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> what does the Dalai Lama and Uighur oppression have to do with this The snark likely comes from the fact that Xinjiang is consistently portrayed in Western m

> what does the Dalai Lama and Uighur oppression have to do with this The snark likely comes from the fact that Xinjiang is consistently portrayed in Western media as a nightmarish, dystopian, Orwellian hellhole suffering under the iron fisted oppression of the Communist Party. They ignore the very real benefits that have been afforded to millions of poverty-stricken people in Xinjiang via progressive government policies, while tunnel visioning solely on human rights abuses.

seanmcdirmid 7y ago
It has absolutely nothing to do with the answer, however. Xinjiang and Tibet are complicated, China has obviously improved their economies and has obviously trampled on human rights. Both of those things can easily coexist (the same could be said about western colonialism, one doesn’t excuse the other). The western media does report those things, it’s just that the Chinese media only focuses on those pieces from the western media that it wants to be defensive about. Call it tunnel tunnel vision if you will.
- tepidandroid 7y ago
  I don’t disagree with you that the two can coexist. I’m saying the mainstream publications have skewed most people’s perception of Xinjiang so far out of the realm of reality that they would likely be absolutely shocked if they ever actually set foot there. World class airports, modern agricultural techniques, a high speed rail system that would put the ones in NY or London to shame [1]. Stray from the “dystopian Xinjiang” narrative and you’re automatically branded a 50c army propagandist. I honestly can’t remember the last time I saw a sensational exposé about alleviating poverty through technology-driven, sustainable farming in Xinjiang, in a mainstream publication. On the other hand, I don’t have enough hairs on my head to count the number of condemnations and denouncements. This is likely the cause of frustration that you see seeping through in answers such as the one posted. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHCs582uUx8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHCs582uUx8
  - Cacti 7y ago
    So is your argument that they should be grateful for what they e been given? Because this is an absurd argument. Nowhere is it written that they can’t have both be treated like the rest of the country and economic prosperity like the rest of the country. This is just a bullshit way of justifying oppression using the economic development they would have received anyway. People make the same absurd arguments about slavery, and lack of suffrage, and it’s just as obviously bullshit in those cases as it is in this one.
    - pms 7y ago
      I recommend reading comments in this thread: "Tibet used to be a feudal serfdom with the Lamas lording over everyone else. Most Dalai Lamas were murdered by their rivals for control over the country. So yeah, of course the Lamas are upset that they're no longer in power." "I’m of the opinion that it’s impossible to achieve economic progress with social upheaval, threats of separatism and terrorist attacks. Economic progress is incompatible with the others. It's the extreme poverty and lack of economic opportunities which drive destabilizing forces such as these. Prosperity by means of terrorism then separatism is the path offered by the WUC and ETIM. Prosperity by means of forced “re-education” in vocational skills and poverty alleviation plans [1] is the one offered by the CCP. I think it’s the CCP’s gambit that when there is economic prosperity in the region, there will be room for expanding human rights. There won’t be a need or desire to separate from a system which you are actively benefiting from and when that threat goes away, so do the armoured patrols and surveillance mechanisms. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/china-poverty-xinjiang/china..." https://www.reuters.com/article/china-poverty-xinjiang/china...
  - crimsonalucard 7y ago
    Meanwhile California can't even put together a high speed rail line between SF and LA because of Human rights. Your right to have good public transit is being violated by someone else's right to not have a rail go through their lawn. Protect that man's right to a lawn at all costs.
    - HillaryBriss 7y ago
- tepidandroid 7y ago
  Re-reading my comment, I should have actually written “I don’t disagree with you that the two can coexist, but only in certain contexts”. I’m of the opinion that it’s impossible to achieve economic progress with social upheaval, threats of separatism and terrorist attacks. Economic progress is incompatible with the others. It's the extreme poverty and lack of economic opportunities which drive destabilizing forces such as these. Prosperity by means of terrorism then separatism is the path offered by the WUC and ETIM. Prosperity by means of forced “re-education” in vocational skills and poverty alleviation plans [1] is the one offered by the CCP. I think it’s the CCP’s gambit that when there is economic prosperity in the region, there will be room for expanding human rights. There won’t be a need or desire to separate from a system which you are actively benefiting from and when that threat goes away, so do the armoured patrols and surveillance mechanisms. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/china-poverty-xinjiang/chinas-xinjiang-region-unveils-poverty-relief-plan-idUSL4N1Q806D https://www.reuters.com/article/china-poverty-xinjiang/china...
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    It didn’t really work for the British, it didn’t work for the Afrikaners, it didn’t really work for the Americans, why do the Chinese think they will get it right?
    - tepidandroid 7y ago
      If I understand the point you’re trying to make correctly, you’re likening China’s claim to Xinjiang to that of the historical colonial powers? Because if we’re going to go down that road, I have to warn you that the Xinjiang story is not nearly as black and white as the British, Dutch or American stories.
      - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        I’m pretty aware of the history: the Qing brought the Uighurs into north Xinjiang to genocide the Mongolians, who already killed a bunch of Han living there already. Still, again, nothing in history has shown that China is any better at colonizing lands than the west (or even the Russians).
cycrutchfield 7y ago
>They ignore the very real benefits that have been afforded to millions of poverty-stricken people in Xinjiang via progressive government policies, while tunnel visioning solely on human rights abuses. And I'm sure that many folks made the argument that Africans working on plantations in the South had a higher standard of living than where they came from.
kristofferR 7y ago
Hitler had some great social programs too, what's your point?
Cacti 7y ago
> Xinjiang is consistently portrayed in Western media as a nightmarish, dystopian, Orwellian hellhole suffering under the iron fisted oppression of the Communist Party That’s because it is, and if you visited you wouldn’t be so flippant about it. In large part because a tourist can’t even make a stop in the area without getting their own personal police minder. It’s little different than North Korea.
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  I’ve visited Xinjiang in 2006, before the 2008 riots mind you, but it’s just another Chinese province and you wouldn’t know there was trouble going on if it weren’t for the armed police, extra internet fire walling, and so on. That is not to say there isn’t a problem, but hanging out in Urumqi is definitely nowhere near as interesting as hanging out in Pyongyang. Tibet is much harder to visit, foreigners have to apply for a permit (which you don’t need to visit Xinjiang).
- roboys 7y ago
  I prefer the approach to Xinjiang deradicalization over our methods in Iraq and Syria.

