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I wonder how many people in the survey interpret "opportunities for professional growth" as "opportunities to get rich". To me that makes the survey data more

I wonder how many people in the survey interpret "opportunities for professional growth" as "opportunities to get rich". To me that makes the survey data more understandable. People, myself included, basically want more money for less hours (AKA work/life balance).

ngngngng 7y ago
Completely, I just asked in my open office space what "opportunities for professional growth" means and everyones said raise or promotion.
- elindbe2 7y ago
  It seems like tricky wording used by businesses to pay people less. Tell people in your job description that you offer "opportunities for career growth" and they hear "opportunities to get rich". Then when they're actually working there you just change the meaning to some kind of title inflation or meaningless training or additional responsibilities for the same pay.
  - eropple 7y ago
    > even worse, additional responsibilities for the same pay FWIW, and I say this acutely aware that I'm of the "don't give them what you don't owe them" tribe, additional responsibilities for the same pay are how I got the broad skillset that got me to the point where I'm a principal developer with a hand in every part of our project--which is, in addition to no-complaints compensated, genuinely a lot of fun. I took on those responsibilities as an investment in myself; admittedly the key was finding high-value, high-leverage responsibilities, but it was for me more than for my current employer. Few enough people are going to pay you to learn something on their dime if you don't already show a ton of promise. Broadening your skillset is, IMO, how you get to the next job.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - hugey010 7y ago
      I couldn't agree more. Talk is cheap. Take that that extra responsibility on and prove to everyone, including yourself, that you're capable. Use the experience and knowledge as leverage with your current employer or a new one. It's a lot easier to ask for a raise or high pay showing what you have done than what you could do.
  - markkanof 7y ago
    I think "opportunities for career growth" is very similar to how graphic designers or musicians are always pitched that they should do work for someone for low/no pay because it will get them "more exposure". There is the possibility that the growth opportunity will end up being a good investment with regard to future financial returns, but I think the most likely case is that it will just end up with the person doing the work losing out on money.
jressey 7y ago
"Mentorship" and "impressive team members" are other choices, so yea. Maybe not "get rich," but certainly "get paid more and have a more impressive title."
conanbatt 7y ago
Thats one way to look at it, but to get rich you want to join companies that are growing like crazy. A company that grows 20% like google offers high cash low stock. But a company that grows 100% every year can make you a millionaire in a couple of years. Its true startups lotteries are not great for employees in general, but who would have bet that UBER wouldn't IPO in 2014? or some other companies like Airbnb, etc.
- elindbe2 7y ago
  There are ways to get rich inside the career world. For example, become a managing director at a big bank.
- XMPPwocky 7y ago
  Is this a more effective tactic, in expectation, than working a well-paid job at an established company and then going to Vegas every year to bet a decent chunk of your salary?
  - conanbatt 7y ago
    Well, Sam Altman & Andressen have strong opinion on it: join rocket ships. You can also get a much higher position at a well paid job if one of the bets pays off, or if you find growth opportunities. While getting a promotion at google might take you 4 years, in a high growth startup you might jump 2 steps in 6 months.
    - richardwhiuk 7y ago
      You might, or you might go nowhere if the rocket ship falls over, which is much more likely.
      - conanbatt 7y ago
        Like flipping any coin. Gotta match your risk appetite with the value of the gamble.
      - 7y ago
farisjarrah 7y ago
There is some cognitive dissonance that I can't seem to get over while reading your comment. While your statement is technically true, I just don't see it being true in the real world. Any time I have gotten a job that has paid better, it also came with more challenges and more difficulty and invariably more of a time investment(even if that means studying outside of work). Maybe I am just taking the wrong jobs...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- adrianpike 7y ago
  It's possible the OP is thinking from a consulting or contract perspective, because my experience is in line with yours - as my salary grows, so does my sphere of influence, but also my scope of responsibility, and that usually has meant more time investment. The thing that's interesting though, is on the consulting side, as my rates and overall project cost have increased, the time investment to close a sale has also gone up. Meanwhile, if you go for a more expensive & specialized skillset, there's also a time investment on the marketing & outreach front. Basically, in my experience, there's a small handful of people who've managed to carve out a niche where they can work low hours and make a high hourly rate, but they're few and far between, and investing in passive income streams is really the way to go. That said, I _really hate_ managing rental properties instead of slinging code, but in terms of dollar per hour there's no comparison.
  - my_usernam3 7y ago
    > there's a small handful of people who've managed to carve out a niche where they can work low hours and make a high hourly rate, but they're few and far between They seem to be the loud minority on here though. I guess if you get a sweet gig like that, you will find lots of time to post on HN. I know I'd brag about it too if I was in that situation.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- 7y ago
stakhanov 7y ago
That equation is a theoretical one. On the whole, jobs that offer high $/hr will mandate crazy hours. Jobs that will allow you to go 20 hr/wk, or 10 hr/wk will usually not pay you well on a per-hour basis either. -- I predict that in response to what I just wrote, there will be people showing off about how they managed to make a consulting lifestyle business like that actually work because of how awesome they are. -- But keep in mind they are the exception, not the rule.
- Retric 7y ago
  Taking time off between jobs is a real option for most programmers. Depending on how long you stay at each company it can even add up to a few years of time off without having obvious gaps on the resume.
  - stakhanov 7y ago
    You have to have the stomach for that... Personally, I couldn't get any real enjoyment out of a time period where I didn't know when/where/whether I have another job lined up, and opportunities to get truly trustworthy commitments on start dates that are a significant period of time in the future are rare.
    - dmoy 7y ago
      I agree with you. Unless you had like, a lot of money.
    - badpun 7y ago
      I do that all the time - like literally my CV has probably 5 or 6 gaps of varying duration (between 3 months and two years). Often, during those gaps I spend some time working on something tech related, so I put that into the gap in the CV. Even with those gaps, I'm having zero problem finding well-paying jobs. I think it's because, despite those gaps, I represent good value to the employer - I know the latest tech, have done good work in the past, can present coherent and mature opinions during the interview etc. Also, I only do long-term contracts where they explicitly don't care that I'm a job-hopping mercenary that is not ever going to believe the "company mission", because the assumption is that the whole arrangement is temporary anyway. In practice, they always want to retain me and I end up quitting out of boredom after a year of two. To summarize, the gaps are probably important only when you're in close competition with lots of folks similar to you. But, if you're a bit of an expert in a specific niche (mine is Big Data - Hadoop and related crap, applied in enterprise IT context) and there aren't that many competent candidates around, the gaps suddenly don't matter.
scruple 7y ago
I'd be interested to know, too. I interpret that statement, personally, to be more along the lines of "maintaining my employability (in this industry)." Maybe upbringing / background plays a significant factor here? I watched both of my parents very unceremoniously lose their job-for-life jobs and nearly everything along with it. My primary motivation, then, to stay abreast of the industry, to pursue new skills/technologies/challenges, things that I would put under the label of "opportunities for professional growth," has (not entirely, but for the most part) little to do with the amount that I'm paid (considering that I perceive myself to be paid well) and everything to do with maintaining a recurring paycheck until I'm retirement age.
markkanof 7y ago
Absolutely. I used to work for a small consulting company where most of the work was building fairly boring line of business systems for big corporations. It seemed like we charged way below what other similar consultancies where charging, so I asked why we didn't charge more. The response was not that we couldn't charge more, but that at $X the clients just wanted use to work endless 8 hour days, but at $2X clients would only bring us in for more critical projects but would not want to pay for our time doing routine maintenance, filling out corporate paperwork, support requests, etc. To me it sure sounded like we should have been charging $2X, having to work less, and being treated as a valuable resource. But I guess some people prefer the (implied all though not real) security of consulting contracts without an end date.
meowface 7y ago
Most people want that, but I think a high percentage of programmers do truly want a job where they get opportunities to learn new things (in addition to opportunities to make money). They probably should've split the question into "promotion/raise/compensation opportunities" and "learning/skill improvement opportunities", or something.

