11 ms·

The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

198 points by resalisbury 7y ago

mch82 7y ago
This isn’t true. Here are the instructions for incorporating in Delaware: https://corp.delaware.gov/howtoform/ https://corp.delaware.gov/howtoform/ A form an cover sheet are required. Plus, there is an obligation to submit an annual tax filing with lots of information. Here is the online application for a library card in Orange County, CA: https://web.ocpl.org/n/LibraryCardApplication/ https://web.ocpl.org/n/LibraryCardApplication/ I’m sure things vary state by state, but I’ll leave that for others to comment.
deleted 7y ago
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rpiguy 7y ago
As it should be.
- samschooler 7y ago
  Can you expand on this? I'm wondering what your reasoning is for requiring more or less info in either case.
  - rpiguy 7y ago
    Commerce is good and barriers to it should be minimal. Libraries are community property, paid for by tax payers. If you are going to borrow community property it is not a small thing. Almost anyone can walk into a library, pick up a book, and read it there. So there is still relatively good access to information. It is the borrowing part that creates the red tape. Even if it is simpler to create a company than get a library card, I guarantee as soon as that company tries to borrow money there will be plenty of paperwork :-)
jdoliner 7y ago
I don't see any particular reason why the identification process for a corporation should be more stringent than a library card. What is astonishing to me is that both are meaningfully more stringent than voting. In Minnesota for example, all one needs is another registered voter to vouch for them. https://www.sos.state.mn.us/elections-voting/register-to-vote/register-on-election-day/ https://www.sos.state.mn.us/elections-voting/register-to-vot...
- m463 7y ago
  I see voting as the sandbox/turf of politicians, with huge battles for all ground gain or lost.
- teachrdan 7y ago
  To the contrary: There were only four known cases of voter fraud in the 2016 elections[0]; more stringent voting requirements suppresses voting, especially by poor, black and/or Latinx voters.[1] It certainly seems the case that more damage has been done to society via corporations to which no human person can be associated than by voter fraud. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/12/01/0-000002-percent-of-all-the-ballots-cast-in-the-2016-election-were-fraudulent/?utm_term=.1bd9a0995e5d https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/12/01/0-... [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/02/15/do-voter-identification-laws-suppress-minority-voting-yes-we-did-the-research/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/02/1...
  - mberning 7y ago
    Are you saying poor people and brown people don’t know how to get a state ID? That’s pretty ridiculous and in the latter case racist.
  - foreach9885 7y ago
    Because we have unauthenticated voting in most blue states, we can not know how rampant voter fraud is. The only detectable voter fraud would be extreme corner cases, where they have a confession, or some other kind of evidence. Because as of right now, we are not allowed to verify who it is that is voting. Frankly, the federal government should not accept the outcomes of any elections from California, until they can hold a real election.
flattone 7y ago
from a "which has greater social liability" the title makes sense, in that the circumstances are counter intuitive.
ars 7y ago
It says "significant" amount of info for a library card. Yet every library I've ever registered at just needed a piece of mail with your name on it. That's it.
hak8or 7y ago
This varies extremely across various states and cities. If you live in new York city for example, to incoroerate an llc, you need to take out a section in a news paper to say you created an llc of name so and so, every day, for like a week, within a year (if I remember right) of your incorporation. Across three news papers too. If you go "OK fine, I will incorporate elsewhere, like Delaware", then NYC views you as a foreign investor and mandates you still do the news paper thing. Here is the kicker though, the news paper you are allowed to do this in vary based on county. You live in queens? That's a solid few thousand dollars. Brooklyn? Also a few thousand. Staten island? Less than $300. If you do not do this then the enforcement mechanism is that when you get sued, then a court can take back the corporate veil perk of your llc (llc is void so it turns into a sole proprietorship I think) and go after your personal assets if you loose a lawsuit.
- cddotdotslash 7y ago
  It's a really annoying process, agreed. If you're looking to setup an LLC in NYC, I've heard you can form it upstate and do the newspaper requirement there (where publication is cheaper) and then transfer back to the city.
- CPLX 7y ago
  > If you do not do this then the enforcement mechanism is that when you get sued, then a court can take back the corporate veil perk of your llc (llc is void so it turns into a sole proprietorship I think) and go after your personal assets if you loose a lawsuit. This is a common misconception. In real life there is no actual penalty for not placing the ads. In the event you’re challenged on it, the deficiency could be remedied by immediately placing the ad, but that literally will never happen. It is, in fact, a special interest giveaway to some local publications, but there’s no teeth to the law.
  - mieseratte 7y ago
    > It is, in fact, a special interest giveaway to some local publications, but there’s no teeth to the law. So you have to hope no one wants to come after you? What would happen if this were actually in court? Overturned for lack of enforcement?
stonogo 7y ago
This comparison is stupid. Corporate registration is explicitly public information. Librarians are notorious for the fervency with which they protect the personal information of library patrons.
- the_pwner224 7y ago
  If information is collected then it can be stolen. Even if it is not permanently (or even temporarily) stored.
