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I think North America really needs to re-evaluate this concept of tips. The rules of what to tip and when are intentionally vague because it's a sensitive subje

I think North America really needs to re-evaluate this concept of tips. The rules of what to tip and when are intentionally vague because it's a sensitive subject. We should move to "fair pay", that includes slightly increased prices, and do away with tips for most services. It's so common that tips don't mean what the consumer thinks it means. Restaurants and bars that pool tips and share them with all staff.[1] Restaurant owners that try to keep some tips and only pay out a percentage to the staff.[2] Casinos pool tips too so the dealer doesn't get to keep the money you gave him directly.[3] I get asked for tips at Starbucks. I get asked for tips when I do takeout food from the local restaurant. I get asked for tips at the buffet restaurant. The pizza driver gets a delivery charge AND a tip! Let's clean it up and make it fair for the servers and the consumers. [1] https://www.restaurantscanada.org/industry-news/aware-ontarios-tip-pooling-rules-regulations/ https://www.restaurantscanada.org/industry-news/aware-ontari... [2] https://www.restaurantbusinessonline.com/advice-guy/can-restaurant-owners-share-tip-pool https://www.restaurantbusinessonline.com/advice-guy/can-rest... [3] https://www.businessinsider.com/wynn-tip-sharing-2011-6 https://www.businessinsider.com/wynn-tip-sharing-2011-6