seanmcdirmid 7y ago

It has absolutely nothing to do with the answer, however. Xinjiang and Tibet are complicated, China has obviously improved their economies and has obviously trampled on human rights. Both of those things can easily coexist (the same could be said about western colonialism, one doesn’t excuse the other). The western media does report those things, it’s just that the Chinese media only focuses on those pieces from the western media that it wants to be defensive about. Call it tunnel tunnel vision if you will.

tepidandroid 7y ago
I don’t disagree with you that the two can coexist. I’m saying the mainstream publications have skewed most people’s perception of Xinjiang so far out of the realm of reality that they would likely be absolutely shocked if they ever actually set foot there. World class airports, modern agricultural techniques, a high speed rail system that would put the ones in NY or London to shame [1]. Stray from the “dystopian Xinjiang” narrative and you’re automatically branded a 50c army propagandist. I honestly can’t remember the last time I saw a sensational exposé about alleviating poverty through technology-driven, sustainable farming in Xinjiang, in a mainstream publication. On the other hand, I don’t have enough hairs on my head to count the number of condemnations and denouncements. This is likely the cause of frustration that you see seeping through in answers such as the one posted. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHCs582uUx8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHCs582uUx8
- Cacti 7y ago
  So is your argument that they should be grateful for what they e been given? Because this is an absurd argument. Nowhere is it written that they can’t have both be treated like the rest of the country and economic prosperity like the rest of the country. This is just a bullshit way of justifying oppression using the economic development they would have received anyway. People make the same absurd arguments about slavery, and lack of suffrage, and it’s just as obviously bullshit in those cases as it is in this one.
  - pms 7y ago
    I recommend reading comments in this thread: "Tibet used to be a feudal serfdom with the Lamas lording over everyone else. Most Dalai Lamas were murdered by their rivals for control over the country. So yeah, of course the Lamas are upset that they're no longer in power." "I’m of the opinion that it’s impossible to achieve economic progress with social upheaval, threats of separatism and terrorist attacks. Economic progress is incompatible with the others. It's the extreme poverty and lack of economic opportunities which drive destabilizing forces such as these. Prosperity by means of terrorism then separatism is the path offered by the WUC and ETIM. Prosperity by means of forced “re-education” in vocational skills and poverty alleviation plans [1] is the one offered by the CCP. I think it’s the CCP’s gambit that when there is economic prosperity in the region, there will be room for expanding human rights. There won’t be a need or desire to separate from a system which you are actively benefiting from and when that threat goes away, so do the armoured patrols and surveillance mechanisms. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/china-poverty-xinjiang/china..." https://www.reuters.com/article/china-poverty-xinjiang/china...
- crimsonalucard 7y ago
  Meanwhile California can't even put together a high speed rail line between SF and LA because of Human rights. Your right to have good public transit is being violated by someone else's right to not have a rail go through their lawn. Protect that man's right to a lawn at all costs.
  - HillaryBriss 7y ago
tepidandroid 7y ago
Re-reading my comment, I should have actually written “I don’t disagree with you that the two can coexist, but only in certain contexts”. I’m of the opinion that it’s impossible to achieve economic progress with social upheaval, threats of separatism and terrorist attacks. Economic progress is incompatible with the others. It's the extreme poverty and lack of economic opportunities which drive destabilizing forces such as these. Prosperity by means of terrorism then separatism is the path offered by the WUC and ETIM. Prosperity by means of forced “re-education” in vocational skills and poverty alleviation plans [1] is the one offered by the CCP. I think it’s the CCP’s gambit that when there is economic prosperity in the region, there will be room for expanding human rights. There won’t be a need or desire to separate from a system which you are actively benefiting from and when that threat goes away, so do the armoured patrols and surveillance mechanisms. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/china-poverty-xinjiang/chinas-xinjiang-region-unveils-poverty-relief-plan-idUSL4N1Q806D https://www.reuters.com/article/china-poverty-xinjiang/china...
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  It didn’t really work for the British, it didn’t work for the Afrikaners, it didn’t really work for the Americans, why do the Chinese think they will get it right?
  - tepidandroid 7y ago
    If I understand the point you’re trying to make correctly, you’re likening China’s claim to Xinjiang to that of the historical colonial powers? Because if we’re going to go down that road, I have to warn you that the Xinjiang story is not nearly as black and white as the British, Dutch or American stories.
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      I’m pretty aware of the history: the Qing brought the Uighurs into north Xinjiang to genocide the Mongolians, who already killed a bunch of Han living there already. Still, again, nothing in history has shown that China is any better at colonizing lands than the west (or even the Russians).

cycrutchfield 7y ago

>They ignore the very real benefits that have been afforded to millions of poverty-stricken people in Xinjiang via progressive government policies, while tunnel visioning solely on human rights abuses. And I'm sure that many folks made the argument that Africans working on plantations in the South had a higher standard of living than where they came from.

kristofferR 7y ago

Hitler had some great social programs too, what's your point?

Cacti 7y ago

> Xinjiang is consistently portrayed in Western media as a nightmarish, dystopian, Orwellian hellhole suffering under the iron fisted oppression of the Communist Party That’s because it is, and if you visited you wouldn’t be so flippant about it. In large part because a tourist can’t even make a stop in the area without getting their own personal police minder. It’s little different than North Korea.

seanmcdirmid 7y ago
I’ve visited Xinjiang in 2006, before the 2008 riots mind you, but it’s just another Chinese province and you wouldn’t know there was trouble going on if it weren’t for the armed police, extra internet fire walling, and so on. That is not to say there isn’t a problem, but hanging out in Urumqi is definitely nowhere near as interesting as hanging out in Pyongyang. Tibet is much harder to visit, foreigners have to apply for a permit (which you don’t need to visit Xinjiang).
roboys 7y ago
I prefer the approach to Xinjiang deradicalization over our methods in Iraq and Syria.