ngngngng 7y ago

Completely, I just asked in my open office space what "opportunities for professional growth" means and everyones said raise or promotion.

elindbe2 7y ago
It seems like tricky wording used by businesses to pay people less. Tell people in your job description that you offer "opportunities for career growth" and they hear "opportunities to get rich". Then when they're actually working there you just change the meaning to some kind of title inflation or meaningless training or additional responsibilities for the same pay.
- eropple 7y ago
  > even worse, additional responsibilities for the same pay FWIW, and I say this acutely aware that I'm of the "don't give them what you don't owe them" tribe, additional responsibilities for the same pay are how I got the broad skillset that got me to the point where I'm a principal developer with a hand in every part of our project--which is, in addition to no-complaints compensated, genuinely a lot of fun. I took on those responsibilities as an investment in myself; admittedly the key was finding high-value, high-leverage responsibilities, but it was for me more than for my current employer. Few enough people are going to pay you to learn something on their dime if you don't already show a ton of promise. Broadening your skillset is, IMO, how you get to the next job.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - hugey010 7y ago
    I couldn't agree more. Talk is cheap. Take that that extra responsibility on and prove to everyone, including yourself, that you're capable. Use the experience and knowledge as leverage with your current employer or a new one. It's a lot easier to ask for a raise or high pay showing what you have done than what you could do.
- markkanof 7y ago
  I think "opportunities for career growth" is very similar to how graphic designers or musicians are always pitched that they should do work for someone for low/no pay because it will get them "more exposure". There is the possibility that the growth opportunity will end up being a good investment with regard to future financial returns, but I think the most likely case is that it will just end up with the person doing the work losing out on money.