gambiting 7y ago
The thing that bothered me the most when I visited North America was that attitude that you absolutely have to tip or otherwise you are some gigantic asshole. We went to a completely average restaurant, had completely average food that was possibly microwaved, the staff was average or below average at best.....and we all added like 15-20% tip at the end. I was just like......why? "Oh because you are a massive dick if you don't tip". I do occasionally tip in the UK when the service is really extraordinary, but feeling like you have to tip, almost completely detached from the actual quality of what you're getting.....that's bizzaire to me. And don't get me started on the nonsense that is tipping delivery drivers for what is effectively 5 seconds long interaction.
- jvagner 7y ago
  I've spent time in a lot of countries, and: You tip in the US because the employees are paid a sum that assumes tips are coming. You can pay less than minimum wage because the actual compensation comes from tips. Of course, this is different in other countries... And yes, 15% is standard for "acceptable" service and food. You can tip less if you really have a complaint, but with the proliferation of Yelp and Google Reviews, it's easy enough to avoid bad places. On a road trip, that can be a little different, but...
  - madeofpalk 7y ago
    > You tip in the US because the employees are paid a sum that assumes tips are coming. This type of justification has always seemed very Stockholm Syndrome-y to me. This is not a valid or acceptable reason. You tip in the US because everyone is complicit in the horrendous industrial relation laws.
    - chowells 7y ago
      You tip in the US because your only other personal alternative is hurting people who are in vulnerable jobs. It's not Stockholm syndrome, it's a hostage situation.
      - Scoundreller 7y ago
        Some of those vulnerable jobs pay incredibly well. Part of their vulnerability does come from near worthless job-injury/termination/severance pay because, on paper, take-home pay is far less than actual.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    I think more accurately, a business owner cannot pay less than minimum wage because actual compensation tips are coming, you MAY pay less than minimum wage IF wages + tips is at least minimum wage, otherwise employer is on the hook for the non-tipped amount. However, even in the jurisdictions that don't have a minimum wage exemption for tipped positions (such as Oregon), you're still socially expected to tip. At this point, the only thing tips are good for is letting business owners pay staff less than what they would normally have to, which the staff doesn't mind because they get to evade taxes on cash tips, and they sometimes make more money than if they were to be paid a wage and didn't get tipped. The customer gets the raw end of the deal as they frequently overpay.
    - Scoundreller 7y ago
      > I think more accurately, a business owner cannot pay less than minimum wage In food service, never say “cannot”!
- RHSeeger 7y ago
  Bear in mind that the food costs less at that restaurant _because_ the wait staff is paid less _because_ it is assumed you are tipping. As such, yes, you are a bad person for not tipping; you are getting the benefit of lower food prices in exchange for tipping.
  - traderjane 7y ago
    Tipping is what sustains the practice of underpaying.
  - SilasX 7y ago
    It's not that simple. In addition to that effect, you also have the dynamic that people can undertip [1] some amount without consequence. Meaning that price + customary tip will actually have to be higher than the average untipped price, since it doesn't have to make up for the defectors. [1] specifically, that means tipping under the average and/or in accordance with a lower scale or tougher standards than is generally expected.
  - mabbo 7y ago
    Can you imagine if all stores worked this way? Hey, the pricetag on the shirt at Walmart says $10, but you should really pay $13 because otherwise they'll just not pay their staff. But hey, your choice, you can (if you choose) cause their staff to have no money for food for their families. The problem here isn't the person not tipping, it's the broken culture where ensuring a livable wage for the poorest in society is a choice the wealthy get to make based on how they feel today.
  - Beldin 7y ago
    Which would be a factor if the sole reason for picking a particular restaurant is lowest price. That's virtually never - if it is, go home and cook. It's cheaper. The whole tipping system is insane: I'll allow you to provide services in my restaurant and if the customers like you, perhaps you'll earn some money. I'm still waiting for the restaurant holders to come up with the idea of charging for this unique opportunity. "Don't think of it as paying to be allowed to work, think of it as investing in your revenue-generating activities! !"
- deleted 7y ago
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- Scoundreller 7y ago
  France is like that too. Once with my hosts, I took care of the dining bill myself. Just when I thought I figured it all out, they’re like “oh, that was the owner of the restaurant with the cheque at the end, you really don’t have to give him a tip”. D’oh.
tashoecraft 7y ago
It's all hidden by intention. For example the delivery driver usually doesn't get the delivery charge, so if you don't tip they likely are loosing money to bring you food.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  That's not the customer's problem.
alteria 7y ago
The usual explanation for tipping is that the minimum wage for tipped employees is lower than the non-tipped minimum wage (sometimes as low as $2.13). If you knew everyone was getting paid the minimum wage, would you still tip on a regular basis? I recently learned that in states like Washington, California, Oregon this is the case [1], and have been tipping less as a result, but still feel slightly bad about it (societal conditioning is strong!). [1]https://www.minimum-wage.org/tipped https://www.minimum-wage.org/tipped
- rhino369 7y ago
  >The usual explanation for tipping is that the minimum wage for tipped employees is lower than the non-tipped minimum wage (sometimes as low as $2.13). People get the cause and effect backwards on that. The minimum wage is lower because lawmakers knew they were already getting compensated by tips. It's a social custom, not charity.
- maxerickson 7y ago
  No, that's not the explanation for tipping. Those reduced minimum wages are justified because the jobs include tipping. The reason you tip your waiter is (ostensibly) because it creates a direct incentive for better service, by leaving some of the compensation up to the customer. Let's not have a bunch of replies that ignore my caveat please.
  - oarabbus_ 7y ago
    >The reason you tip your waiter is (ostensibly) because it creates a direct incentive for better service, by leaving some of the compensation up to the customer. Funny how service is as good if not better in the vast majority of the rest of the world, despite a lack of tipping culture.
