14 ms·

as a french, I cant wait for them to be out. They spent the last 50 years trying to sabotage the EU. They want to leave ? Good riddance.

by malka 7y ago

martin_a 7y ago
I'm totally with you. I wonder if UK should have left the EU even earlier and saved themselves and us a lot of hassle. I hope that the EU-friendly states might join again, but I think they would need to break up the UK for that, don't they?
- arethuza 7y ago
  It could all get very messy - I think it is is highly likely that Scotland will want a second independence referendum as a major argument for staying in the union the last time was that it meant Scotland would stay in the EU. However, I also think the current government is also unlikely to allow a second referendum, and it wouldn't surprise me if the Scottish Government decided to have one anyway. Edit: To be clear: I mean messy legally/politically - not anything worse.
  - toyg 7y ago
    Yeah, it’s going to be Catalunya all over again. Except Scotland is not a little province, and if the SNP is forced underground, stuff will start to blow up for real.
    - barry-cotter 7y ago
      Support for Scottish independence is greater in England than it is in Scotland. The U.K. isn’t Spain, the English are no more likely to keep the Scots in by force than the Canadians were going to keep Quebec in by force.
      - smcl 7y ago
        That's nonsense. Some English might claim indifference or scoff at the idea of an independent Scotland. In reality however the UK is more a part of their identity than it is ours - Scotland splitting away literally kills off the concept of the "UK". Force wouldn't even be needed however - Westminster can just brush off pleas for an independence referendum (they'll point towards the one we had a couple of years ago pre-Brexit ), there's no revolutionary movement and I really don't foresee one developing any time soon.
        toyg 7y ago
        > there's no revolutionary movement ... yet. A few years of Westminster arbitrarily frustrating calls for independence, coupled with Brexit-induced hardships and a resurgence of sectarian violence in NI, could well radicalise the SNP into taking matters in their own hands.
        smcl 7y ago
        I would be surprised and disappointed if that sort of situation didn't cause any of the mainstream parties to start talking revolution
    - HenryBemis 7y ago
      Scotland has Oil. England has gone through so much trouble over so many centuries with murders, wars, manipulation, lies, propaganda, provocacia, and other dark methods to ensure that England will rule over the UK/GB, so Scotland and Northern Ireland (to leave UK/GB and rejoin it's natural/geographical state - Irelad) will have to try very hard for independence from England and towards EU. And it is a pity for this, especially after enjoying so many years of peace.
      - smcl 7y ago
        The earnings from north sea oil would be big for Scotland alone but are pretty miniscule spread over the UK as a whole
      - mnw21cam 7y ago
        I find it highly ironic to point out that it was actually Scotland that took over ruling England (James I and all that). It's not our fault he didn't like Edinburgh and decided to move down South.
    - alexgmcm 7y ago
      Catalunya isn't a little province either - in fact much of the issue is because it has a large amount of the GDP. I'm English but was living in Scotland at the time of the referendum there (I abstained) and having been living in Barcelona since (including the vote here). I'm not sure if independence would be good or not in either case (thus why I never voted) but I hope the UK Government never tries the sort of violent voter suppression I saw here.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
karl_schlagenfu 7y ago
Which is ironic because some of the reasons Brits want to leave is because of the French, e.g. why does the EU parliament have to spend 100million+ EUR to have the parliament in Strasbourg for 3 days of the month?
- r3bl 7y ago
  It's almost as if the EU has 28 members, none of which should have an authoritative say in any of the things the bloc does. Want something changed? Build a support within a bloc. Don't pretend your opinion is any more valuable than an opinion of any of the other 27 members.
  - jessaustin 7y ago
    Don't pretend your opinion is any more valuable than an opinion of any of the other 27 members. I'm an outsider on this, but I could imagine this as an effective quote to replay in any "leave" campaign. Can we really imagine UK (or Germany) ever being relegated to having only the influence of e.g. Slovenia?
    - r3bl 7y ago
