VR2z2n5Ec
- nzjrs 7y ago
  False positives and the human reaction to being accused of theft will kill these. Honestly a sticker that says "automated theft detection system in operation" will be more effective
  - caf 7y ago
    A friendly animated cartoony robot face on the screen would probably be pretty effective.
  - sippeangelo 7y ago
    Works about as well as you'd expect: http://vm.tiktok.com/RWpGfb/ http://vm.tiktok.com/RWpGfb/
deleted 7y ago
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TeeWEE 7y ago
At my supermarket they sample people going through self-checkout. So people dont shoplift, the chance of beign caught is high.
gsliepen 7y ago
The banana trick works almost equally well when a cashier is checking your product. Mainly because nowadays, they just mindlessly scan all the products on the belt, and do little actual checking. This clip describing shopping at the Dutch Albert Heijn supermarkets isn't far from the truth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWB_ev0dK8o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWB_ev0dK8o
SlayAe 7y ago
> the ease of theft is likely inspiring people who might not otherwise steal to do so it means that the only reason that these people don't steal, is that they think they won't cet away with it.

81 points by CraneWorm 7y ago

I did once abuse the self-checkout myself, but I felt justified: The tag on the shelf said the crackers were buy-one-get-one-free. But when I rang them both up, it charged for both. Instead of calling an attendant, I just voided one of them but walked out with it. I'm basically a criminal mastermind.

zintrilisqo 7y ago
It's not worth it. Imagine if they posted video of you on their FB. Many wouldn't believe your justification. You should have just voided both of them and left them there.
- dgzl 7y ago
  > Imagine if they posted video of you on their FB For crackers? I think people would be more upset with the store than the shopper.
  - MisterTea 7y ago
    The people will likely rally around the poor shopper being oppressed by the soulless corporate entity.
    - dgzl 7y ago
      Imagine if stores posted all their surveillance videos online. Creepy!
    - coldtea 7y ago
      And they would be right...
      - dgzl 7y ago
        In the store's perspective, the case was theft. They couldn't tell the machine wasn't taking the proper discount, and they likely wouldn't do the research to uncover the truth.
- jjeaff 7y ago
  I've never had a store refuse to honor the posted price when it rang up incorrectly. I doubt they would bat an eye when you explained and showed them their signage. Additionally, most states impose strict penalties for products that are incorrectly advertised. Whether it is intentional or not.
firebones 7y ago
In most of the groceries stores around me, discount logic is applied after the the total is completed. So voiding after you completed scanning and were ready to pay would have been legit, but maybe not so much if you didn't wait until payment time.
amaccuish 7y ago
Sorry, what does "rang them up" mean here? :)
- jhbadger 7y ago
  It's an expression in English to refer to an item being charged to a customer. It is referring to old-fashioned cash registers that used to ring a bell after the cashier entered the price.
  - amaccuish 7y ago
    Ahh right. I'm actually British but never heard that before, thought it was refering to making a phone call. Those cash registers are before my time :)
  - projektfu 7y ago
    I believe the bell is actually for the cash drawer opening so the manager can hear it.
empath75 7y ago
You can’t void items without assistance at any checkout I’ve seen

thrax 7y ago

Funny timing, because a GOP candidate looking to unseat Ilhan Omar, was just busted for serial shoplifting at a Target.

dang 7y ago

Discussed at the time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16292254 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16292254

nkozyra 7y ago

Harder to do with human cashiers, I imagine this is a wholly budgeted phenomenon

isoprophlex 7y ago

I'm not sure if the money my supermarket saves by getting rid of humans (and the humans' incomes) translates to cheaper groceries for me. I'd believe it if there were somehow a fine for using a human checkout. But there isn't. So every once in a while four bell pepper somehow scan as three. Accidents happen, full plausible deniability.

nkozyra 7y ago
> I'd believe it if there were somehow a fine for using a human checkout. But there isn't. Because there are easier, less abrasive ways of disincentivizing this behavior, namely by making fewer human checkouts available.
- jachee 7y ago
  There's a 24-hour Kroger near where I used to live that would routinely shut down the last human cashier around 10PM, which was about an hour too early. This resulted in a nightly backup at the two self-check lines they'd leave open, sometimes taking 20+ minutes to check out. Even as someone who prefers to self-checkout: It was a mess.
  - nkozyra 7y ago
    This is by design. Target often runs large metro stores with TWO cashiers. I once went into the Target on 14th St in Manhattan and saw just a single human. Most customers are already conditioned to go through the self checkout.
    - namibj 7y ago
      How are 20+ min waiting to do it yourself desirable for the store? Especially if done on a routine?
      - nkozyra 7y ago
        If people still buy the goods then you're willing to absorb the inconvenience.