    - jmastrangelo 7y ago
      Is that true though? "service with a smile" and "The customer is always right" are notions I've seen far far more in the US. I think its more of a cultural thing than an effect of tipping, but service in the US is usually pretty high quality.
notJim 7y ago
One problem is that the restaurant lobby is surprisingly powerful. In DC, voters approved an initiative eliminating the tipped minimum wage, but the restaurant lobby succeeded in getting the city council to overturn it (after failing to persuade voters against it via lots of astroturfing.)
rhino369 7y ago
The problem is that removal of tipping, pretty much just hurts the employees. Customers will probably pay less. Employers will be a bigger cut of the customers actual spending. Very few restaurants would pay an hourly wage that is equivalent to what waiters are getting tipped now. So the waiter will just get less. Just look at what non-tipped restaurant workers get paid, not well.
- chillacy 7y ago
  There are restaurants that just tack on a 20% surcharge, do staff get paid less at those establishments?
  - jandrewrogers 7y ago
    Apparently, yes, they take home less money, counterintuitively. The no-tipping 20% surcharge model was tried at many Seattle restaurants a few years ago and now it is all but gone. I've asked employees about it and they all tell me they hated it because they made less money, hence why most restaurants got rid of the 20% surcharge policy and went back to tipping. One bartender I talked to made the (astute) observation that people feel more generosity toward individuals than to restaurants -- it de-personalized the transaction from the customer perspective, which turned the service charge into a food tax.
    - FireBeyond 7y ago
      > The no-tipping 20% surcharge model was tried at many Seattle restaurants a few years ago and now it is all but gone. I've asked employees about it and they all tell me they hated it because they made less money In other words, someone's being dishonest. In most cases, still, the model I seem to see (and I live in the PNW) was a 15/18/20 tip model, and for personal services (nails, hair, etc.) 25. Food servers would have us believe that poor tipping and other practices have them one shift away from being homeless, or "I have to pay the IRS to serve you, because they assume I'm getting tips I'm not"... ... and yet, when a 20% "tip"/surcharge (which would be on the high end, I feel, most of the time) is added on to every order... "This sucks, we're making less money".
hn_throwaway_99 7y ago
Despite how much I agree with you, this is never going to happen, because the real purpose of tips these days is to allow for variable pricing - the "base" price stays low, while people who can afford to tip more often do. I've seen lots of restaurants implement "no tipping" policies, only to revert back to tipping within a year or two. The reasons: 1. The higher base prices do have a negative impact on sales. 2. The best servers usually want tips, because they can make more at a tipping establishment. In the past 10/15 years I've changed my attitude around tipping now that pretty much every place I go to "flips around the iPad", asking for a tip. I no longer really think of it as a reward for good service. At the end of the day, I can't imagine trying to survive in a major city on barista wages, and I can afford it, so I tip.
- WhompingWindows 7y ago
  This is just naive thinking, that there is some grand purpose behind the laws of the USA. Step back, we all know it's because money is power in this country. Restaurant industries will kill any change that forces them to pay their employees a living wage. You think this is based on logic and sensibility? That's not how government works in the USA. The null hypothesis is that capitalism rules; all else, democracy and logic and truth, come a distant second.
- jwr 7y ago
  This approach makes no sense to me. It seems the "base" prices are fiction, just like the airline fares have become recently. They do not correspond to reality and do not allow for a sustainable business. Choosing where you will buy based on those fictional "base" prices and then tipping just supports that world which is detached from reality. If people stopped tipping, eventually things would right themselves: workers would stop working for establishments that do not pay enough, businesses would need to raise prices, people would need to start accepting the realistic pricing.
  - iguy 7y ago
    Maybe the solution is a truth in advertising law: the headline price always has to be the complete total, unless you intentionally add unusual extras. Restaurants are in one physical place, taxes aren't a mystery, there's no real excuse for the price printed on the menu not to be the actual price. Encouraging your employees to make side-deals with customers for cash... maybe we should start treating that as tax-evasion on the part of the restaurant. Putting a guess down in the books isn't OK for any other transaction.
matz1 7y ago
I generally don't tip, except for: - the establishment that I frequent (they remember) - uber (they affect your rating) - I knew for sure that it will give me extra service. In most situation I didn't experience negative affect.
- howard941 7y ago
  Sucks for the server who has to pay tax on the imputed tip income you pocketed.
  - deleted 7y ago
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- jjeaff 7y ago
  As far as I'm aware, Uber drivers don't see whether you tipped or not until after they have rated you. I suspect it is true since I never tip on Uber and I have a 4.96 out of 5 star rating. They initially billed themselves as no tipping necessary. I refuse to subsidize driver wages on behalf of Uber. There is no way Uber is not benefitting from tipping by being able to keep wages lower as a result.
jghn 7y ago
The pizza driver does not get the delivery charge. Generally that goes to the pizza shop itself. It's covering the overhead of maintaining a delivery program.
- unreal37 7y ago
  Oh no doubt the pizza shop keeps the "delivery charge". But pizza is a delivery food. Dominos doesn't even have seats. 90% of what it does is delivery. So the "overhead of running a delivery program" is just a business expense that should come out of their revenues.
- scarface74 7y ago
  What overhead? The employees generally use their own car.
  - sixstringtheory 7y ago
    I will say that during my short stint as a delivery driver for a small non-chain pizza shop, I got a flat rate (less than the delivery charge, mind you) for each delivery I took. Not sure if that happens in all cases, but I can see the case for charging a delivery fee. Baking it in to the cost of a pizza in general would unfairly charge people eating in or picking up. With delivery, you are paying for the pizza, and then an additional service. I still think tips should be eliminated from the equation, though.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      Pizza chains already have “carry out only” specials. I don’t have a problem with the delivery fee - but the driver should get it.
Stasis5001 7y ago
Tipping is a form of price discrimination, which generally makes things more efficient and has been a staple of capitalism since forever. A business actively wants to extract more money from customers who can afford more, and still sell to customers who are more price sensitive. Coupons are the more normal way to do this, but tipping serves this exact purpose. This is in theory good for customers (except in monopolies, where the business extracts all the value), but in practice, sure, I agree tipping is obnoxious as a customer and possibly even worse for those whose pay involves tips.
celticmusic 7y ago
I flat do not tip if there's a delivery charge. I've seen people make moral arguments about it, but I will not pay twice.
- tk75x 7y ago
  What about when the receipt/order slip explicitly says "any delivery charge is not paid to the driver"? many if not most national pizza chains have this disclaimer. I get around the tipping issue by ordering my pizza for pickup.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    I wouldn't repeatedly not tip just to avoid having my food tampered with, but if it's a one time order and you won't be dealing with the same person again, I see nothing wrong with not paying some nebulous amount you never agreed or were asked to pay.
  - ipython 7y ago
    Agreed with this but you have to wonder: if the “delivery fee” is not paid to the driver, and there is truly no additional work to prepare a delivery order than a pickup or dine in order, then .... ??
    - celticmusic 7y ago
      exactly.
JustSomeNobody 7y ago
> The pizza driver gets a delivery charge AND a tip! I think some places don't give the delivery charge to the driver (I hear Papa John's pockets it, but maybe I heard incorrectly). I agree in that I think tipping in general needs to change. But I was reading the other day where a bar owner was saying he could pay $X. But with tips, his employees were bringing home more than he was. It's hard for me to say this is wrong. What I find wrong, as you point out, is that everyone is asking for tips now. What I don't know is where to draw the line on who can ask for a tip and who can't.
- FireBeyond 7y ago
  Yeah, there's a little corner place near here that has pre-made (not by them), pre-packaged sandwiches and lunch rolls in an open fridge/display in front of the register. You walk in, you pick out your sandwich, you put it on the counter and you pay for it. The cashier is literally that, someone who presses a button picture of your meal on an ipad, inserts a card, and returns card to you... ... and gives you a dirty look when you don't tip for "service".
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flyGuyOnTheSly 7y ago
If I am unhappy with my service or quality of food, I don't tip. If the server is unhappy with the lack of a tip, and accosts me verbally (which has happened), I will explain my reasoning. Vote with your wallet, and all that jazz. If enough people stop tipping for crappy or non-existence services... perhaps eventually it will become more and more difficult for businesses to hire people to work for less than minimum wage... and the world will change. One short tip at a time. I am fine with other people thinking I am an asshole, they're free to do so. Most do not. I have worked in restaurants for years, and I worked my ass off for every tip I received. If you're serving me a microwaved burger, I don't care if that's the way they do it at this restaurant, I'm not tipping. To the downvoters... what solution do you propose? Legislation to be enacted to force restaurant employers the continent-over to start paying their employees more than twice what they're currently getting paid by the company, and increase food prices? That's never going to happen imho, we tip in North America, and the restaurants pay their employees less than minimum wage, that's just the way it is now.
- jawns 7y ago
  If you are unhappy with the quality of your food, you don't tip your server? Here's how that results in a lose-lose for both you and the server. Normally, if your food does not meet expectations, the best recourse is to let the server know what the problem is. The server can then either have the kitchen resolve the problem or talk to a manager, who can intervene to make things right. The end result is that you end up with food that meets expectations, or perhaps get a portion of the meal comped, and you walk out satisfied. By being passive aggressive and expressing your displeasure with a zero tip, you don't give the restaurant an opportunity to make things right, so you walk out unsatisfied. You also punish the wrong person, because it's not the server who is preparing the food. And keep in mind that the server is working a low-paying, often high-stress job, and your withholding of a tip might hit hard. And perhaps the reason why you've been accosted by servers is that nobody knows the reason why you're refusing to tip unless you tell them. If someone works hard but you stiff them because you didn't like the texture of your burger and didn't bother to raise the issue during your meal, it's not unreasonable for them to assume you thought there was something wrong with their service.
mikeash 7y ago
I agree but it doesn’t matter. It’s about eighteen billion times easier to shame a shitty company into confirming to cultural norms than it is to get hundreds of millions of people to change those norms.
jandrewrogers 7y ago
In Seattle, there was a push a few years ago to eliminate tipping in many restaurants. A 20% service charge was automatically added to the bill instead, on the theory that it would result in fairer and higher compensation for restaurant workers. Several of the places I frequent made this change at around the same time. Only a few years later, most restaurants seem to have reverted to the old policy of tipping. I've been told by several waiters and bartenders that worked in these restaurants that there was an employee revolt. People earned noticeably less money under the mandatory 20% service charge than with tipping. Consequently, no one wanted to work for restaurants that didn't have tipping. It was seen as a socially conscious move but it backfired for the people it was supposed to help. The behavioral and economic dynamics with tipping in the US seem to be more complex than people account for.
verisimilitudes 7y ago
I agree that tipping is stupid. Tipping incentivizes me to spend less and eat at restaraunts less, because I only want to spend a dollar tipping, at most, and so seek to spend around ten dollars, at most. The only reason I tip at all is because some restaraunts will remember me and you tip or get to wonder if they spit in your food. What a wonderful system. I tip nowhere else and, since I'm not remembered, I face no negative consequences of this.

