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But that is ... wrong. The US cops have talked about escalating risks for years but US cops haven't faced actual escalating dangers. One can track the actual d

But that is ... wrong. The US cops have talked about escalating risks for years but US cops haven't faced actual escalating dangers. One can track the actual danger faced by police and it has been declining. The problem is the average citizen gets their information from TV dramas where cops indeed constantly face dangers. headline: "Once again: police work is NOT getting more dangerous" https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/10/02/once-again-police-work-is-not-getting-more-dangerous/?utm_term=.7855e1b0389b https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/10/02/...

ajxs 7y ago
It's disingenuous to ask us to accept this data alone as a reason to disregard the risks that American police face in the course of their work. Whether their job is safer today than at the height of the so-called 'crack epidemic' is irrelevant to the reality of the day to day risks that they face. For starters, this data doesn't include the numbers of police non-fatally harmed in the course of their work. Even still, their risk of being fatally shot is 5x higher on average than the general citizen.
- donw 7y ago
  True, but I think the general idea is not that police work isn't dangerous -- it is! -- but rather, that it has become less dangerous over the decades. I don't have an opinion on that, having not looked at the data, but it is entirely plausible.
  - weaksauce 7y ago
    i mean cops do have a fairly dangerous job but they also by no means the most or even comparatively that dangerous a job. if you look at the stats being a roofer is 1.5x more dangerous. being a delivery driver is about the same danger as a cop. industrial machine installer/repair/maintenance workers have a slightly higher fatality rate per 100k compared to cops. stoking the fears of the average citizen to be fearful of cops likely increases their risk of death on the job which is all this does.
    - donw 7y ago
      Sure, maybe? Haven't looked at the data myself, ergo no well-founded opinion. :)
- joe_the_user 7y ago
  Police work is less dangerous than many common occupations in the US but it is indeed still dangerous. The question is whether this level of danger is a sufficient to justify police tactics that severely endanger civilians such as no-knock raids - factors that make "SWATing" so dangerous for the average person. The further factor here is that the false belief that there's an armed camp ready to attack cops instantly with automatic rifles can give one the distorted impression that no-knock and related tactics will save lives. However, the reality is there are few people ready to knowingly engage the cops (since even if you win, you lose against the authorities) but there citizens who have guns ready for persons known who might be breaking into their home and so SWAT tactics can be as likely to draw fire and casualties as to avoid them in the real world. And kill innocent of course.
  - ajxs 7y ago
    Here's some data here that seems to differ somewhat from what was originally posted: https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/police-officers-2014.htm https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/police-officers-2014.htm I would never be an advocate for the kind of no-knock raids the article is describing. I'm not addressing that by contesting the use of those statistics. My point is more that _any_ risk of getting shot in the line of duty changes the entire playing field. Just because it's declining doesn't mean that it's insignificant. That being said, as said before I'm not advocating for the kind of overwhelmingly violent responses that SWATting describes.
lowdose 7y ago
From the other side of the pond it looks like the US police dresses up like a military unit with supplies from past wars. SWAT teams that show up in war tanks. I haven't seen many cop series lately but my impression is most police actors in hollywood don't dress up like John Rambo in fighting in the jungle.
- no_wizard 7y ago
  Because they are: https://www.journal-news.com/news/local/local-police-boost-arsenals-with-surplus-military-gear/O3EKiKe7Li4t1WfIewVyeI/ https://www.journal-news.com/news/local/local-police-boost-a... https://www.springfieldnewssun.com/news/crime--law/police-expand-arsenals-with-surplus-army-gear/iGkcwHOr7e9feILGGJVL6O/ https://www.springfieldnewssun.com/news/crime--law/police-ex... https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/15/local-law-enforcement-agencies-surplus-military-equipment/10286485/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/15/local-... https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/09/police-military-surplus-purchase-debate/10221551/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/09/police... In part, this is driven by programs (as mentioned in the USA today article) where the local police forces can get the equipment itself at no cost (they only pay the maintenance, cost of shipping the equipment, and cost of storing the equipment, or any other local accommodations; all of which are a bargain compared to its actual cost)
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
closeparen 7y ago
How could you distinguish "the situation isn't getting any more dangerous" from "risk mitigation tactics are working"?
- joe_the_user 7y ago
  One factor is that the decline in police deaths has tracked the decline in murders overall. If you had successful risk mitigation, civilian deaths would be going up.