hirundo 7y ago

I wanted to checkout at a Home Depot but there were no employees to be seen and only self-checkout lanes open. I had some items I wanted help with and in frustration asked the customer next to me, "does anybody work here?" He said "I guess we do." I won't be the guy who causes shrinkage but it seems reasonable for the seller to pay something for the buyers' labor as cashier.

amayne 7y ago
I believe it's called lower prices – at least in theory. (My apologies for coming across as pedantic.) Physical stores use them to remain competitive in pricing. The lower price is your incentive for doing it yourself (again in theory.)
- LocalH 7y ago
  I'm not aware of any major stores that provide a self-checkout discount.
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    I've never been to a store that gives a discount for self-checkout, but it probably does lower the overall cost of shopping there. there's very little that Walmart can do to differentiate itself from Target, so I would at least expect these kinds of businesses to be forced to pass a lot of the labor savings on to their customers. if you really hate ringing up your own groceries, there are plenty of higher end grocery stores that have more cashiers (at least in my area). if you want better service, you might need to open up your wallet.
    - nickpsecurity 7y ago
      It doesn't. It just increases their profit. What they charge is determined by different people in those organizations. Most vendors have cashiers in Mid-South. Walmart and Kroger are the ones adding lots of self-checkouts with Walmart being about charging less with low service and Kroger charging more with a bit more service. Dollar General and Aldi are cheapest with no self-checkout, but less cashiers. So, there's your data points. Meanwhile, a lot of companies are getting rid of their self-checkouts since there's tons of theft. They've probably lost more at some places than they saved on laid-off cashiers.

jedberg 7y ago

I must be a rube, because I've never stolen from one of those things. When it makes a mistake I call the attendant to correct it. Mainly because I support the idea of automation and want it to work well. Maybe it's just the reliability engineer in me that wants to call out the bugs and have them fixed. Or maybe it's the former security engineer in me who got paid to find the flaws in these systems and my ethics demand I don't exploit them for personal gain. Honestly though I hope they don't go away just because everyone abuses them. I really like the self checkout machines and being in control of how long the transaction takes instead of up to the whims of which cashier I've chosen (although if the markets would just do a little research on queuing theory and make us all like up in one single line for the human cashiers, that wouldn't be a problem).

kaybe 7y ago
The best interaction I had with one of these machines went like this. It said 'Press button to start'. I did. It stated 'now giving back change' and proceeded to dispense 17,xx€. I was then able to scan my items (2 jars of jam) and pay for them (~4€) (and got my change back too). Fantastic interaction, really. I gave the wrong change back to the cashier in the other lane though. I'm not sure how often that happens, I could have taken the money and just left, easy.
dilap 7y ago
Not a rube, just honest. I'm really surprised and disappointed this is common.
- whenchamenia 7y ago
  I think there is a growning distinction between being honest in face to face dealings, and being honest with a machine built by people for the expressed sole purpose of profit.
koala_man 7y ago
I hope society will one day reach a level of honesty and trust where we can just leave stores unlocked and unattended at night.

joshmn 7y ago

Reminds me of the drama surrounding Genius co-founder Mahbod Moghadam after he penned "How To Steal From Whole Foods". https://thoughtcatalog.com/mahbod-moghadam/2014/11/how-to-steal-from-whole-foods/ https://thoughtcatalog.com/mahbod-moghadam/2014/11/how-to-st...

gjs278 7y ago
do you have the original copy?
- kevingrahl 7y ago
  Internet Archive to the rescue: https://web.archive.org/web/20141117023310/https://thoughtcatalog.com/mahbod-moghadam/2014/11/how-to-steal-from-whole-foods/ https://web.archive.org/web/20141117023310/https://thoughtca...
jl2718 7y ago
Most criminals think they are geniuses because they figured out how to outsmart the system. They are not. This is a trait highly correlated with low IQ. Real brilliant people don’t constantly seek the ego boost of exploitation.