jressey 7y ago

"Mentorship" and "impressive team members" are other choices, so yea. Maybe not "get rich," but certainly "get paid more and have a more impressive title."

conanbatt 7y ago

Thats one way to look at it, but to get rich you want to join companies that are growing like crazy. A company that grows 20% like google offers high cash low stock. But a company that grows 100% every year can make you a millionaire in a couple of years. Its true startups lotteries are not great for employees in general, but who would have bet that UBER wouldn't IPO in 2014? or some other companies like Airbnb, etc.

elindbe2 7y ago
There are ways to get rich inside the career world. For example, become a managing director at a big bank.
XMPPwocky 7y ago
Is this a more effective tactic, in expectation, than working a well-paid job at an established company and then going to Vegas every year to bet a decent chunk of your salary?
- conanbatt 7y ago
  Well, Sam Altman & Andressen have strong opinion on it: join rocket ships. You can also get a much higher position at a well paid job if one of the bets pays off, or if you find growth opportunities. While getting a promotion at google might take you 4 years, in a high growth startup you might jump 2 steps in 6 months.
  - richardwhiuk 7y ago
    You might, or you might go nowhere if the rocket ship falls over, which is much more likely.
    - conanbatt 7y ago
      Like flipping any coin. Gotta match your risk appetite with the value of the gamble.
    - 7y ago

farisjarrah 7y ago

There is some cognitive dissonance that I can't seem to get over while reading your comment. While your statement is technically true, I just don't see it being true in the real world. Any time I have gotten a job that has paid better, it also came with more challenges and more difficulty and invariably more of a time investment(even if that means studying outside of work). Maybe I am just taking the wrong jobs...

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
adrianpike 7y ago
It's possible the OP is thinking from a consulting or contract perspective, because my experience is in line with yours - as my salary grows, so does my sphere of influence, but also my scope of responsibility, and that usually has meant more time investment. The thing that's interesting though, is on the consulting side, as my rates and overall project cost have increased, the time investment to close a sale has also gone up. Meanwhile, if you go for a more expensive & specialized skillset, there's also a time investment on the marketing & outreach front. Basically, in my experience, there's a small handful of people who've managed to carve out a niche where they can work low hours and make a high hourly rate, but they're few and far between, and investing in passive income streams is really the way to go. That said, I _really hate_ managing rental properties instead of slinging code, but in terms of dollar per hour there's no comparison.
- my_usernam3 7y ago
  > there's a small handful of people who've managed to carve out a niche where they can work low hours and make a high hourly rate, but they're few and far between They seem to be the loud minority on here though. I guess if you get a sweet gig like that, you will find lots of time to post on HN. I know I'd brag about it too if I was in that situation.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
7y ago

stakhanov 7y ago

That equation is a theoretical one. On the whole, jobs that offer high $/hr will mandate crazy hours. Jobs that will allow you to go 20 hr/wk, or 10 hr/wk will usually not pay you well on a per-hour basis either. -- I predict that in response to what I just wrote, there will be people showing off about how they managed to make a consulting lifestyle business like that actually work because of how awesome they are. -- But keep in mind they are the exception, not the rule.

Retric 7y ago
Taking time off between jobs is a real option for most programmers. Depending on how long you stay at each company it can even add up to a few years of time off without having obvious gaps on the resume.
- stakhanov 7y ago
  You have to have the stomach for that... Personally, I couldn't get any real enjoyment out of a time period where I didn't know when/where/whether I have another job lined up, and opportunities to get truly trustworthy commitments on start dates that are a significant period of time in the future are rare.
  - dmoy 7y ago
    I agree with you. Unless you had like, a lot of money.
  - badpun 7y ago
    I do that all the time - like literally my CV has probably 5 or 6 gaps of varying duration (between 3 months and two years). Often, during those gaps I spend some time working on something tech related, so I put that into the gap in the CV. Even with those gaps, I'm having zero problem finding well-paying jobs. I think it's because, despite those gaps, I represent good value to the employer - I know the latest tech, have done good work in the past, can present coherent and mature opinions during the interview etc. