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> UK made illegal copies of classified personal information from a database reserved for members of the passport-free Schengen travel zone. The UK is not in th

> UK made illegal copies of classified personal information from a database reserved for members of the passport-free Schengen travel zone. The UK is not in the Schengen travel zone and had no right to be accessing the data or sharing it with other foreign powers. The problem is that too much power is collected in one place that encourages bad actors to weaken security so that they can later do a grab and dash with "Plausible deniability". When people raise this warning it is dismissed as fear mongering, when the fears turn out to be justified people side step the issue and argue that the title should be millions instead of all. Some people have argued that the EU do not have a database of EU citizens fingerprints, but they have been building that database since 2004 [2]. These massive databases of personal information represent too much of a risk and should not exist. The only way to protect power from corruption is to distribute the power rather than consolidate it. [1] https://euobserver.com/justice/145530 https://euobserver.com/justice/145530 [2] https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-eu-fingerprints/fingerprints-in-european-passports-legal-eu-court-idUKBRE99G0FX20131017 https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-eu-fingerprints/fingerprin...

cromulent 7y ago
The UK has a special arrangement to see the stolen vehicles, arrest warrants, etc. It can't see the Schengen entry / non entry alerts. https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen-information-system_en https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/border...
- miahi 7y ago
  Not all person alerts are entry/no entry alerts, so they don't access (or don't react to) a small subset of the person data.
miahi 7y ago
Other countries that are not in the Schengen area do have access to the SIS. Their access rights were given by them signing various agreements (the status is quite complex, you should check the SA status[1] for more details). Yes, the title should be millions. Of mostly missing or wanted persons or lost passport and national IDs. Not sure how you would propose to ensure the security of a zone without a massive database of people that are not desired in that zone or documents that should not be used because they are reported as lost by their owners. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area
- dillonmckay 7y ago
  Do you think they have both a blacklist and a whitelist?
  - miahi 7y ago
    The SIS database is 100% blacklist - people who should be stopped at the border, arrested, reported or followed, objects that should be seized (like stolen cars), objects that prompt for more inquiries (like stolen/lost passports). Source: worked on SIS
    - eecc 7y ago
      And on what basis is a person added to this database? I'm referring to the "reported and followed". Activists perhaps? You know, those perfectly legitimate parties that rapidly tend to get labelled "terrorists" because reasons.
      - zaat 7y ago
        A dismissive cynical attitude helps no one. Sure, some perhaps many, people are corrupt and exercise power given to them for wrong ends. Nevertheless, at large, people want law enforcement, they want stolen goods returned to them, they want criminals to be stopped. You have better suggestion to maintain law and order?
        southerntofu 7y ago
        > Sure, some perhaps many, people are corrupt and exercise power given to them for wrong ends. That's in the nature of power dynamics. Not abusing power is the exception to the rule. > You have better suggestion to maintain law and order? I think having the rules decided upon and enforced by the people (not some centralized institution that's disconnected from the social fabric) would help a lot. What would help even more is to address the roots of criminality. There are for example many studies in the past two centuries showing that social inequalities necessarily lead to theft and violence (whether institutionalized or de facto), and that reducing unemployment (not with shitty uberized jobs) is an effective way to lower crime rates, if that is your objective. Other root causes include the repression itself of crime: prisons and psychiatric hospitals are themselves fostering very violent human interactions. Emma Goldman had a very good piece back in 1911 on prison as part of the problem: http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/goldman/aando/prisons.html http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/goldman/aando/...
atoav 7y ago
Interestingly enough these have been the talking points of the critics for decades now — one wonders if this is deliberatly ignored.
zhengiszen 7y ago
The UK has even hacked the largest ISP of another EU member country (Belgium) without consequences. It is not the first time that a member of the 5 eyes alliance is caught red-handed...
- afjl 7y ago
  Looking at your account, you seem to really enjoy bashing Anglo nations without adding much discussion.
  - GavriloPrincep 7y ago
    He told the truth and you attacked him. In this case he is in the right, and you the wrong.
  - dang 7y ago
    Personal attacks will get you banned here. If you're concerned about abuse of HN, you're welcome to email us at hn@ycombinator.com so we can look into it, but not welcome to break the site guidelines. Would you mind reviewing them? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
elliekelly 7y ago
Sooo who gets hit with a bigger GDPR fine? The UK government, for collecting/processing personal data without consent? Or the European Commission for failing to timely notify individuals impacted by a personal data breach?
dgzl 7y ago
I've been fighting against governments violating human rights for a while and I have to say: I didn't know what to do then, and I don't know what to do now.
- dangerface 7y ago
  Me too. I tried voting and while it was fun it didn't seem to matter. I tried bitching about it on the internet and while it was fun it didn't seem to matter. I guess if we are all fucked I might as well have some fun.
  - h3hj3bmb 7y ago
    The world is run by criminals. Get over it.
  - solarkraft 7y ago
    Your own vote matters, but there are (number of eligible voters -1) votes to still be influenced.

cromulent 7y ago

The UK has a special arrangement to see the stolen vehicles, arrest warrants, etc. It can't see the Schengen entry / non entry alerts. https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen-information-system_en https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/border...

miahi 7y ago
Not all person alerts are entry/no entry alerts, so they don't access (or don't react to) a small subset of the person data.

miahi 7y ago

Other countries that are not in the Schengen area do have access to the SIS. Their access rights were given by them signing various agreements (the status is quite complex, you should check the SA status[1] for more details). Yes, the title should be millions. Of mostly missing or wanted persons or lost passport and national IDs. Not sure how you would propose to ensure the security of a zone without a massive database of people that are not desired in that zone or documents that should not be used because they are reported as lost by their owners. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area

dillonmckay 7y ago
Do you think they have both a blacklist and a whitelist?
- miahi 7y ago
  The SIS database is 100% blacklist - people who should be stopped at the border, arrested, reported or followed, objects that should be seized (like stolen cars), objects that prompt for more inquiries (like stolen/lost passports). Source: worked on SIS
  - eecc 7y ago
    And on what basis is a person added to this database? I'm referring to the "reported and followed". Activists perhaps? You know, those perfectly legitimate parties that rapidly tend to get labelled "terrorists" because reasons.
    - zaat 7y ago
      A dismissive cynical attitude helps no one. Sure, some perhaps many, people are corrupt and exercise power given to them for wrong ends. Nevertheless, at large, people want law enforcement, they want stolen goods returned to them, they want criminals to be stopped. You have better suggestion to maintain law and order?
      - southerntofu 7y ago
        > Sure, some perhaps many, people are corrupt and exercise power given to them for wrong ends. That's in the nature of power dynamics. Not abusing power is the exception to the rule. > You have better suggestion to maintain law and order? I think having the rules decided upon and enforced by the people (not some centralized institution that's disconnected from the social fabric) would help a lot. What would help even more is to address the roots of criminality. There are for example many studies in the past two centuries showing that social inequalities necessarily lead to theft and violence (whether institutionalized or de facto), and that reducing unemployment (not with shitty uberized jobs) is an effective way to lower crime rates, if that is your objective. Other root causes include the repression itself of crime: prisons and psychiatric hospitals are themselves fostering very violent human interactions. Emma Goldman had a very good piece back in 1911 on prison as part of the problem: http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/goldman/aando/prisons.html http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/goldman/aando/...

atoav 7y ago

Interestingly enough these have been the talking points of the critics for decades now — one wonders if this is deliberatly ignored.

zhengiszen 7y ago

The UK has even hacked the largest ISP of another EU member country (Belgium) without consequences. It is not the first time that a member of the 5 eyes alliance is caught red-handed...

afjl 7y ago
Looking at your account, you seem to really enjoy bashing Anglo nations without adding much discussion.
- GavriloPrincep 7y ago
  He told the truth and you attacked him. In this case he is in the right, and you the wrong.
- dang 7y ago
  Personal attacks will get you banned here. If you're concerned about abuse of HN, you're welcome to email us at hn@ycombinator.com so we can look into it, but not welcome to break the site guidelines. Would you mind reviewing them? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

elliekelly 7y ago

Sooo who gets hit with a bigger GDPR fine? The UK government, for collecting/processing personal data without consent? Or the European Commission for failing to timely notify individuals impacted by a personal data breach?

dgzl 7y ago

I've been fighting against governments violating human rights for a while and I have to say: I didn't know what to do then, and I don't know what to do now.

dangerface 7y ago
Me too. I tried voting and while it was fun it didn't seem to matter. I tried bitching about it on the internet and while it was fun it didn't seem to matter. I guess if we are all fucked I might as well have some fun.
- h3hj3bmb 7y ago
  The world is run by criminals. Get over it.
- solarkraft 7y ago
  Your own vote matters, but there are (number of eligible voters -1) votes to still be influenced.