6 ms·

I often feel like learning things with Anki puts memories into the wrong part of the brain. It happens way too often that I can perfectly recall something from

by s9w 7y ago

I often feel like learning things with Anki puts memories into the wrong part of the brain. It happens way too often that I can perfectly recall something from Anki (on a PC or phone), but have a lot of trouble recalling it 'in action'.

asdkhadsj 7y ago
Interesting - have you had any thoughts as to how to improve this? Eg, to get the items into the correct part of your brain?
- jacobush 7y ago
  The age old technique of learning while walking around somewhere - then you can recall your memories by imagining where you were on that walk. (I think it's called Memory Palace.)
- FromHoiPolloi 7y ago
  Depends on 'the action'. One technique would be to include context in the flashcard. Sth along the concept of Implementation Intention: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implementation_intention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implementation_intention
Engineering-MD 7y ago
This is why multi modal learning is often recommended (learn in different forms to not over optimise for one method).
DeusExMachina 7y ago
It might be becasue you are just training recognition and not production. I use Anki to study Russian, with great results, following Gabriel Werner's Fluent Forever. In the book, he teaches how to learn the words and the grammar of a language using Anki. One of the fundamental ideas is to both create recognition and production cards. The recognition cards are the ones with a word in your target language, of which you have to remember the meaning. This is what most people use SRSs for. The production cards instead show you an image, or a sentence with blanks, and you have to come up with the correct word by yourself. Before reading the book, I have never seen anyone using the latter, but it makes sense. You have to train your brain not only to recognize the information, but also to take it out when needed, and those are two separate paths. [Update: fixed the book's author name]
- cpursley 7y ago
  I'm also studying Russian. Are you using the Fluent Forever app along with the book? How are you storing your anki cards (anki app or something else).
  - scottlocklin 7y ago
    What I'd really like isn't "I am studying Y using X" -I'd like "I am fluent to level Z in Y from using X." I've used some spaced repetition/Anki stuff to put an initial dent in Portuguese. Compared to learning French the old fashioned way of practice with humans and repetition; it's a huge basket of fail for me. Virtually no useful results. Stopped with Anki, moved to Portugal; zero lessons, but making some attempts with the locals with a shitty phrasebook and dictionary -I actually got decent results. Maybe you can call that "spaced repetition." In which case everything is spaced repetition. I believe people can remember lots of facts via flashcards, as I've done this myself in the past. I'm not so sure it works on languages.
  - DeusExMachina 7y ago
    I am just following the book and using Anki as he describes, creating cards with images from Google and sound files from Forvo. The only advice that I find a bit rushed is to read books with the audio after you learn the top 1.000 words and half of your grammar book. That's still too hard for me. But I can listen to this Russian-only podcast and undertand almost everything: https://russianpodcast.eu https://russianpodcast.eu
- DecayingOrganic 7y ago
  What you describe is intentional vocabulary acquisition. However I'd like to point out that such words learned via this method consist only of a small portion of the vocabularies of both native speakers and L2 learners. Majority of vocabulary comes through incidental vocabulary acquisition [0]. Such methods of learning the language would make you a practitioner of the Skill-Building Hypothesis in your SLA (Second Language Acquisition) journey. Often which methodology to follow is decided unknowingly by the L2 learners, since the sources they utilize often dictate the methodology. I believe it'd be my duty to inform you there's also a competing theory in the SLA field that you may fancy, called the Comprehensible Input Theory. [0]: https://sci-hub.tw/10.2307/747758 https://sci-hub.tw/10.2307/747758
naz 7y ago
I also experience this phenomenon. In learning a language, I like to think of Anki as the primer stage in learning a word. I have to encounter and recognize that word in the wild for the memory to be fully solidified. I'll often go back to my Anki card and add a note of where I encountered it IRL, and that usually makes that card stick for good.
- cpursley 7y ago
  Yeah, me too. I try to save a new word every day that I heard in the wild. Trying to memorize random words that I didn't pick up from direct use is nearly impossible (for me, at least).
- hombre_fatal 7y ago
  When I first tried expanding my vocabulary in a foreign language, I made the classic mistake of just logging word + definition. I've since transitioned to rely on actual usage examples from books / in the wild. It's really the only way to actually learn, imo. Else you'll learn that a word means "wide" but have no idea how to apply it. With usage examples, you train yourself to realize you might use this word to describe a wide road, but this other word to refer to a thick stick. And the correct word starts coming to mind in the wild, incidentally, without a deliberate step to understand the difference. Definition alone is basically useless.
- AlchemistCamp 7y ago
  Using SRS for memorizing words is usually a mistake unless they truly are discrete pieces of information and map one to one to something you already know how to express. 99% of the time you're better off doing extensive reading. SRS works well for technical vocabulary, though. From my podcast on SRS I linked in another comment: > [00:11:27] These SRS flash card apps are very good for learning vocabulary and depending on what's included in the flashcards, they could be for grammar as well. But the problem for a language learner is that it's de-contextualized. So say if you just study vocabulary words, then they're going to be a lot of things that you'll miss like collocations. You won't know which words are normal to use with which other words. For example, in English, if someone asks, "How are you?" it would be completely normal to answer, "pretty good". It would also be fairly normal to answer, "absolutely fantastic". But it would be strange to answer that you're doing "absolutely good". There's no grammatical reason. It's just not something that English speakers tend to say. > [00:12:17] And there are many, many, many language features that are like this. There are also questions of word boundaries. For example, in English, the word "nose" refers to a person's nose or a dog's nose, but not every kind of animal. For example, an elephant in English doesn't have a nose. It has a trunk. In Japanese, the same word, 鼻 (hana), is for a person's nose and the elephant's nose. So the question is, what exactly does "nose" mean? Well, really tedious language teacher could explain this for every single word that you study, or even put this on the back of every flash card for every word that you're reviewing. But, it's not going to be efficient. You'll spend so much time worrying about edge cases for every single word that you're learning that you're actually not going to get anywhere. Extensive reading avoids all of these problems. It feels slower than cramming words at the beginning, but over time, it's a much faster way to build a functional vocabulary.
sshillo 7y ago
After trying to learn a few different languages the best cycle for me seems to be, remember the word in anki, then in more controlled real word setting like a class or language exchange try to use that word in conversation. If you're not willing to do that last step, I wouldn't even bother with anki if you're using it for languages
gnode 7y ago
Memory in the brain is very connection based. Spaced repetition is a good technique for strengthening connections, but not for structuring it usefully. I find the best thing is to make as many connections as possible to and amongst the things you want to learn. For vocabulary: find patterns in the spelling of the word, draw the word, use the word in a rhyme, make a joke about the word, etc. Also, connect the words together such that you can traverse a network of them in your head.
Narretz 7y ago
It's definitely "learned" in a very specific context. For example, I learned all US states and their capitals for a Pub Quiz. That means cards with state/capital. Then at some point there was a quiz question called "Which state capital is the last if sorted alphabetically?" And I couldn't answer it because it didn't fit my learning pattern.
- 1123581321 7y ago
  I thought your comment was interesting so I posed this question to my children (10 and 12.) It took them about 15 minutes to answer. Assuming an adult might be twice as fast, that’s still a long time to answer a written quiz. So, fair point. However, they had an easier time answering other questions about extreme state capitals that had more to do with geography, so I don’t think rote memory methods should be entirely faulted.
edtechdev 7y ago
That's due to encoding specificity. You aren't just learning the 'thing' but the context in which you learned the thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encoding_specificity_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encoding_specificity_principle It's better to learn things in or close to the contexts in which you will use them. That's the heart of situated learning / problem-based learning / simulations, etc: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situated_learning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situated_learning