  - stonogo 7y ago
    Irrelevant, but even if I humor you: The PATRIOT act does not require libraries collect any more personal information than the government already has. The comparison is utterly meaningless.
reaperducer 7y ago
I don't see the problem with this. With a library card, a person can act irresponsibly with public property. With a corporation, a person can act irresponsibly with private property.
- BonesJustice 7y ago
  If the scope of potential damage were limited to the assets owned by said corporation, perhaps. In reality, a corporation so isolated would have no reason to exist.
  - tptacek 7y ago
    In reality, a corporation with no documentation or operating history will have a hard time getting access to other people's assets. The requirements to actually operate a corporation are a lot more stringent than the requirements to create one on paper.
Kaveren 7y ago
Creating companies should be as frictionless as possible. You shouldn't need to provide much information at all, and it should be extremely cheap. Some states do this pretty well, others not so much. I'd rather a library card take almost no information as well, but you could run into issues with stealing, so it makes sense that it would take more.
bdcravens 7y ago
A library is loaning you property, usually collateral-free. A corporation is just a placeholder essentially for the activities it will perform, each of which will likely have far more stringent requirements than a library card.
- lurquer 7y ago
  Moreover, the State collects a filing fee... That is, a library card grants you permission to borrow something from the State, while the Corp application entails you giving the State your money.
- GuiA 7y ago
  This feels like post hoc rationalization. Read page 4 for an actual side by side comparison. You’ll see that all you really need to get a library card is present a form of identification, and perhaps a utility bill to prove your current address. Whereas for registering a corporation: ” No state requires any information about the person(s) who directly or indirectly own or control the company (often referred to as a beneficial owner)” ... along with many other similarly surprising statements that establish not even a low bar, but the absence of a bar at all. How does that make any sense when, as the report highlights, those shell corporations - that is corporations whose placeholder status is used in itself to realize some gain, and thus never have to meet “more stringent requirements” - can then be used for “tax evasion, shady campaign contributions, cigarette smuggling, and weapons dealing”?
  - objectivetruth 7y ago
    As the parent said, just setting up a Delaware corporation isn't going to be much protection for most criminal enterprises. If they want to, the ATF will get you for tobacco or gun smuggling whether you have Articles of Corporation or not. And in the US, to continue that example, there are multiple agencies and thousands of pages of regulations overseeing tax accounting and campaign finance. Sure, tons of shady shit still happens... but not because the criminals happened to file as an LLC instead of as sole proprietors.
- giancarlostoro 7y ago
trenselor 7y ago
Need nothing to vote
Mountain_Skies 7y ago
Went to rent a mailbox at the UPS Store. My drivers license and passport weren't enough identification. I needed something additional. The owner suggested I get a library card and then he could rent me the mailbox. What did the library accept as identification? My drivers license. That was all. Seemed like a weird little bit of bureaucratic red tape that accomplished pretty much nothing.
- kccqzy 7y ago
  Preponderance of evidence. If you had a fake drivers license and UPS hadn't caught it, perhaps the one at your library could catch it.
- closeparen 7y ago
  California DMV wouldn’t take my lease because it was just a printout. Changed my address with Chase from my phone while in line (no verification), walked over to the branch to get a certified statement with the new address, walked it back into the DMV, got the address on my license. The credential that actually proves where I live is rejected while the one that just repeats my arbitrary inputs is accepted! I understand there’s a strong deterrent but any reasonably smart person could defraud this. They seem not to be even trying.
  - vinay427 7y ago
    > The credential that actually proves where I live is rejected while the one that just repeats my arbitrary inputs is accepted! A lease doesn't prove where you live, though I generally agree with your point here. That being said, I think most people are fine or even supportive of them seeming to not even try.
- hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago
  Maybe defrauding a library is somehow a more significant crime than defrauding UPS?
- Teever 7y ago
  My personal favourite: Needing to show your drivers license to pick up your passport. Talk about a Kafkaesque hole in one.
rwbt 7y ago
Sure you don't need much 'info' to create a corporation. But if said corporation has any income/employees the reporting and maintenance requirements are far greater than maintaining a library card.
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago
  > if said corporation has any income/employees Income, opens a bank account, takes out a loan, et cetera. Incorporation per se has no need to be intensive.
- mch82 7y ago
  Incorporation requires a bunch of info, plus the step of registering the company. The claim in the headline is wrong as far as I’m able to tell. Edit: In my original comment I added some links.
flagfeedingusa1 7y ago
How much information do you need to vote?
lone_haxx0r 7y ago
> To form a company in any state in the U.S., it is not necessary to identify or provide any information about the person(s) who will be ultimately be controlling the company. In some cases it isn’t even necessary to provide information about who will be managing the company and, where some information about managers (i.e. officers or directors) is required, it is very limited. That's actually great!