alkonaut 7y ago

In all stores I know, there are randomized inspection of say every 30 customers. Missed something tiny and you might be reprimanded and you’ll get tighter inspections for many months to come (until you had several inspections without issue). If you are found to have made some kind of fraud that is obviously a mistake then you’ll be stripped of the “privilege” of self-checkout as well as probably reported to police and likely other stores. To ensure self checkout is a “privilege” stores must ensure there are rebates available only to self checkout customers, and that lines at the traditional checkout are long enough to make self checkout significantly faster.

jedberg 7y ago
Do you happen to live in Europe? I've only ever seen the inspections in Europe.
- alkonaut 7y ago
  Yes. The article mentions various “fraud detection” schemes in place (weight etc) but I don’t get why random checks aren’t just used instead, or in addition?
  - dwd 7y ago
    I once left cash on a machine and sat with store security while they went back through the video to see what happened to it. (They were happy to give me the money after seeing someone quickly pocket it before the attendant noticed) If they wanted to cross-check, the videos see everything - but obviously it's not cost effective.
  - DanBC 7y ago
    In England you can't search people just because you want to.
    - alkonaut 7y ago
      It’s not a search of a person’s things after leaving the checkout. It’s a manual audit taking place with a random probability. You aren’t being “searched” because the transaction isn’t completed yet. In the traditional checkout people are asksed to put their not yet purchased items on a conveyor too. I’m sure you agree that’s not “searching” them. Note: in most places such as grocery stores, customers scan items while picking them using a handheld scanner while putting things in their cart. Then you just pay for the total at the checkout, at which point the register could randomly decide to give you an audit. If you don’t agree to ever being subjected to that, your only choice is to use traditional checkout. In other places (perhaps most notably IKEA) items are self-scanned at checkout time.

YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago

>> “There is NO MORAL ISSUE with stealing from a store that forces you to use self checkout, period. THEY ARE CHARGING YOU TO WORK AT THEIR STORE.” I find the twisted reasoning in this comment shocking and I don't really know what to say. It is a kind of twisted reasoning that I've only seen in people who were high on strong narcotics and were carried away by waves of wishful thinking and delusions, or, again, extreme persecution complex. Yes- it is possible to make this connection: that because you are scanning your own shopping you are being charged to work at the store. However, you are not being charged to scan your items. You are charged to buy the items you scan. There is no extra charge for using the self-checkout (not anywhere I know of anyway). Indeed, the store may be making an extra profit by not having to pay as many cashiers. But, stores are always finding ways to make extra profit, for example by offering you a discount on certain items, on certain days, etc. Are you more morally justified than usual to shoplift because a store has a discount on Swiss cheese this week? They are making you pick up the swiss cheese and take it to the till (automated or not). Are they charging you to move items around the store? Like I say- this makes no sense. It is quintessential procrustean logic: stretching and reducing the meaning of words until they fit your preconceived reasoning. P.S. I spent so much time on this crap instead of dismissing it shallowly because dang gets sad when people don't show intellectual cuiriosity.

mindslight 7y ago
Alternatively, it's revealing a deeper truth that had been obscured by a long chain of seemingly logical justifications. Corporations tend to abuse abstractions until they break, and self-checkout is basically at that breaking point. Comedy is especially good at deflating bullshit like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxINJzqzn4w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxINJzqzn4w I for one could never stand the things for their slow and obtuse programming. I cannot get how people just accept slowly following a machine in lockstep, rather than the machine being designed to accommodate a natural human workflow. Back when the things were new, they would give out freebies by deciding to flip out and void the last few items, without the conveyor actually bringing them all back. I certainly wasn't going to go out of my way to correct its error, setting myself back even further. At this point I just skip the frustrating things out of personal policy, and outright avoid stores that punish customers for doing so (Walmart being the worst offender). If I can't stand an extra 5 minutes in line for the professional cashier, I should order online or simply stock up and visit less.

MarkSweep 7y ago

> Shopping can be quite boring because it’s such a routine, and this is a way to make the routine more interesting. Maybe there is an opportunity here to somehow make shopping or self-checkout more thrilling and thus reduce shoplifting. Maybe add some features from a slot machine and give random discount or free items. Gamify the checkout experience so people want to buy more.