      Countries don't have direct representation, political blocs do. Each country picks its own members (at minimum, six of them in the European Parliament), those members congregate into political blocs, those blocs make proposals, build a majority within EUs regulatory bodies, and adopt changes. The difference between Germany and the UK is that German parties recognize this process and follow it. UK's (right-wing) parties, on the other hand, go on a tantrum locally whenever something doesn't go their way on an EU level, because they believe they're in a privileged position and that their vote means more within the EU. It doesn't. My aim isn't to convince "leave" campaign that they should stay. On the contrary, I agree with the comment that said good riddance. Their tantrums stopped the progress of the EU far too many times. If you think that the electoral college in the US is terrible, please, look up how Boris Johnson got to the position of the Prime Minister. The process was so undemocratic than it can't be considered anything but a complete joke. Brexit will finally happen, EU will move forward, and we'll all sit back and watch the UK's economy crash and burn. In over two years, they haven't even figured out what Brexit actually means, so the thoughts of them figuring it out within the next four months is laughable at best. There's not gonna be enough popcorns in the world for that shitshow.
seren 7y ago
Even if I can understand some Brexit fatigue, I believe this is a short-sighted view, even if they are out of the EU, geography won't change, so the UK will have to keep cooperating with continental Europe. A weak UK, that would become the pawn of another super power, would be bad news, for both UK and EU. I think this is sad that UK is leaving but no matter what, they will remain our ally and partner.
- HenryBemis 7y ago
  UK has been actively acting on USA's interests for decades, nothing new here. I am a foreigner living in the and it saddens me, but you can't keep someone in a union by force. UK economy will probably get damaged but it will recover (in a couple of decades) and we will all have to thank a) David Cameron, b) BoJo, c) the voters of "Leave" for that.
  - cat199 7y ago
    > UK has been actively acting on USA's interests for decades can't one say this isn't the other way around? bretton woods was basically a joint us+uk project, most macroeconomic policy & related geopolitics in the west (including EU) post wwII stems from this.. us is basically fighting iran overtly or covertly on behalf of the UK, and vietnam was massively in the french interest as some 'small' examples..
    - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
      That's a very charitable view. Bretton Woods was the US (mostly Harry White's) rejection of Keynes' plan and the best that could then be agreed. As a result it has a very US flavour. Not especially surprising considering most nations were near bankruptcy at the time with the sole exception of the USA. What resulted in the shape of the IMF and World bank was far different to envisaged and provided none of the speculative and recession control. History has mostly backed up Keynes' opinion, though it worked sort-of reasonably until Nixon abandoned the gold standard. Edit: Far more of the last 40 years geopolitics and economics stems from the oil crisis and the chaos of the immediately following years than Bretton Woods.
hnhg 7y ago
Maybe just sabotage some federal aspirations but also did a lot to enhance and enlarge the free market aspects. What did France meaningfully contribute so we have a baseline for comparison?
- walligatorrr 7y ago
  France was a founding member of ECSC proposed by Robert Schuman, french prime minister, created by the Paris treaty and regarded as the premise of nowadays European union and expanded to up to 28 countries. France played an instrumental/leading role in building the very idea of a community of nations in europe. The contributions of that country toward European institutions are literally countless, but let’s name a few major ones: a shared currency (€), schengen area and absolute freedom of movement for citizens, goods, services and capital (none of which UK took part of). No one can sensibly deny France contributions to pretty much any regulation, judicial/defense/scholar/research/scientific cooperations. I’m not saying UK played absolutely no role in building these institutions, but they’ve always displayed some reluctancy for further integration. Just fyi, France and Germany have been compensating since the 70s the budget contribution UK refused to make.
  - krona 7y ago
    building the very idea of a community of nations in europe Like the League of Nations? And every other (defunt) supranational institution all the way back to Napoleon?
    - landryraccoon 7y ago
      Your point is that since it wasn’t able to work before, it’ll never work? I mean, Leonardo Da Vinci wasn’t able to build a working flying machine, does that mean the Wrights were dumb to think they would succeed where Leonardo failed?
      - krona 7y ago
        If the wrights had taken Da Vinci's design and rebuilt the invention without understanding why it failed the first time, absolutely.
tomxor 7y ago