drbojingle 7y ago
Great, I'll get my kids corporations for their 7th birthday.
- quartz 7y ago
  This could actually be a really fun project to do with your child. It's a pretty inexpensive way to teach them about how companies work, the basics of organization, and even introduce them to the idea of taxes. Registering a simple company in your local state, issuing stock, designating your board, doing your meetings and minutes, filing your $0 tax return, then dissolving it would probably only cost you ~$100 - $200 in supplies and fees.
  - kccqzy 7y ago
    Not in California, where you pay $800 annually just for existing.
    - quartz 7y ago
      Since the company is never going to actually conduct business in California I wonder if you could register in another state like Massachusetts and skip the foreign qualification in CA?
  - drbojingle 7y ago
    Yea that was my thought process as well. First idea was to use Stripe Atlas. https://stripe.com/en-ca/atlas https://stripe.com/en-ca/atlas. Costs more than your estimate but seems pretty turn key and it's a good segway in to building simple web applications and hosting them on product hunt.
lloydde 7y ago
reminds me of other reading from today. You can get a US National (healthcare) Provider Identifier (NPI) without any verification: > @Aetna @Cigna @UHC 27/ Medicare officials declined to be interviewed about Williams. But in a statement, they acknowledged that the agency doesn’t verify whether an NPI applicant is a medical provider or has a criminal history. https://twitter.com/marshall_allen/status/1152243614950576128 https://twitter.com/marshall_allen/status/115224361495057612... > @Aetna @Cigna @UHC 16/ He kept getting new NPIs. For every application, Williams also obtained a new employer identification number, used for tax purposes. But he never hid who he was, using his real name, address and phone number on the applications. Medicare gave him 20 NPIs! https://twitter.com/marshall_allen/status/1152241484315406338 https://twitter.com/marshall_allen/status/115224148431540633... edited: provided the NPI meaning.
- joshgel 7y ago
  I'm a doctor. This is insane. Usually I prescribe electronically, but there have also been times I had to call a pharmacy or just walk in and in either case all I have to do is verbally give my NPI number. (not for controlled substances) All those years of study... /s
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  NPI: National (healthcare) Provider Identifier. https://www.asha.org/practice/reimbursement/hipaa/NPI/ https://www.asha.org/practice/reimbursement/hipaa/NPI/
  - lloydde 7y ago
    thank you, I’ve update with the acronym meaning
dfeojm-zlib 7y ago
Here's an example of what you need for a Delaware C-corp: https://www.incnow.com/delaware-corporation/ https://www.incnow.com/delaware-corporation/ - Name of the corporation - Name and address of the Registered Agent of the corporation (usually a mail forwarding service) - Statement of the type of business that the corporation will engage in - Number of shares of authorized stock that the corporation will issue - Par value of each share - Name and signature of the incorporator - Indemnification clause for breaches of Duty of Care - Allowance for Director Amended Bylaws ---------------------------- Library card, i.e., Mountain View, California: https://library.mountainview.gov/selfreg https://library.mountainview.gov/selfreg - (photo identification) - (address verification) - Last Name: * - First Name:* - Middle Name: - Street Address:* - City, State, & Zip:* - Phone number:* (XXX-XXX-XXXX) - Birthdate:* (MM-DD-YYYY) - Email address: * Required ---------------------------- Required by: Sections 214-216 PATRIOT Act of 2001 http://www.ala.org/advocacy/advleg/federallegislation/theusapatriotact http://www.ala.org/advocacy/advleg/federallegislation/theusa... https://www.congress.gov/bill/107th-congress/house-bill/03162 https://www.congress.gov/bill/107th-congress/house-bill/0316...
- the_pwner224 7y ago
  In Chicago the only requirements are a photo ID with address, or a letter with your name and address + an ID with your photo and name. Enough to comply with the anti-PATRIOTic act. But if that weren't the case, having your name/address/photo seems like a reasonable prerequisite for loaning you materials for free - the system would be very easy to abuse otherwise.
  - johnpowell 7y ago
    They also want to know that you live in the area they serve since local taxes are paying for the library. I can get a library card in the town over. They just want 80 bucks a year for it.
- elliekelly 7y ago
  At first I thought, this makes no sense. Why would the Patriot Act care more about who's getting a library card than incorporating when the dirty money is obviously flowing through the entity? And then I realized, the government gets all of the ID information they need about the corporation the moment the entity needs to open a bank account. ID not just for the single corporator, but information about all of the officers and directors, and increasingly, about shareholders and major investors as well. From the government's perspective, it actually does make quite a bit more sense to gather more (and better) information through the banking system at a later time. It's low risk and the additional information is significantly more valuable.
seizethecheese 7y ago
One pays to become a corporation. One gets a service from a library card. Makes some sense.
starlig-ht 7y ago
Can a corporation get a library card?
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  Yes, e.g., https://thelibrary.org/about/compcard.pdf https://thelibrary.org/about/compcard.pdf
quartz 7y ago
Starting a business should be something anyone in the US can do without hiring lawyers and wading through complex paperwork. In Massachusetts you can even download a fill-in-the-blank articles of organization and look up the filed articles for any existing company online if you want to see how others are doing it.
dredmorbius 7y ago