by s9w 7y ago

asdkhadsj 7y ago

Interesting - have you had any thoughts as to how to improve this? Eg, to get the items into the correct part of your brain?

jacobush 7y ago
The age old technique of learning while walking around somewhere - then you can recall your memories by imagining where you were on that walk. (I think it's called Memory Palace.)
FromHoiPolloi 7y ago
Depends on 'the action'. One technique would be to include context in the flashcard. Sth along the concept of Implementation Intention: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implementation_intention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implementation_intention

Engineering-MD 7y ago

This is why multi modal learning is often recommended (learn in different forms to not over optimise for one method).

DeusExMachina 7y ago

It might be becasue you are just training recognition and not production. I use Anki to study Russian, with great results, following Gabriel Werner's Fluent Forever. In the book, he teaches how to learn the words and the grammar of a language using Anki. One of the fundamental ideas is to both create recognition and production cards. The recognition cards are the ones with a word in your target language, of which you have to remember the meaning. This is what most people use SRSs for. The production cards instead show you an image, or a sentence with blanks, and you have to come up with the correct word by yourself. Before reading the book, I have never seen anyone using the latter, but it makes sense. You have to train your brain not only to recognize the information, but also to take it out when needed, and those are two separate paths. [Update: fixed the book's author name]

cpursley 7y ago
I'm also studying Russian. Are you using the Fluent Forever app along with the book? How are you storing your anki cards (anki app or something else).
- scottlocklin 7y ago
  What I'd really like isn't "I am studying Y using X" -I'd like "I am fluent to level Z in Y from using X." I've used some spaced repetition/Anki stuff to put an initial dent in Portuguese. Compared to learning French the old fashioned way of practice with humans and repetition; it's a huge basket of fail for me. Virtually no useful results. Stopped with Anki, moved to Portugal; zero lessons, but making some attempts with the locals with a shitty phrasebook and dictionary -I actually got decent results. Maybe you can call that "spaced repetition." In which case everything is spaced repetition. I believe people can remember lots of facts via flashcards, as I've done this myself in the past. I'm not so sure it works on languages.
- DeusExMachina 7y ago
  I am just following the book and using Anki as he describes, creating cards with images from Google and sound files from Forvo. The only advice that I find a bit rushed is to read books with the audio after you learn the top 1.000 words and half of your grammar book. That's still too hard for me. But I can listen to this Russian-only podcast and undertand almost everything: https://russianpodcast.eu https://russianpodcast.eu
DecayingOrganic 7y ago
What you describe is intentional vocabulary acquisition. However I'd like to point out that such words learned via this method consist only of a small portion of the vocabularies of both native speakers and L2 learners. Majority of vocabulary comes through incidental vocabulary acquisition [0]. Such methods of learning the language would make you a practitioner of the Skill-Building Hypothesis in your SLA (Second Language Acquisition) journey. Often which methodology to follow is decided unknowingly by the L2 learners, since the sources they utilize often dictate the methodology. I believe it'd be my duty to inform you there's also a competing theory in the SLA field that you may fancy, called the Comprehensible Input Theory. [0]: https://sci-hub.tw/10.2307/747758 https://sci-hub.tw/10.2307/747758