> They want to leave ? Good riddance. As citizens at least, it's pretty well understood that in majority we don't want to leave, one half definitely doesn't, the other half are mostly a combination of naive, manipulated and coerced based on false claims and social media, some portion are not manipulated or naive but have settled on some narrow view of a very large and complex decision... and finally the minority (the small number of racists and xenophobes you inevitably get in any country who want to cut off the rest of the world and built walls or some shit). We've been fucked over because we let the vulnerable portion of the other half get manipulated. The only valid vote was no, because the premise was entirely flawed... it's like having a referendum for "Do you want lower taxes" without saying exactly how, but "leave the EU" is even more complex not only in how but what that even means and what that affects which is so broad, it's like taking a huge list of very specific not necessarily related things putting them in a bag and then saying "you wana change this stuff in undefined ways" - fuck no, if you want to watch the world burn at least be up front about it.
- Zenst 7y ago
  Yes the mindset of racist/xenophobes and small minded people often take a small outliner and project that upon the group as a whole. I feel you may be on the verge of an epiphany.
- _Understated_ 7y ago
  > it's pretty well understood that in majority we don't want to leave, the other half are mostly a combination of naive, manipulated and coerced based on false claims and social media... What? There was a vote. A vote where everyone elligible had the chance to voice their opinion and the majority (albeit slim) said "we want out". As for the slur of being naieve and manipulated that's bullshit (from my standpoint anyway). You seem to be referring to people getting their news from social media... if that's their source then hell-mend them. Social media is an echo chamber. It's not designed for two-sided debates. WRT to the false claims: If anyone actually believes that a politician has their interests at heart then they're delusional. You seem to just be bitter that you (I assume) voted to stay in... I suppose you want another one until you get the result you would prefer!
Zenst 7y ago
I will agree the UK has never really embraced the whole EU project as it has become. I also agree that in many votes, the UK has been the stumbling block and with that did anybody in the UK and those wanting to keep the UK in the EU ever asked themselves - what is best for the EU? I did and that is why I voted leave myself - better for the EU and the UK. That was my reason for voting as I did. Equally, many area's in the EU that need fixing and by the UK leaving, those would stick out and get fixed. Case in point, the UK initially asked for reform within the EU and got palmed off with some concessions and we had a vote on the back of that. Now after the vote - Tusk et all have said, the EU needs reform and Macron is driving for that reform. Ironically that reform won't happen or even start to be discussed, until the UK leaves. I often get people who go on about the EU and how they are pro-EU and demanding a second vote (probably a third....until they get the result they want...) but if you ask them - what has the UK done for the EU? They stumble. But as always - comedy foretold the whole story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE
- toyg 7y ago
  This is a bit uncharitable. The UK helped the EU be more dynamic than it otherwise might have been, avoiding a certain French big-state mindset that could have seen eurobureaucracy really run riot on national laws. It definitely attracted capital investments from across the globe into the EU market, and it relieved some of the unemployment pressure in poorer countries thanks to a very dynamic labor market. Obviously there have been sore points (complete opposition to real federalism, coordinated defence, and fighting dirty money / tax evasion), but overall both the UK and EU members have benefited from working together. Brexit is a lose-lose scenario that we will all have to endure rather than enjoy, whichever side of the fence we sit on.
  - MrBuddyCasino 7y ago
    > avoiding a certain French big-state mindset that could have seen eurobureaucracy really run riot on national laws Germany is not really onboard with that either, but I agree a more extreme counter-weight would have been helpful.
- 7y ago
pimmen 7y ago
I’m Swedish and we are one of the allies of the UK in that we fought together to grant each other exceptions. I would love for us to become more integrated with the rest of the continent.
julienfr112 7y ago
As also a French, I think the French are expecting too much from the EU and that this hope is vain because most of the other countries are quite happy the way EU is right now (and as such, they don't care if it is stuck by Brexit or whatever).
craftinator 7y ago
As a french, you're great dipped in both ketchup and milkshakes. Dig that sweet and salty!
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't do this here.
smcl 7y ago
"They" is a minority of the British population
kryptiskt 7y ago
As a Swede, I'd like to keep the UK in the EU as an ally against creeping federalism. Luckily it seems that nobody outside the Benelux is all that keen on Macron's ideas.
Lio 7y ago
Well you can't really say that the UK was welcomed into the EU (or EEC) with open arms in the first place. France blocked the UK's entry three times. So there's probably always been some mutual distrust.

as a french, I cant wait for them to be out. They spent the last 50 years trying to sabotage the EU. They want to leave ? Good riddance.

by malka 7y ago

as a french, I cant wait for them to be out. They spent the last 50 years trying to sabotage the EU. They want to leave ? Good riddance.

martin_a 7y ago

I'm totally with you. I wonder if UK should have left the EU even earlier and saved themselves and us a lot of hassle. I hope that the EU-friendly states might join again, but I think they would need to break up the UK for that, don't they?

arethuza 7y ago
It could all get very messy - I think it is is highly likely that Scotland will want a second independence referendum as a major argument for staying in the union the last time was that it meant Scotland would stay in the EU. However, I also think the current government is also unlikely to allow a second referendum, and it wouldn't surprise me if the Scottish Government decided to have one anyway. Edit: To be clear: I mean messy legally/politically - not anything worse.
- toyg 7y ago
  Yeah, it’s going to be Catalunya all over again. Except Scotland is not a little province, and if the SNP is forced underground, stuff will start to blow up for real.
  - barry-cotter 7y ago
    Support for Scottish independence is greater in England than it is in Scotland. The U.K. isn’t Spain, the English are no more likely to keep the Scots in by force than the Canadians were going to keep Quebec in by force.
    - smcl 7y ago
      That's nonsense. Some English might claim indifference or scoff at the idea of an independent Scotland. In reality however the UK is more a part of their identity than it is ours - Scotland splitting away literally kills off the concept of the "UK". Force wouldn't even be needed however - Westminster can just brush off pleas for an independence referendum (they'll point towards the one we had a couple of years ago pre-Brexit ), there's no revolutionary movement and I really don't foresee one developing any time soon.
      - toyg 7y ago
        > there's no revolutionary movement ... yet. A few years of Westminster arbitrarily frustrating calls for independence, coupled with Brexit-induced hardships and a resurgence of sectarian violence in NI, could well radicalise the SNP into taking matters in their own hands.
        smcl 7y ago
        I would be surprised and disappointed if that sort of situation didn't cause any of the mainstream parties to start talking revolution
  - HenryBemis 7y ago
    Scotland has Oil. England has gone through so much trouble over so many centuries with murders, wars, manipulation, lies, propaganda, provocacia, and other dark methods to ensure that England will rule over the UK/GB, so Scotland and Northern Ireland (to leave UK/GB and rejoin it's natural/geographical state - Irelad) will have to try very hard for independence from England and towards EU. And it is a pity for this, especially after enjoying so many years of peace.
    - smcl 7y ago
      The earnings from north sea oil would be big for Scotland alone but are pretty miniscule spread over the UK as a whole
    - mnw21cam 7y ago
      I find it highly ironic to point out that it was actually Scotland that took over ruling England (James I and all that). It's not our fault he didn't like Edinburgh and decided to move down South.
  - alexgmcm 7y ago
    Catalunya isn't a little province either - in fact much of the issue is because it has a large amount of the GDP. I'm English but was living in Scotland at the time of the referendum there (I abstained) and having been living in Barcelona since (including the vote here). I'm not sure if independence would be good or not in either case (thus why I never voted) but I hope the UK Government never tries the sort of violent voter suppression I saw here.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

karl_schlagenfu 7y ago

Which is ironic because some of the reasons Brits want to leave is because of the French, e.g. why does the EU parliament have to spend 100million+ EUR to have the parliament in Strasbourg for 3 days of the month?