The reasons for requesting robust identification for those filingbfor incorporation, dismissed by several comments here, are given in the first parafraph of the linked report: In early April 2016 the largest cache of private documents in history were leaked to journalists and subsequently exposed the shadowy world of offshore tax fraud, money laundering and corruption that hides behind anonymous shell corporations. The documents, which included email, incorporation papers and other private communications, were from a little-known Panamanian law firm called Mossack Fonseca and were released by the nternational Consortium of Investigative Journalists which had received them from a whistleblower. The ensuing scandal followed two others before it – Lux Leaks and Swiss Leaks which were related to bank-enabled tax evasion – but dwarfed them in the sheer amount of data involved. https://secureservercdn.net/45.40.149.159/34n.8bd.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/GFI-Library-Card-Project.pdf https://secureservercdn.net/45.40.149.159/34n.8bd.myftpuploa... The Securities Act of 1933, setting among the few national registration requirements in the USstates as its basis, following an episode of history in which such need was established: To provide full and fair disclosure of the character of securities sold in interstate and foreign commerce and through the mails, and to prevent frauds in the sale thereof, and for other purposes. http://legislink.org/us/pl-73-22 http://legislink.org/us/pl-73-22 The history of Delaware incorporation law makes clear at numerous point obligations for good-faith dealings and power to pierce the legal fictions of incorporation: It is well settled that a court of equity may disregard formalities and break through the shell of fictions in order to prevent, or undo fraud. ... Directors of a corporation are trustees for the stockholders, and their acts are governed by the rules applicable to such a relation, which exact of them the utmost good faith and fair dealing, especially where their individual interests are concerned." "A History of Delaware Corporation Law" http://www.djcl.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/A-History-of-Delaware-Corporation-Law1.pdf http://www.djcl.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/A-History-of-... (Though concern for general public trust is notably absent.) See also KYC. (know your customer) laws in banking. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer Note that incorporating is not necessary to run a business -- sole proprieterships and partnerships exist. Incorporation extends specific legal protections by the state in return for net social benefit. In theory.
theDoug 7y ago
> To obtain a library card in any state in the U.S., the applicant must be the person who will ultimately be controlling/using the card, and a significant amount of identifying information must be provided by the person to the state in order to obtain the library card. This is nonsesne, or at least was here in Sunnyvale California. I walked in with a phone bill. No ID, nothing else. In hindsight it probably could have been anyone's bill, or even a fake.
WarOnPrivacy 7y ago
Preface: I keyword searched for 'county' & 'counties' on this page & didn't see my point raised. The article compares library cards state by state. However, I've never heard of a state issued library card, only county, city or other local municipality. My point is I'm not clear where the researchers found 50 sets of state library card requirements. There's ~3000 counties and at least 4000 cities in the US. Somewhere in those numbers ought to be how many different sets of library card requirements, there are in the US.
deleted 7y ago
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phendrenad2 7y ago
Interesting historical tidbit: Many libraries had very lax requirements for library cards pre-9/11. The PATRIOT Act forced them to collect more information. https://sfpl.org/index.php?pg=2000060501&fullsite=true https://sfpl.org/index.php?pg=2000060501&fullsite=true
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  Yup. In 2000 or so I was just asked what my address was and my name. There was no verification.
- minikites 7y ago
  Librarians have been defenders of privacy for a very long time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoia_Horn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoia_Horn
- droithomme 7y ago
  Thanks I was wondering when it changed. I got all my library cards for years with no verification and used fake names on all of them.
  - benjaminbrodie 7y ago
    lol why tho
- augustocallejas 7y ago
  Ironic, since the Ad Council released commercials like these after 9/11 showing someone getting questioned after asking about a book in a library, and ending with "What if America wasn't America?": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgmBFb4jfjw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgmBFb4jfjw
  - thepangolino 7y ago
    Why is it an unlisted video?
Havoc 7y ago
haha...knew what state would be the focus without even opening the link. I'm not even in the US and we see a ton of Delaware entities.
rahimnathwani 7y ago
The information for California is incorrect. At least in San Francisco: - you can get a library card without any proof of address (with this type of card, you can only check out one physical item at a time: https://sfpl.libanswers.com/faq/129952 https://sfpl.libanswers.com/faq/129952) - Phone number and email address are each optional fields on the application form: https://sflib1.sfpl.org/selfreg https://sflib1.sfpl.org/selfreg
OrgNet 7y ago
they should just mail a library card to everyone who is entitled to it? or maybe just check your id when you try to borrow a book
mindslight 7y ago
Based on the title, I thought this was going to be a hackeresque how-to style thing, distilling techniques that the rich use and getting them into the hands of every day people. But no, rather it's a call for legislation that will stifle less-moneyed actors, keeping the privilege reserved for the elite. The end result would undoubtedly contain a loophole akin to FACTA's directly-held art exemption.