elliekelly 7y ago
That's a really good idea. A carrot instead of a stick. I've heard of a few "sticks" in the last few months that don't seem nearly as fun/customer friendly as yours: facial recognition to identify/charge thieves after the fact and AI that analyzes body language and identifies shoplifters through their (supposedly) suspicious behavior in-store. I'd also be curious whether the "honesty eyes" concept[1] would put a meaningful dent in self-checkout shrinkage. [1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/5120662.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/5120662.stm
_nhynes 7y ago
My guess is that expected payout would be too low to keep opportunistic shoplifters from doing their thing since most self-checkouters who aren't stealing would also get the discount. Otherwise this is a great idea.
- H8crilA 7y ago
  Lotto disagrees. In fact super rare wins make them perceived as so much more valuable (and so much more an object of envy if it happens so that your friend wins at the self checkout). Precise measurements are needed, this would be a cool psychology project to work on in some big chain.
faissaloo 7y ago
This idea seems absurd to me, I already sick of companies getting in my way and annoying me with 'buy more stuff!' just let me do my thing and leave me alone.
kalleboo 7y ago

itronitron 7y ago

If 850K is the amount of shrinkage for 21M of in-store sales then a store that delivers groceries can offset the cost of delivery due to the corresponding reduction in shrinkage.

javadocmd 7y ago
What they didn't report is the corresponding decrease in labor costs. If they save 1M in labor to lose 850K, they're still ahead.

nathanaldensr 7y ago

What really irritates me about shoplifting is that the honest among us subsidize the criminals. Inevitably, retailers and grocers raise prices due to increased theft, encouraging more theft, in a vicious spiral (I don't have proof of this; rather, it's an intuition). Also reminds me of drug use in sports.

smallgovt 7y ago
Well it doesn’t spiral out of control. It’ll reach an equilibrium where the grocer prices their goods to make an optimal profit given the rate of theft (which you’ve aptly pointed out increases with the price they choose).
dredmorbius 7y ago
Or the stores withdraw from that region. See: food deserts.
- gruez 7y ago
  > See: food deserts. they seem to be mostly as a result of lack of demand, not lack of supply. https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2017/12/political-incorrect-paper-day-food-deserts.html https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2017/12/po...
  - dredmorbius 7y ago
    Multiple factors contribute. Paul Baran, inventor of packet-switched networks, added a footnote to a 1968 monograph noting that his parents' inner-city Philadelphia fire insurance had just been cancelled. The unavailability, or high cost, of insurance may prove fatal to both homeownership and businesses. https://www.rand.org/pubs/papers/P3780.html https://www.rand.org/pubs/papers/P3780.html (footnote, p. 7) Note too that Marginal Revolution, based at George Mason University, pushes an explicitly libertarian, market. fundamentalist, ideology. Cowan and Taborrok occasionally break type, but the exceptions prove the rule. I'd need to review the article in depth, but an immediate observation is that in a media-saturated, advertising-filled world, demand is anything but exogenous.

coretx 7y ago

Many such systems are easily exploitable by means of simply bruteforcing them by EAN code.

superkuh 7y ago

I just chose not to use self-checkouts. If a store only has them I don't go there. It's easy and sends a clearer (and more clearly ethical) message.

michaelmrose 7y ago
Why don't you present your cart to the cashier and ask them to check you out. The process of paying is identical after all.
- superkuh 7y ago
  It's not quite the same if you pay for groceries with your own money (cash) instead of having some giant corp. promise to pay the grocer in a couple days (credit card). Plus I wouldn't want to support any store that didn't have at least a couple real check-out lanes.

millstone 7y ago

What level of shoplifting do the Amazon Go stores encounter? A lot less I would guess. Napster was "overcut" by the iTunes Music Store, and then streaming finished off music piracy. You really can combat stealing through better purchasing experiences.

nfoz 7y ago
Napster was shutdown for copyright infringement in 2001. The iTunes Music Store opened in 2003. The convenient-online-store model only succeeded because of the success of the legal attacks against file-sharing.

jl2718 7y ago

This is depressing. When I lose faith in humanity, I look to self-checkout as proof that we are all good. Also, as a side note, I’ve come to believe that moral maturation is a far longer process than physical, pedagogical, or even professional.

SubiculumCode 7y ago

Retail is a major source of employment in America for those without technical skills. The increase in automation at the checkstand are forcing people out of one of the few jobs they can get. I like automation, but we need to do something for the middle aged mom/dad who is not likely to ever be trained to be a coder or technician. It is time for a universal basic income. Or they could just thieve from the robots to make ends meet.

