8 ms·

For the purposes of storing carbon, I don't think we'll get away from the fact that a large amount the carbon from fossil fuels that we have burned will likely

For the purposes of storing carbon, I don't think we'll get away from the fact that a large amount the carbon from fossil fuels that we have burned will likely have to be stored under ground again eventually. I find it strange to think about wooden buildings made out of pine; pine is an invasive species in Southern Africa. The effect of for example eucalyptus on the topsoil layer is as bad as full scale agricultural tilling. There is an argument that agriculture is a better future for this part of the world and there would certainly need to be better options here than wooden buildings. Maybe some sort of carbon polymer concrete mixture?

quixoticelixer- 7y ago
> The effect of for example eucalyptus on the topsoil layer is as bad as full scale agricultural tilling. In what way, do you have a source? I very much doubt this is true.
- masklinn 7y ago
  Eucalypts are known to not be great for topsoil quality, degrading and depleting soil (especially as they're not nutrient fixers): > In a forest environment, SOM originates mainly from litterfall and litter decomposition. It is well known that the litter quality of eucalypts is low (Woods 1974). Eucalypt leaf litter contains large amounts of phenolics (Bernhard-Reversat et al. 2001) which are antibiotic and anti-feeding agent for invertebrate and vertebrate fauna (Waterman and Mole 1994; Harborne 1997). Eucalypt litter quality leads to low biological activity and results in a low litter decomposition rate in eucalypt plantations. The result of using eucalypts is definitely mixed at best (https://www.aimspress.com/fileOther/PDF/agriculture/agrfood-01-00175.pdf https://www.aimspress.com/fileOther/PDF/agriculture/agrfood-...) but at the end GP is probably excessive, eucalypts are inferior to almost any other tree species for soil quality but they're not as bad as agricultural land: > Our results indicate that soils in eucalyptus stands surrounding Ethiopian Orthodox church forests are more acidic and Eucalyptus may have some additional drawbacks that are not considered in this study. Though increased levels of organic matter should function have lower levels of organic matter and nutrients than soils in adjacent indigenous forest. However, there is also evidence that eucalyptus plantations exhibit higher organic matter and nutrient levels in comparison to nearby agricultural land, and no significant decrease in soil pH.
chr1 7y ago
According to [1] the terrestrial biosphere contains 2000 gigatons of carbon combined oil and gas reserves contain only 370 gigatons. 28% of earth surface is taken by deserts, and if we simply restored ecosystem there it would take 560 gigatons of carbon. So we do not need to store any amount under ground, we only need enough people to make irrigating deserts profitable. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_cycle https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_cycle
- 0xfaded 7y ago
  Reminds me of my favorite freeciv strategy, irrigate the deserts, effect global warming, attack.
- danieldk 7y ago
  So we do not need to store any amount under ground, we only need enough people to make irrigating deserts profitable. In an ideal free market, perhaps, yes. In the real world, people will just move/flee from dry areas. As the global temperature rises and more regions of Africa and America become uninhabitable, people will just slowly migrate north (or perhaps partially south America). If you thought that we had a refugee crisis, just wait a couple of decades.
  - chr1 7y ago
    Fair enough, it won't happen automatically, but maybe instead of wasting money on subsidising biofuels, building non-effective renewable installations, funding additional border patrol or helping refugees, the rich countries can focus on helping the poor countries to build irrigation infrastructure and to become rich.
    - bluGill 7y ago
      irrigation isn't something they will build without reason. Thus biofuels encourage irrigation.
      - chr1 7y ago
southerntofu 7y ago
> The effect of for example eucalyptus on the topsoil layer is as bad as full scale agricultural tilling. This is true for any monoculture. We need to take into account how plants interact with their environment and fellow plants to preserve the humus (the topsoil layer whose microorganisms are essential to plant life). This is what permaculture is about. There's not a single plant that we're going to find that we can grow everywhere and it's going to save the environment.

quixoticelixer- 7y ago

> The effect of for example eucalyptus on the topsoil layer is as bad as full scale agricultural tilling. In what way, do you have a source? I very much doubt this is true.

masklinn 7y ago
Eucalypts are known to not be great for topsoil quality, degrading and depleting soil (especially as they're not nutrient fixers): > In a forest environment, SOM originates mainly from litterfall and litter decomposition. It is well known that the litter quality of eucalypts is low (Woods 1974). Eucalypt leaf litter contains large amounts of phenolics (Bernhard-Reversat et al. 2001) which are antibiotic and anti-feeding agent for invertebrate and vertebrate fauna (Waterman and Mole 1994; Harborne 1997). Eucalypt litter quality leads to low biological activity and results in a low litter decomposition rate in eucalypt plantations. The result of using eucalypts is definitely mixed at best (https://www.aimspress.com/fileOther/PDF/agriculture/agrfood-01-00175.pdf https://www.aimspress.com/fileOther/PDF/agriculture/agrfood-...) but at the end GP is probably excessive, eucalypts are inferior to almost any other tree species for soil quality but they're not as bad as agricultural land: > Our results indicate that soils in eucalyptus stands surrounding Ethiopian Orthodox church forests are more acidic and Eucalyptus may have some additional drawbacks that are not considered in this study. Though increased levels of organic matter should function have lower levels of organic matter and nutrients than soils in adjacent indigenous forest. However, there is also evidence that eucalyptus plantations exhibit higher organic matter and nutrient levels in comparison to nearby agricultural land, and no significant decrease in soil pH.

chr1 7y ago

According to [1] the terrestrial biosphere contains 2000 gigatons of carbon combined oil and gas reserves contain only 370 gigatons. 28% of earth surface is taken by deserts, and if we simply restored ecosystem there it would take 560 gigatons of carbon. So we do not need to store any amount under ground, we only need enough people to make irrigating deserts profitable. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_cycle https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_cycle

0xfaded 7y ago
Reminds me of my favorite freeciv strategy, irrigate the deserts, effect global warming, attack.
danieldk 7y ago
So we do not need to store any amount under ground, we only need enough people to make irrigating deserts profitable. In an ideal free market, perhaps, yes. In the real world, people will just move/flee from dry areas. As the global temperature rises and more regions of Africa and America become uninhabitable, people will just slowly migrate north (or perhaps partially south America). If you thought that we had a refugee crisis, just wait a couple of decades.
- chr1 7y ago
  Fair enough, it won't happen automatically, but maybe instead of wasting money on subsidising biofuels, building non-effective renewable installations, funding additional border patrol or helping refugees, the rich countries can focus on helping the poor countries to build irrigation infrastructure and to become rich.
  - bluGill 7y ago
    irrigation isn't something they will build without reason. Thus biofuels encourage irrigation.
    - chr1 7y ago

southerntofu 7y ago

> The effect of for example eucalyptus on the topsoil layer is as bad as full scale agricultural tilling. This is true for any monoculture. We need to take into account how plants interact with their environment and fellow plants to preserve the humus (the topsoil layer whose microorganisms are essential to plant life). This is what permaculture is about. There's not a single plant that we're going to find that we can grow everywhere and it's going to save the environment.