198 points by resalisbury 7y ago

This isn’t true. Here are the instructions for incorporating in Delaware: https://corp.delaware.gov/howtoform/ https://corp.delaware.gov/howtoform/ A form an cover sheet are required. Plus, there is an obligation to submit an annual tax filing with lots of information. Here is the online application for a library card in Orange County, CA: https://web.ocpl.org/n/LibraryCardApplication/ https://web.ocpl.org/n/LibraryCardApplication/ I’m sure things vary state by state, but I’ll leave that for others to comment.

deleted 7y ago

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rpiguy 7y ago

As it should be.

samschooler 7y ago
Can you expand on this? I'm wondering what your reasoning is for requiring more or less info in either case.
- rpiguy 7y ago
  Commerce is good and barriers to it should be minimal. Libraries are community property, paid for by tax payers. If you are going to borrow community property it is not a small thing. Almost anyone can walk into a library, pick up a book, and read it there. So there is still relatively good access to information. It is the borrowing part that creates the red tape. Even if it is simpler to create a company than get a library card, I guarantee as soon as that company tries to borrow money there will be plenty of paperwork :-)

jdoliner 7y ago

I don't see any particular reason why the identification process for a corporation should be more stringent than a library card. What is astonishing to me is that both are meaningfully more stringent than voting. In Minnesota for example, all one needs is another registered voter to vouch for them. https://www.sos.state.mn.us/elections-voting/register-to-vote/register-on-election-day/ https://www.sos.state.mn.us/elections-voting/register-to-vot...

m463 7y ago
I see voting as the sandbox/turf of politicians, with huge battles for all ground gain or lost.
teachrdan 7y ago
To the contrary: There were only four known cases of voter fraud in the 2016 elections[0]; more stringent voting requirements suppresses voting, especially by poor, black and/or Latinx voters.[1] It certainly seems the case that more damage has been done to society via corporations to which no human person can be associated than by voter fraud. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/12/01/0-000002-percent-of-all-the-ballots-cast-in-the-2016-election-were-fraudulent/?utm_term=.1bd9a0995e5d https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/12/01/0-... [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/02/15/do-voter-identification-laws-suppress-minority-voting-yes-we-did-the-research/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/02/1...
- mberning 7y ago
  Are you saying poor people and brown people don’t know how to get a state ID? That’s pretty ridiculous and in the latter case racist.
- foreach9885 7y ago
  Because we have unauthenticated voting in most blue states, we can not know how rampant voter fraud is. The only detectable voter fraud would be extreme corner cases, where they have a confession, or some other kind of evidence. Because as of right now, we are not allowed to verify who it is that is voting. Frankly, the federal government should not accept the outcomes of any elections from California, until they can hold a real election.

flattone 7y ago

from a "which has greater social liability" the title makes sense, in that the circumstances are counter intuitive.

ars 7y ago

It says "significant" amount of info for a library card. Yet every library I've ever registered at just needed a piece of mail with your name on it. That's it.

hak8or 7y ago

This varies extremely across various states and cities. If you live in new York city for example, to incoroerate an llc, you need to take out a section in a news paper to say you created an llc of name so and so, every day, for like a week, within a year (if I remember right) of your incorporation. Across three news papers too. If you go "OK fine, I will incorporate elsewhere, like Delaware", then NYC views you as a foreign investor and mandates you still do the news paper thing. Here is the kicker though, the news paper you are allowed to do this in vary based on county. You live in queens? That's a solid few thousand dollars. Brooklyn? Also a few thousand. Staten island? Less than $300. If you do not do this then the enforcement mechanism is that when you get sued, then a court can take back the corporate veil perk of your llc (llc is void so it turns into a sole proprietorship I think) and go after your personal assets if you loose a lawsuit.

cddotdotslash 7y ago
It's a really annoying process, agreed. If you're looking to setup an LLC in NYC, I've heard you can form it upstate and do the newspaper requirement there (where publication is cheaper) and then transfer back to the city.
CPLX 7y ago
> If you do not do this then the enforcement mechanism is that when you get sued, then a court can take back the corporate veil perk of your llc (llc is void so it turns into a sole proprietorship I think) and go after your personal assets if you loose a lawsuit. This is a common misconception. In real life there is no actual penalty for not placing the ads. In the event you’re challenged on it, the deficiency could be remedied by immediately placing the ad, but that literally will never happen. It is, in fact, a special interest giveaway to some local publications, but there’s no teeth to the law.
- mieseratte 7y ago
  > It is, in fact, a special interest giveaway to some local publications, but there’s no teeth to the law. So you have to hope no one wants to come after you? What would happen if this were actually in court? Overturned for lack of enforcement?

stonogo 7y ago

This comparison is stupid. Corporate registration is explicitly public information. Librarians are notorious for the fervency with which they protect the personal information of library patrons.

the_pwner224 7y ago
If information is collected then it can be stolen. Even if it is not permanently (or even temporarily) stored.
- stonogo 7y ago
  Irrelevant, but even if I humor you: The PATRIOT act does not require libraries collect any more personal information than the government already has. The comparison is utterly meaningless.

reaperducer 7y ago

I don't see the problem with this. With a library card, a person can act irresponsibly with public property. With a corporation, a person can act irresponsibly with private property.