gambiting 7y ago

The thing that bothered me the most when I visited North America was that attitude that you absolutely have to tip or otherwise you are some gigantic asshole. We went to a completely average restaurant, had completely average food that was possibly microwaved, the staff was average or below average at best.....and we all added like 15-20% tip at the end. I was just like......why? "Oh because you are a massive dick if you don't tip". I do occasionally tip in the UK when the service is really extraordinary, but feeling like you have to tip, almost completely detached from the actual quality of what you're getting.....that's bizzaire to me. And don't get me started on the nonsense that is tipping delivery drivers for what is effectively 5 seconds long interaction.

jvagner 7y ago
I've spent time in a lot of countries, and: You tip in the US because the employees are paid a sum that assumes tips are coming. You can pay less than minimum wage because the actual compensation comes from tips. Of course, this is different in other countries... And yes, 15% is standard for "acceptable" service and food. You can tip less if you really have a complaint, but with the proliferation of Yelp and Google Reviews, it's easy enough to avoid bad places. On a road trip, that can be a little different, but...
- madeofpalk 7y ago
  > You tip in the US because the employees are paid a sum that assumes tips are coming. This type of justification has always seemed very Stockholm Syndrome-y to me. This is not a valid or acceptable reason. You tip in the US because everyone is complicit in the horrendous industrial relation laws.
  - chowells 7y ago
    You tip in the US because your only other personal alternative is hurting people who are in vulnerable jobs. It's not Stockholm syndrome, it's a hostage situation.
    - Scoundreller 7y ago
      Some of those vulnerable jobs pay incredibly well. Part of their vulnerability does come from near worthless job-injury/termination/severance pay because, on paper, take-home pay is far less than actual.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  I think more accurately, a business owner cannot pay less than minimum wage because actual compensation tips are coming, you MAY pay less than minimum wage IF wages + tips is at least minimum wage, otherwise employer is on the hook for the non-tipped amount. However, even in the jurisdictions that don't have a minimum wage exemption for tipped positions (such as Oregon), you're still socially expected to tip. At this point, the only thing tips are good for is letting business owners pay staff less than what they would normally have to, which the staff doesn't mind because they get to evade taxes on cash tips, and they sometimes make more money than if they were to be paid a wage and didn't get tipped. The customer gets the raw end of the deal as they frequently overpay.
  - Scoundreller 7y ago
    > I think more accurately, a business owner cannot pay less than minimum wage In food service, never say “cannot”!
RHSeeger 7y ago
Bear in mind that the food costs less at that restaurant _because_ the wait staff is paid less _because_ it is assumed you are tipping. As such, yes, you are a bad person for not tipping; you are getting the benefit of lower food prices in exchange for tipping.
- traderjane 7y ago
  Tipping is what sustains the practice of underpaying.
- SilasX 7y ago
  It's not that simple. In addition to that effect, you also have the dynamic that people can undertip [1] some amount without consequence. Meaning that price + customary tip will actually have to be higher than the average untipped price, since it doesn't have to make up for the defectors. [1] specifically, that means tipping under the average and/or in accordance with a lower scale or tougher standards than is generally expected.
- mabbo 7y ago
  Can you imagine if all stores worked this way? Hey, the pricetag on the shirt at Walmart says $10, but you should really pay $13 because otherwise they'll just not pay their staff. But hey, your choice, you can (if you choose) cause their staff to have no money for food for their families. The problem here isn't the person not tipping, it's the broken culture where ensuring a livable wage for the poorest in society is a choice the wealthy get to make based on how they feel today.
- Beldin 7y ago
  Which would be a factor if the sole reason for picking a particular restaurant is lowest price. That's virtually never - if it is, go home and cook. It's cheaper. The whole tipping system is insane: I'll allow you to provide services in my restaurant and if the customers like you, perhaps you'll earn some money. I'm still waiting for the restaurant holders to come up with the idea of charging for this unique opportunity. "Don't think of it as paying to be allowed to work, think of it as investing in your revenue-generating activities! !"
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Scoundreller 7y ago
France is like that too. Once with my hosts, I took care of the dining bill myself. Just when I thought I figured it all out, they’re like “oh, that was the owner of the restaurant with the cheque at the end, you really don’t have to give him a tip”. D’oh.