naz 7y ago

I also experience this phenomenon. In learning a language, I like to think of Anki as the primer stage in learning a word. I have to encounter and recognize that word in the wild for the memory to be fully solidified. I'll often go back to my Anki card and add a note of where I encountered it IRL, and that usually makes that card stick for good.

cpursley 7y ago
Yeah, me too. I try to save a new word every day that I heard in the wild. Trying to memorize random words that I didn't pick up from direct use is nearly impossible (for me, at least).
hombre_fatal 7y ago
When I first tried expanding my vocabulary in a foreign language, I made the classic mistake of just logging word + definition. I've since transitioned to rely on actual usage examples from books / in the wild. It's really the only way to actually learn, imo. Else you'll learn that a word means "wide" but have no idea how to apply it. With usage examples, you train yourself to realize you might use this word to describe a wide road, but this other word to refer to a thick stick. And the correct word starts coming to mind in the wild, incidentally, without a deliberate step to understand the difference. Definition alone is basically useless.
AlchemistCamp 7y ago
Using SRS for memorizing words is usually a mistake unless they truly are discrete pieces of information and map one to one to something you already know how to express. 99% of the time you're better off doing extensive reading. SRS works well for technical vocabulary, though. From my podcast on SRS I linked in another comment: > [00:11:27] These SRS flash card apps are very good for learning vocabulary and depending on what's included in the flashcards, they could be for grammar as well. But the problem for a language learner is that it's de-contextualized. So say if you just study vocabulary words, then they're going to be a lot of things that you'll miss like collocations. You won't know which words are normal to use with which other words. For example, in English, if someone asks, "How are you?" it would be completely normal to answer, "pretty good". It would also be fairly normal to answer, "absolutely fantastic". But it would be strange to answer that you're doing "absolutely good". There's no grammatical reason. It's just not something that English speakers tend to say. > [00:12:17] And there are many, many, many language features that are like this. There are also questions of word boundaries. For example, in English, the word "nose" refers to a person's nose or a dog's nose, but not every kind of animal. For example, an elephant in English doesn't have a nose. It has a trunk. In Japanese, the same word, 鼻 (hana), is for a person's nose and the elephant's nose. So the question is, what exactly does "nose" mean? Well, really tedious language teacher could explain this for every single word that you study, or even put this on the back of every flash card for every word that you're reviewing. But, it's not going to be efficient. You'll spend so much time worrying about edge cases for every single word that you're learning that you're actually not going to get anywhere. Extensive reading avoids all of these problems. It feels slower than cramming words at the beginning, but over time, it's a much faster way to build a functional vocabulary.

sshillo 7y ago

After trying to learn a few different languages the best cycle for me seems to be, remember the word in anki, then in more controlled real word setting like a class or language exchange try to use that word in conversation. If you're not willing to do that last step, I wouldn't even bother with anki if you're using it for languages

gnode 7y ago

Memory in the brain is very connection based. Spaced repetition is a good technique for strengthening connections, but not for structuring it usefully. I find the best thing is to make as many connections as possible to and amongst the things you want to learn. For vocabulary: find patterns in the spelling of the word, draw the word, use the word in a rhyme, make a joke about the word, etc. Also, connect the words together such that you can traverse a network of them in your head.

Narretz 7y ago

It's definitely "learned" in a very specific context. For example, I learned all US states and their capitals for a Pub Quiz. That means cards with state/capital. Then at some point there was a quiz question called "Which state capital is the last if sorted alphabetically?" And I couldn't answer it because it didn't fit my learning pattern.

1123581321 7y ago
I thought your comment was interesting so I posed this question to my children (10 and 12.) It took them about 15 minutes to answer. Assuming an adult might be twice as fast, that’s still a long time to answer a written quiz. So, fair point. However, they had an easier time answering other questions about extreme state capitals that had more to do with geography, so I don’t think rote memory methods should be entirely faulted.

edtechdev 7y ago

That's due to encoding specificity. You aren't just learning the 'thing' but the context in which you learned the thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encoding_specificity_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encoding_specificity_principle It's better to learn things in or close to the contexts in which you will use them. That's the heart of situated learning / problem-based learning / simulations, etc: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situated_learning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situated_learning