BonesJustice 7y ago
If the scope of potential damage were limited to the assets owned by said corporation, perhaps. In reality, a corporation so isolated would have no reason to exist.
- tptacek 7y ago
  In reality, a corporation with no documentation or operating history will have a hard time getting access to other people's assets. The requirements to actually operate a corporation are a lot more stringent than the requirements to create one on paper.

Kaveren 7y ago

Creating companies should be as frictionless as possible. You shouldn't need to provide much information at all, and it should be extremely cheap. Some states do this pretty well, others not so much. I'd rather a library card take almost no information as well, but you could run into issues with stealing, so it makes sense that it would take more.

bdcravens 7y ago

A library is loaning you property, usually collateral-free. A corporation is just a placeholder essentially for the activities it will perform, each of which will likely have far more stringent requirements than a library card.

lurquer 7y ago
Moreover, the State collects a filing fee... That is, a library card grants you permission to borrow something from the State, while the Corp application entails you giving the State your money.
GuiA 7y ago
This feels like post hoc rationalization. Read page 4 for an actual side by side comparison. You’ll see that all you really need to get a library card is present a form of identification, and perhaps a utility bill to prove your current address. Whereas for registering a corporation: ” No state requires any information about the person(s) who directly or indirectly own or control the company (often referred to as a beneficial owner)” ... along with many other similarly surprising statements that establish not even a low bar, but the absence of a bar at all. How does that make any sense when, as the report highlights, those shell corporations - that is corporations whose placeholder status is used in itself to realize some gain, and thus never have to meet “more stringent requirements” - can then be used for “tax evasion, shady campaign contributions, cigarette smuggling, and weapons dealing”?
- objectivetruth 7y ago
  As the parent said, just setting up a Delaware corporation isn't going to be much protection for most criminal enterprises. If they want to, the ATF will get you for tobacco or gun smuggling whether you have Articles of Corporation or not. And in the US, to continue that example, there are multiple agencies and thousands of pages of regulations overseeing tax accounting and campaign finance. Sure, tons of shady shit still happens... but not because the criminals happened to file as an LLC instead of as sole proprietors.
giancarlostoro 7y ago

trenselor 7y ago

Need nothing to vote

Mountain_Skies 7y ago

Went to rent a mailbox at the UPS Store. My drivers license and passport weren't enough identification. I needed something additional. The owner suggested I get a library card and then he could rent me the mailbox. What did the library accept as identification? My drivers license. That was all. Seemed like a weird little bit of bureaucratic red tape that accomplished pretty much nothing.

kccqzy 7y ago
Preponderance of evidence. If you had a fake drivers license and UPS hadn't caught it, perhaps the one at your library could catch it.
closeparen 7y ago
California DMV wouldn’t take my lease because it was just a printout. Changed my address with Chase from my phone while in line (no verification), walked over to the branch to get a certified statement with the new address, walked it back into the DMV, got the address on my license. The credential that actually proves where I live is rejected while the one that just repeats my arbitrary inputs is accepted! I understand there’s a strong deterrent but any reasonably smart person could defraud this. They seem not to be even trying.
- vinay427 7y ago
  > The credential that actually proves where I live is rejected while the one that just repeats my arbitrary inputs is accepted! A lease doesn't prove where you live, though I generally agree with your point here. That being said, I think most people are fine or even supportive of them seeming to not even try.
hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago
Maybe defrauding a library is somehow a more significant crime than defrauding UPS?
Teever 7y ago
My personal favourite: Needing to show your drivers license to pick up your passport. Talk about a Kafkaesque hole in one.

rwbt 7y ago

Sure you don't need much 'info' to create a corporation. But if said corporation has any income/employees the reporting and maintenance requirements are far greater than maintaining a library card.

JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> if said corporation has any income/employees Income, opens a bank account, takes out a loan, et cetera. Incorporation per se has no need to be intensive.
mch82 7y ago
Incorporation requires a bunch of info, plus the step of registering the company. The claim in the headline is wrong as far as I’m able to tell. Edit: In my original comment I added some links.

flagfeedingusa1 7y ago

How much information do you need to vote?

lone_haxx0r 7y ago

> To form a company in any state in the U.S., it is not necessary to identify or provide any information about the person(s) who will be ultimately be controlling the company. In some cases it isn’t even necessary to provide information about who will be managing the company and, where some information about managers (i.e. officers or directors) is required, it is very limited. That's actually great!

drbojingle 7y ago

Great, I'll get my kids corporations for their 7th birthday.