r3bl 7y ago
It's almost as if the EU has 28 members, none of which should have an authoritative say in any of the things the bloc does. Want something changed? Build a support within a bloc. Don't pretend your opinion is any more valuable than an opinion of any of the other 27 members.
- jessaustin 7y ago
  Don't pretend your opinion is any more valuable than an opinion of any of the other 27 members. I'm an outsider on this, but I could imagine this as an effective quote to replay in any "leave" campaign. Can we really imagine UK (or Germany) ever being relegated to having only the influence of e.g. Slovenia?
  - r3bl 7y ago
    Countries don't have direct representation, political blocs do. Each country picks its own members (at minimum, six of them in the European Parliament), those members congregate into political blocs, those blocs make proposals, build a majority within EUs regulatory bodies, and adopt changes. The difference between Germany and the UK is that German parties recognize this process and follow it. UK's (right-wing) parties, on the other hand, go on a tantrum locally whenever something doesn't go their way on an EU level, because they believe they're in a privileged position and that their vote means more within the EU. It doesn't. My aim isn't to convince "leave" campaign that they should stay. On the contrary, I agree with the comment that said good riddance. Their tantrums stopped the progress of the EU far too many times. If you think that the electoral college in the US is terrible, please, look up how Boris Johnson got to the position of the Prime Minister. The process was so undemocratic than it can't be considered anything but a complete joke. Brexit will finally happen, EU will move forward, and we'll all sit back and watch the UK's economy crash and burn. In over two years, they haven't even figured out what Brexit actually means, so the thoughts of them figuring it out within the next four months is laughable at best. There's not gonna be enough popcorns in the world for that shitshow.

seren 7y ago

Even if I can understand some Brexit fatigue, I believe this is a short-sighted view, even if they are out of the EU, geography won't change, so the UK will have to keep cooperating with continental Europe. A weak UK, that would become the pawn of another super power, would be bad news, for both UK and EU. I think this is sad that UK is leaving but no matter what, they will remain our ally and partner.

HenryBemis 7y ago
UK has been actively acting on USA's interests for decades, nothing new here. I am a foreigner living in the and it saddens me, but you can't keep someone in a union by force. UK economy will probably get damaged but it will recover (in a couple of decades) and we will all have to thank a) David Cameron, b) BoJo, c) the voters of "Leave" for that.
- cat199 7y ago
  > UK has been actively acting on USA's interests for decades can't one say this isn't the other way around? bretton woods was basically a joint us+uk project, most macroeconomic policy & related geopolitics in the west (including EU) post wwII stems from this.. us is basically fighting iran overtly or covertly on behalf of the UK, and vietnam was massively in the french interest as some 'small' examples..
  - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
    That's a very charitable view. Bretton Woods was the US (mostly Harry White's) rejection of Keynes' plan and the best that could then be agreed. As a result it has a very US flavour. Not especially surprising considering most nations were near bankruptcy at the time with the sole exception of the USA. What resulted in the shape of the IMF and World bank was far different to envisaged and provided none of the speculative and recession control. History has mostly backed up Keynes' opinion, though it worked sort-of reasonably until Nixon abandoned the gold standard. Edit: Far more of the last 40 years geopolitics and economics stems from the oil crisis and the chaos of the immediately following years than Bretton Woods.

hnhg 7y ago

Maybe just sabotage some federal aspirations but also did a lot to enhance and enlarge the free market aspects. What did France meaningfully contribute so we have a baseline for comparison?

walligatorrr 7y ago
France was a founding member of ECSC proposed by Robert Schuman, french prime minister, created by the Paris treaty and regarded as the premise of nowadays European union and expanded to up to 28 countries. France played an instrumental/leading role in building the very idea of a community of nations in europe. The contributions of that country toward European institutions are literally countless, but let’s name a few major ones: a shared currency (€), schengen area and absolute freedom of movement for citizens, goods, services and capital (none of which UK took part of). No one can sensibly deny France contributions to pretty much any regulation, judicial/defense/scholar/research/scientific cooperations. I’m not saying UK played absolutely no role in building these institutions, but they’ve always displayed some reluctancy for further integration. Just fyi, France and Germany have been compensating since the 70s the budget contribution UK refused to make.
- krona 7y ago
  building the very idea of a community of nations in europe Like the League of Nations? And every other (defunt) supranational institution all the way back to Napoleon?
  - landryraccoon 7y ago
    Your point is that since it wasn’t able to work before, it’ll never work? I mean, Leonardo Da Vinci wasn’t able to build a working flying machine, does that mean the Wrights were dumb to think they would succeed where Leonardo failed?
    - krona 7y ago
      If the wrights had taken Da Vinci's design and rebuilt the invention without understanding why it failed the first time, absolutely.

tomxor 7y ago

> They want to leave ? Good riddance. As citizens at least, it's pretty well understood that in majority we don't want to leave, one half definitely doesn't, the other half are mostly a combination of naive, manipulated and coerced based on false claims and social media, some portion are not manipulated or naive but have settled on some narrow view of a very large and complex decision... and finally the minority (the small number of racists and xenophobes you inevitably get in any country who want to cut off the rest of the world and built walls or some shit). We've been fucked over because we let the vulnerable portion of the other half get manipulated. The only valid vote was no, because the premise was entirely flawed... it's like having a referendum for "Do you want lower taxes" without saying exactly how, but "leave the EU" is even more complex not only in how but what that even means and what that affects which is so broad, it's like taking a huge list of very specific not necessarily related things putting them in a bag and then saying "you wana change this stuff in undefined ways" - fuck no, if you want to watch the world burn at least be up front about it.

Zenst 7y ago
Yes the mindset of racist/xenophobes and small minded people often take a small outliner and project that upon the group as a whole. I feel you may be on the verge of an epiphany.
_Understated_ 7y ago
> it's pretty well understood that in majority we don't want to leave, the other half are mostly a combination of naive, manipulated and coerced based on false claims and social media... What? There was a vote. A vote where everyone elligible had the chance to voice their opinion and the majority (albeit slim) said "we want out". As for the slur of being naieve and manipulated that's bullshit (from my standpoint anyway). You seem to be referring to people getting their news from social media... if that's their source then hell-mend them. Social media is an echo chamber. It's not designed for two-sided debates. WRT to the false claims: If anyone actually believes that a politician has their interests at heart then they're delusional. You seem to just be bitter that you (I assume) voted to stay in... I suppose you want another one until you get the result you would prefer!

Zenst 7y ago

I will agree the UK has never really embraced the whole EU project as it has become. I also agree that in many votes, the UK has been the stumbling block and with that did anybody in the UK and those wanting to keep the UK in the EU ever asked themselves - what is best for the EU? I did and that is why I voted leave myself - better for the EU and the UK. That was my reason for voting as I did. Equally, many area's in the EU that need fixing and by the UK leaving, those would stick out and get fixed. Case in point, the UK initially asked for reform within the EU and got palmed off with some concessions and we had a vote on the back of that. Now after the vote - Tusk et all have said, the EU needs reform and Macron is driving for that reform. Ironically that reform won't happen or even start to be discussed, until the UK leaves. I often get people who go on about the EU and how they are pro-EU and demanding a second vote (probably a third....until they get the result they want...) but if you ask them - what has the UK done for the EU? They stumble. But as always - comedy foretold the whole story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE

toyg 7y ago
This is a bit uncharitable. The UK helped the EU be more dynamic than it otherwise might have been, avoiding a certain French big-state mindset that could have seen eurobureaucracy really run riot on national laws. It definitely attracted capital investments from across the globe into the EU market, and it relieved some of the unemployment pressure in poorer countries thanks to a very dynamic labor market. Obviously there have been sore points (complete opposition to real federalism, coordinated defence, and fighting dirty money / tax evasion), but overall both the UK and EU members have benefited from working together. Brexit is a lose-lose scenario that we will all have to endure rather than enjoy, whichever side of the fence we sit on.
- MrBuddyCasino 7y ago
  > avoiding a certain French big-state mindset that could have seen eurobureaucracy really run riot on national laws Germany is not really onboard with that either, but I agree a more extreme counter-weight would have been helpful.
7y ago

pimmen 7y ago

I’m Swedish and we are one of the allies of the UK in that we fought together to grant each other exceptions. I would love for us to become more integrated with the rest of the continent.

julienfr112 7y ago

As also a French, I think the French are expecting too much from the EU and that this hope is vain because most of the other countries are quite happy the way EU is right now (and as such, they don't care if it is stuck by Brexit or whatever).

craftinator 7y ago

As a french, you're great dipped in both ketchup and milkshakes. Dig that sweet and salty!

dang 7y ago
Please don't do this here.

smcl 7y ago

"They" is a minority of the British population

kryptiskt 7y ago

As a Swede, I'd like to keep the UK in the EU as an ally against creeping federalism. Luckily it seems that nobody outside the Benelux is all that keen on Macron's ideas.

Lio 7y ago

Well you can't really say that the UK was welcomed into the EU (or EEC) with open arms in the first place. France blocked the UK's entry three times. So there's probably always been some mutual distrust.