WalterBright 7y ago

I like the self-checkout because it enables me to get rid of a fistful of change without annoying the cashier.

deleted 7y ago

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rumcajz 7y ago

> A robot cashier, though, changes the equation: It “gives the false impression of anonymity,” OTOH, a human cashier gives the false impression of personhood to a corporation.

provolone 7y ago

To avoid false accusations of theft, avoid self-checkout. YMMV. I understand that people are abusing the system. I can accept that the store has an interest in loss prevention. But I'll never feel comfortable with being checked up on. As a stubborn person, I'll have to start shopping somewhere else when this happens. This means a less convenient location. Where's the time savings in that? Many here bring their politically charged economic analysis into it. For me I've always wanted to just get home without any undue awkward/impolite scenarios. Nor do I want to navigate the menu system for produce. Waiting in a longer line is relatively cheap for the peace of mind gained. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17785132 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17785132

michaelmrose 7y ago
Are you also one of those who get annoyed when people look in containers you purchase or count the goods you present for purchase? Paying attention is the only way to insure accurate transactions.
- provolone 7y ago
  no

throwaway07Ju19 7y ago

“There is NO MORAL ISSUE with stealing from a store that forces you to use self checkout, period. THEY ARE CHARGING YOU TO WORK AT THEIR STORE.” The above sentiment is the basis of one of my favorite comedy bits by Bill Burr: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxINJzqzn4w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxINJzqzn4w

throwawaysixthg 7y ago
I've never told anyone this, but Bill's next bit in that clip about customer service, I actually did that last year. I had this big mess with my whole flight itinerary, and I was stuck at an airport for like 30 hours with nothing to do. I got the airline's customer service on the phone. They were refusing to compensate me, I was livid but I just did exactly what Bill said: Don't curse and they can't hang up. I talked really, really slowly. The intercoms in the airport would sound off periodically and I'd just wait until they stopped then ask the rep to repeat himself. So he'd repeat a point that he already made like 15 times. And I'd just keep feigning that I misunderstood the point he was trying to make. I just kept talking in an infinite circle about common law, and the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing, and running through all these increasingly ridiculous hypothetical scenarios of overbooking and flight delays and which party should be liable in those scenarios and for what reason, and on and on... Bill is right about them not being allowed to hang up. I had him on the phone for over an hour. He kept it together for a while, but toward the end I could tell that he was starting to crack. Then he made some unprompted comment about how he didn't care because he was getting paid to deal with me, and shortly after that, the line just abruptly cut off mid-sentence. I got a callback the next morning offering me a $200 airline certificate, a hotel voucher, and a meal voucher. True story. At the time I was just really angry about my travel getting screwed up, and especially about not having a place to sleep, and being stuck in an airport terminal. And all that anger just channeled into this game of calmly wasting that guy's time. But in hindsight, what I did was a very unjustified and shitty thing to do, and I was rewarded handsomely for it. And that guy may have been reprimanded through no fault of his own. I don't feel great about it and won't be doing it again.

Animats 7y ago

The machine learning solution: * LaneHawk - identifies items in bottom of car [1] * Everseen - watches object move through a checkout [2] and reports if they are not scanned. In use at Walmart and "5 of the 10 top retailers" now. * StopLift - also watches checkouts. Recently purchased by NCR. This problem is on its way to being solved. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYd7CcInZ28 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYd7CcInZ28 [2] https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/20/18693324/walmart-ai-camera-computer-vision-tracking-theft https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/20/18693324/walmart-ai-camer... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4VR2z2n5Ec https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4VR2z2n5Ec

nzjrs 7y ago
False positives and the human reaction to being accused of theft will kill these. Honestly a sticker that says "automated theft detection system in operation" will be more effective
- caf 7y ago
  A friendly animated cartoony robot face on the screen would probably be pretty effective.
- sippeangelo 7y ago
  Works about as well as you'd expect: http://vm.tiktok.com/RWpGfb/ http://vm.tiktok.com/RWpGfb/

deleted 7y ago

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TeeWEE 7y ago

At my supermarket they sample people going through self-checkout. So people dont shoplift, the chance of beign caught is high.

gsliepen 7y ago

The banana trick works almost equally well when a cashier is checking your product. Mainly because nowadays, they just mindlessly scan all the products on the belt, and do little actual checking. This clip describing shopping at the Dutch Albert Heijn supermarkets isn't far from the truth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWB_ev0dK8o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWB_ev0dK8o

SlayAe 7y ago

> the ease of theft is likely inspiring people who might not otherwise steal to do so it means that the only reason that these people don't steal, is that they think they won't cet away with it.