quartz 7y ago
This could actually be a really fun project to do with your child. It's a pretty inexpensive way to teach them about how companies work, the basics of organization, and even introduce them to the idea of taxes. Registering a simple company in your local state, issuing stock, designating your board, doing your meetings and minutes, filing your $0 tax return, then dissolving it would probably only cost you ~$100 - $200 in supplies and fees.
- kccqzy 7y ago
  Not in California, where you pay $800 annually just for existing.
  - quartz 7y ago
    Since the company is never going to actually conduct business in California I wonder if you could register in another state like Massachusetts and skip the foreign qualification in CA?
- drbojingle 7y ago
  Yea that was my thought process as well. First idea was to use Stripe Atlas. https://stripe.com/en-ca/atlas https://stripe.com/en-ca/atlas. Costs more than your estimate but seems pretty turn key and it's a good segway in to building simple web applications and hosting them on product hunt.

lloydde 7y ago

reminds me of other reading from today. You can get a US National (healthcare) Provider Identifier (NPI) without any verification: > @Aetna @Cigna @UHC 27/ Medicare officials declined to be interviewed about Williams. But in a statement, they acknowledged that the agency doesn’t verify whether an NPI applicant is a medical provider or has a criminal history. https://twitter.com/marshall_allen/status/1152243614950576128 https://twitter.com/marshall_allen/status/115224361495057612... > @Aetna @Cigna @UHC 16/ He kept getting new NPIs. For every application, Williams also obtained a new employer identification number, used for tax purposes. But he never hid who he was, using his real name, address and phone number on the applications. Medicare gave him 20 NPIs! https://twitter.com/marshall_allen/status/1152241484315406338 https://twitter.com/marshall_allen/status/115224148431540633... edited: provided the NPI meaning.

joshgel 7y ago
I'm a doctor. This is insane. Usually I prescribe electronically, but there have also been times I had to call a pharmacy or just walk in and in either case all I have to do is verbally give my NPI number. (not for controlled substances) All those years of study... /s
dredmorbius 7y ago
NPI: National (healthcare) Provider Identifier. https://www.asha.org/practice/reimbursement/hipaa/NPI/ https://www.asha.org/practice/reimbursement/hipaa/NPI/
- lloydde 7y ago
  thank you, I’ve update with the acronym meaning

dfeojm-zlib 7y ago

Here's an example of what you need for a Delaware C-corp: https://www.incnow.com/delaware-corporation/ https://www.incnow.com/delaware-corporation/ - Name of the corporation - Name and address of the Registered Agent of the corporation (usually a mail forwarding service) - Statement of the type of business that the corporation will engage in - Number of shares of authorized stock that the corporation will issue - Par value of each share - Name and signature of the incorporator - Indemnification clause for breaches of Duty of Care - Allowance for Director Amended Bylaws ---------------------------- Library card, i.e., Mountain View, California: https://library.mountainview.gov/selfreg https://library.mountainview.gov/selfreg - (photo identification) - (address verification) - Last Name: * - First Name:* - Middle Name: - Street Address:* - City, State, & Zip:* - Phone number:* (XXX-XXX-XXXX) - Birthdate:* (MM-DD-YYYY) - Email address: * Required ---------------------------- Required by: Sections 214-216 PATRIOT Act of 2001 http://www.ala.org/advocacy/advleg/federallegislation/theusapatriotact http://www.ala.org/advocacy/advleg/federallegislation/theusa... https://www.congress.gov/bill/107th-congress/house-bill/03162 https://www.congress.gov/bill/107th-congress/house-bill/0316...

the_pwner224 7y ago
In Chicago the only requirements are a photo ID with address, or a letter with your name and address + an ID with your photo and name. Enough to comply with the anti-PATRIOTic act. But if that weren't the case, having your name/address/photo seems like a reasonable prerequisite for loaning you materials for free - the system would be very easy to abuse otherwise.
- johnpowell 7y ago
  They also want to know that you live in the area they serve since local taxes are paying for the library. I can get a library card in the town over. They just want 80 bucks a year for it.
elliekelly 7y ago
At first I thought, this makes no sense. Why would the Patriot Act care more about who's getting a library card than incorporating when the dirty money is obviously flowing through the entity? And then I realized, the government gets all of the ID information they need about the corporation the moment the entity needs to open a bank account. ID not just for the single corporator, but information about all of the officers and directors, and increasingly, about shareholders and major investors as well. From the government's perspective, it actually does make quite a bit more sense to gather more (and better) information through the banking system at a later time. It's low risk and the additional information is significantly more valuable.

seizethecheese 7y ago

One pays to become a corporation. One gets a service from a library card. Makes some sense.

starlig-ht 7y ago

Can a corporation get a library card?

dredmorbius 7y ago
Yes, e.g., https://thelibrary.org/about/compcard.pdf https://thelibrary.org/about/compcard.pdf

quartz 7y ago

Starting a business should be something anyone in the US can do without hiring lawyers and wading through complex paperwork. In Massachusetts you can even download a fill-in-the-blank articles of organization and look up the filed articles for any existing company online if you want to see how others are doing it.

dredmorbius 7y ago

The reasons for requesting robust identification for those filingbfor incorporation, dismissed by several comments here, are given in the first parafraph of the linked report: In early April 2016 the largest cache of private documents in history were leaked to journalists and subsequently exposed the shadowy world of offshore tax fraud, money laundering and corruption that hides behind anonymous shell corporations. The documents, which included email, incorporation papers and other private communications, were from a little-known Panamanian law firm called Mossack Fonseca and were released by the nternational Consortium of Investigative Journalists which had received them from a whistleblower. The ensuing scandal followed two others before it – Lux Leaks and Swiss Leaks which were related to bank-enabled tax evasion – but dwarfed them in the sheer amount of data involved. https://secureservercdn.net/45.40.149.159/34n.8bd.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/GFI-Library-Card-Project.pdf https://secureservercdn.net/45.40.149.159/34n.8bd.myftpuploa... The Securities Act of 1933, setting among the few national registration requirements in the USstates as its basis, following an episode of history in which such need was established: To provide full and fair disclosure of the character of securities sold in interstate and foreign commerce and through the mails, and to prevent frauds in the sale thereof, and for other purposes. http://legislink.org/us/pl-73-22 http://legislink.org/us/pl-73-22 The history of Delaware incorporation law makes clear at numerous point obligations for good-faith dealings and power to pierce the legal fictions of incorporation: It is well settled that a court of equity may disregard formalities and break through the shell of fictions in order to prevent, or undo fraud. ... Directors of a corporation are trustees for the stockholders, and their acts are governed by the rules applicable to such a relation, which exact of them the utmost good faith and fair dealing, especially where their individual interests are concerned." "A History of Delaware Corporation Law" http://www.djcl.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/A-History-of-Delaware-Corporation-Law1.pdf http://www.djcl.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/A-History-of-... (Though concern for general public trust is notably absent.) See also KYC. (know your customer) laws in banking. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer Note that incorporating is not necessary to run a business -- sole proprieterships and partnerships exist. Incorporation extends specific legal protections by the state in return for net social benefit. In theory.

theDoug 7y ago

> To obtain a library card in any state in the U.S., the applicant must be the person who will ultimately be controlling/using the card, and a significant amount of identifying information must be provided by the person to the state in order to obtain the library card. This is nonsesne, or at least was here in Sunnyvale California. I walked in with a phone bill. No ID, nothing else. In hindsight it probably could have been anyone's bill, or even a fake.

WarOnPrivacy 7y ago

Preface: I keyword searched for 'county' & 'counties' on this page & didn't see my point raised. The article compares library cards state by state. However, I've never heard of a state issued library card, only county, city or other local municipality. My point is I'm not clear where the researchers found 50 sets of state library card requirements. There's ~3000 counties and at least 4000 cities in the US. Somewhere in those numbers ought to be how many different sets of library card requirements, there are in the US.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

phendrenad2 7y ago

Interesting historical tidbit: Many libraries had very lax requirements for library cards pre-9/11. The PATRIOT Act forced them to collect more information. https://sfpl.org/index.php?pg=2000060501&fullsite=true https://sfpl.org/index.php?pg=2000060501&fullsite=true

dsfyu404ed 7y ago
Yup. In 2000 or so I was just asked what my address was and my name. There was no verification.
minikites 7y ago
Librarians have been defenders of privacy for a very long time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoia_Horn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoia_Horn
droithomme 7y ago
Thanks I was wondering when it changed. I got all my library cards for years with no verification and used fake names on all of them.
- benjaminbrodie 7y ago
  lol why tho
augustocallejas 7y ago
Ironic, since the Ad Council released commercials like these after 9/11 showing someone getting questioned after asking about a book in a library, and ending with "What if America wasn't America?": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgmBFb4jfjw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgmBFb4jfjw
- thepangolino 7y ago
  Why is it an unlisted video?

Havoc 7y ago

haha...knew what state would be the focus without even opening the link. I'm not even in the US and we see a ton of Delaware entities.

rahimnathwani 7y ago

The information for California is incorrect. At least in San Francisco: - you can get a library card without any proof of address (with this type of card, you can only check out one physical item at a time: https://sfpl.libanswers.com/faq/129952 https://sfpl.libanswers.com/faq/129952) - Phone number and email address are each optional fields on the application form: https://sflib1.sfpl.org/selfreg https://sflib1.sfpl.org/selfreg

OrgNet 7y ago

they should just mail a library card to everyone who is entitled to it? or maybe just check your id when you try to borrow a book

mindslight 7y ago

Based on the title, I thought this was going to be a hackeresque how-to style thing, distilling techniques that the rich use and getting them into the hands of every day people. But no, rather it's a call for legislation that will stifle less-moneyed actors, keeping the privilege reserved for the elite. The end result would undoubtedly contain a loophole akin to FACTA's directly-held art exemption.