ajxs 7y ago

It's disingenuous to ask us to accept this data alone as a reason to disregard the risks that American police face in the course of their work. Whether their job is safer today than at the height of the so-called 'crack epidemic' is irrelevant to the reality of the day to day risks that they face. For starters, this data doesn't include the numbers of police non-fatally harmed in the course of their work. Even still, their risk of being fatally shot is 5x higher on average than the general citizen.

donw 7y ago
True, but I think the general idea is not that police work isn't dangerous -- it is! -- but rather, that it has become less dangerous over the decades. I don't have an opinion on that, having not looked at the data, but it is entirely plausible.
- weaksauce 7y ago
  i mean cops do have a fairly dangerous job but they also by no means the most or even comparatively that dangerous a job. if you look at the stats being a roofer is 1.5x more dangerous. being a delivery driver is about the same danger as a cop. industrial machine installer/repair/maintenance workers have a slightly higher fatality rate per 100k compared to cops. stoking the fears of the average citizen to be fearful of cops likely increases their risk of death on the job which is all this does.
  - donw 7y ago
    Sure, maybe? Haven't looked at the data myself, ergo no well-founded opinion. :)
joe_the_user 7y ago
Police work is less dangerous than many common occupations in the US but it is indeed still dangerous. The question is whether this level of danger is a sufficient to justify police tactics that severely endanger civilians such as no-knock raids - factors that make "SWATing" so dangerous for the average person. The further factor here is that the false belief that there's an armed camp ready to attack cops instantly with automatic rifles can give one the distorted impression that no-knock and related tactics will save lives. However, the reality is there are few people ready to knowingly engage the cops (since even if you win, you lose against the authorities) but there citizens who have guns ready for persons known who might be breaking into their home and so SWAT tactics can be as likely to draw fire and casualties as to avoid them in the real world. And kill innocent of course.
- ajxs 7y ago
  Here's some data here that seems to differ somewhat from what was originally posted: https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/police-officers-2014.htm https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/police-officers-2014.htm I would never be an advocate for the kind of no-knock raids the article is describing. I'm not addressing that by contesting the use of those statistics. My point is more that _any_ risk of getting shot in the line of duty changes the entire playing field. Just because it's declining doesn't mean that it's insignificant. That being said, as said before I'm not advocating for the kind of overwhelmingly violent responses that SWATting describes.

lowdose 7y ago

From the other side of the pond it looks like the US police dresses up like a military unit with supplies from past wars. SWAT teams that show up in war tanks. I haven't seen many cop series lately but my impression is most police actors in hollywood don't dress up like John Rambo in fighting in the jungle.

no_wizard 7y ago
Because they are: https://www.journal-news.com/news/local/local-police-boost-arsenals-with-surplus-military-gear/O3EKiKe7Li4t1WfIewVyeI/ https://www.journal-news.com/news/local/local-police-boost-a... https://www.springfieldnewssun.com/news/crime--law/police-expand-arsenals-with-surplus-army-gear/iGkcwHOr7e9feILGGJVL6O/ https://www.springfieldnewssun.com/news/crime--law/police-ex... https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/15/local-law-enforcement-agencies-surplus-military-equipment/10286485/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/15/local-... https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/09/police-military-surplus-purchase-debate/10221551/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/09/police... In part, this is driven by programs (as mentioned in the USA today article) where the local police forces can get the equipment itself at no cost (they only pay the maintenance, cost of shipping the equipment, and cost of storing the equipment, or any other local accommodations; all of which are a bargain compared to its actual cost)

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

closeparen 7y ago

How could you distinguish "the situation isn't getting any more dangerous" from "risk mitigation tactics are working"?

joe_the_user 7y ago
One factor is that the decline in police deaths has tracked the decline in murders overall. If you had successful risk mitigation, civilian deaths would be going up.