tashoecraft 7y ago

It's all hidden by intention. For example the delivery driver usually doesn't get the delivery charge, so if you don't tip they likely are loosing money to bring you food.

lotsofpulp 7y ago
That's not the customer's problem.

alteria 7y ago

The usual explanation for tipping is that the minimum wage for tipped employees is lower than the non-tipped minimum wage (sometimes as low as $2.13). If you knew everyone was getting paid the minimum wage, would you still tip on a regular basis? I recently learned that in states like Washington, California, Oregon this is the case [1], and have been tipping less as a result, but still feel slightly bad about it (societal conditioning is strong!). [1]https://www.minimum-wage.org/tipped https://www.minimum-wage.org/tipped

rhino369 7y ago
>The usual explanation for tipping is that the minimum wage for tipped employees is lower than the non-tipped minimum wage (sometimes as low as $2.13). People get the cause and effect backwards on that. The minimum wage is lower because lawmakers knew they were already getting compensated by tips. It's a social custom, not charity.
maxerickson 7y ago
No, that's not the explanation for tipping. Those reduced minimum wages are justified because the jobs include tipping. The reason you tip your waiter is (ostensibly) because it creates a direct incentive for better service, by leaving some of the compensation up to the customer. Let's not have a bunch of replies that ignore my caveat please.
- oarabbus_ 7y ago
  >The reason you tip your waiter is (ostensibly) because it creates a direct incentive for better service, by leaving some of the compensation up to the customer. Funny how service is as good if not better in the vast majority of the rest of the world, despite a lack of tipping culture.
  - jmastrangelo 7y ago
    Is that true though? "service with a smile" and "The customer is always right" are notions I've seen far far more in the US. I think its more of a cultural thing than an effect of tipping, but service in the US is usually pretty high quality.

notJim 7y ago

One problem is that the restaurant lobby is surprisingly powerful. In DC, voters approved an initiative eliminating the tipped minimum wage, but the restaurant lobby succeeded in getting the city council to overturn it (after failing to persuade voters against it via lots of astroturfing.)

rhino369 7y ago

The problem is that removal of tipping, pretty much just hurts the employees. Customers will probably pay less. Employers will be a bigger cut of the customers actual spending. Very few restaurants would pay an hourly wage that is equivalent to what waiters are getting tipped now. So the waiter will just get less. Just look at what non-tipped restaurant workers get paid, not well.

chillacy 7y ago
There are restaurants that just tack on a 20% surcharge, do staff get paid less at those establishments?
- jandrewrogers 7y ago
  Apparently, yes, they take home less money, counterintuitively. The no-tipping 20% surcharge model was tried at many Seattle restaurants a few years ago and now it is all but gone. I've asked employees about it and they all tell me they hated it because they made less money, hence why most restaurants got rid of the 20% surcharge policy and went back to tipping. One bartender I talked to made the (astute) observation that people feel more generosity toward individuals than to restaurants -- it de-personalized the transaction from the customer perspective, which turned the service charge into a food tax.
  - FireBeyond 7y ago
    > The no-tipping 20% surcharge model was tried at many Seattle restaurants a few years ago and now it is all but gone. I've asked employees about it and they all tell me they hated it because they made less money In other words, someone's being dishonest. In most cases, still, the model I seem to see (and I live in the PNW) was a 15/18/20 tip model, and for personal services (nails, hair, etc.) 25. Food servers would have us believe that poor tipping and other practices have them one shift away from being homeless, or "I have to pay the IRS to serve you, because they assume I'm getting tips I'm not"... ... and yet, when a 20% "tip"/surcharge (which would be on the high end, I feel, most of the time) is added on to every order... "This sucks, we're making less money".

hn_throwaway_99 7y ago

Despite how much I agree with you, this is never going to happen, because the real purpose of tips these days is to allow for variable pricing - the "base" price stays low, while people who can afford to tip more often do. I've seen lots of restaurants implement "no tipping" policies, only to revert back to tipping within a year or two. The reasons: 1. The higher base prices do have a negative impact on sales. 2. The best servers usually want tips, because they can make more at a tipping establishment. In the past 10/15 years I've changed my attitude around tipping now that pretty much every place I go to "flips around the iPad", asking for a tip. I no longer really think of it as a reward for good service. At the end of the day, I can't imagine trying to survive in a major city on barista wages, and I can afford it, so I tip.

WhompingWindows 7y ago
This is just naive thinking, that there is some grand purpose behind the laws of the USA. Step back, we all know it's because money is power in this country. Restaurant industries will kill any change that forces them to pay their employees a living wage. You think this is based on logic and sensibility? That's not how government works in the USA. The null hypothesis is that capitalism rules; all else, democracy and logic and truth, come a distant second.
jwr 7y ago
This approach makes no sense to me. It seems the "base" prices are fiction, just like the airline fares have become recently. They do not correspond to reality and do not allow for a sustainable business. Choosing where you will buy based on those fictional "base" prices and then tipping just supports that world which is detached from reality. If people stopped tipping, eventually things would right themselves: workers would stop working for establishments that do not pay enough, businesses would need to raise prices, people would need to start accepting the realistic pricing.
- iguy 7y ago
  Maybe the solution is a truth in advertising law: the headline price always has to be the complete total, unless you intentionally add unusual extras. Restaurants are in one physical place, taxes aren't a mystery, there's no real excuse for the price printed on the menu not to be the actual price. Encouraging your employees to make side-deals with customers for cash... maybe we should start treating that as tax-evasion on the part of the restaurant. Putting a guess down in the books isn't OK for any other transaction.

matz1 7y ago

I generally don't tip, except for: - the establishment that I frequent (they remember) - uber (they affect your rating) - I knew for sure that it will give me extra service. In most situation I didn't experience negative affect.

howard941 7y ago
Sucks for the server who has to pay tax on the imputed tip income you pocketed.
- deleted 7y ago
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jjeaff 7y ago
As far as I'm aware, Uber drivers don't see whether you tipped or not until after they have rated you. I suspect it is true since I never tip on Uber and I have a 4.96 out of 5 star rating. They initially billed themselves as no tipping necessary. I refuse to subsidize driver wages on behalf of Uber. There is no way Uber is not benefitting from tipping by being able to keep wages lower as a result.

jghn 7y ago

The pizza driver does not get the delivery charge. Generally that goes to the pizza shop itself. It's covering the overhead of maintaining a delivery program.

unreal37 7y ago
Oh no doubt the pizza shop keeps the "delivery charge". But pizza is a delivery food. Dominos doesn't even have seats. 90% of what it does is delivery. So the "overhead of running a delivery program" is just a business expense that should come out of their revenues.
scarface74 7y ago
What overhead? The employees generally use their own car.
- sixstringtheory 7y ago
  I will say that during my short stint as a delivery driver for a small non-chain pizza shop, I got a flat rate (less than the delivery charge, mind you) for each delivery I took. Not sure if that happens in all cases, but I can see the case for charging a delivery fee. Baking it in to the cost of a pizza in general would unfairly charge people eating in or picking up. With delivery, you are paying for the pizza, and then an additional service. I still think tips should be eliminated from the equation, though.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Pizza chains already have “carry out only” specials. I don’t have a problem with the delivery fee - but the driver should get it.

Stasis5001 7y ago

Tipping is a form of price discrimination, which generally makes things more efficient and has been a staple of capitalism since forever. A business actively wants to extract more money from customers who can afford more, and still sell to customers who are more price sensitive. Coupons are the more normal way to do this, but tipping serves this exact purpose. This is in theory good for customers (except in monopolies, where the business extracts all the value), but in practice, sure, I agree tipping is obnoxious as a customer and possibly even worse for those whose pay involves tips.

celticmusic 7y ago

I flat do not tip if there's a delivery charge. I've seen people make moral arguments about it, but I will not pay twice.

tk75x 7y ago
What about when the receipt/order slip explicitly says "any delivery charge is not paid to the driver"? many if not most national pizza chains have this disclaimer. I get around the tipping issue by ordering my pizza for pickup.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  I wouldn't repeatedly not tip just to avoid having my food tampered with, but if it's a one time order and you won't be dealing with the same person again, I see nothing wrong with not paying some nebulous amount you never agreed or were asked to pay.
- ipython 7y ago
  Agreed with this but you have to wonder: if the “delivery fee” is not paid to the driver, and there is truly no additional work to prepare a delivery order than a pickup or dine in order, then .... ??
  - celticmusic 7y ago
    exactly.

JustSomeNobody 7y ago

> The pizza driver gets a delivery charge AND a tip! I think some places don't give the delivery charge to the driver (I hear Papa John's pockets it, but maybe I heard incorrectly). I agree in that I think tipping in general needs to change. But I was reading the other day where a bar owner was saying he could pay $X. But with tips, his employees were bringing home more than he was. It's hard for me to say this is wrong. What I find wrong, as you point out, is that everyone is asking for tips now. What I don't know is where to draw the line on who can ask for a tip and who can't.

FireBeyond 7y ago
Yeah, there's a little corner place near here that has pre-made (not by them), pre-packaged sandwiches and lunch rolls in an open fridge/display in front of the register. You walk in, you pick out your sandwich, you put it on the counter and you pay for it. The cashier is literally that, someone who presses a button picture of your meal on an ipad, inserts a card, and returns card to you... ... and gives you a dirty look when you don't tip for "service".

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flyGuyOnTheSly 7y ago

If I am unhappy with my service or quality of food, I don't tip. If the server is unhappy with the lack of a tip, and accosts me verbally (which has happened), I will explain my reasoning. Vote with your wallet, and all that jazz. If enough people stop tipping for crappy or non-existence services... perhaps eventually it will become more and more difficult for businesses to hire people to work for less than minimum wage... and the world will change. One short tip at a time. I am fine with other people thinking I am an asshole, they're free to do so. Most do not. I have worked in restaurants for years, and I worked my ass off for every tip I received. If you're serving me a microwaved burger, I don't care if that's the way they do it at this restaurant, I'm not tipping. To the downvoters... what solution do you propose? Legislation to be enacted to force restaurant employers the continent-over to start paying their employees more than twice what they're currently getting paid by the company, and increase food prices? That's never going to happen imho, we tip in North America, and the restaurants pay their employees less than minimum wage, that's just the way it is now.

jawns 7y ago
If you are unhappy with the quality of your food, you don't tip your server? Here's how that results in a lose-lose for both you and the server. Normally, if your food does not meet expectations, the best recourse is to let the server know what the problem is. The server can then either have the kitchen resolve the problem or talk to a manager, who can intervene to make things right. The end result is that you end up with food that meets expectations, or perhaps get a portion of the meal comped, and you walk out satisfied. By being passive aggressive and expressing your displeasure with a zero tip, you don't give the restaurant an opportunity to make things right, so you walk out unsatisfied. You also punish the wrong person, because it's not the server who is preparing the food. And keep in mind that the server is working a low-paying, often high-stress job, and your withholding of a tip might hit hard. And perhaps the reason why you've been accosted by servers is that nobody knows the reason why you're refusing to tip unless you tell them. If someone works hard but you stiff them because you didn't like the texture of your burger and didn't bother to raise the issue during your meal, it's not unreasonable for them to assume you thought there was something wrong with their service.

mikeash 7y ago

I agree but it doesn’t matter. It’s about eighteen billion times easier to shame a shitty company into confirming to cultural norms than it is to get hundreds of millions of people to change those norms.

jandrewrogers 7y ago

In Seattle, there was a push a few years ago to eliminate tipping in many restaurants. A 20% service charge was automatically added to the bill instead, on the theory that it would result in fairer and higher compensation for restaurant workers. Several of the places I frequent made this change at around the same time. Only a few years later, most restaurants seem to have reverted to the old policy of tipping. I've been told by several waiters and bartenders that worked in these restaurants that there was an employee revolt. People earned noticeably less money under the mandatory 20% service charge than with tipping. Consequently, no one wanted to work for restaurants that didn't have tipping. It was seen as a socially conscious move but it backfired for the people it was supposed to help. The behavioral and economic dynamics with tipping in the US seem to be more complex than people account for.

verisimilitudes 7y ago

I agree that tipping is stupid. Tipping incentivizes me to spend less and eat at restaraunts less, because I only want to spend a dollar tipping, at most, and so seek to spend around ten dollars, at most. The only reason I tip at all is because some restaraunts will remember me and you tip or get to wonder if they spit in your food. What a wonderful system. I tip nowhere else and, since I'm not remembered, I face no negative consequences of this.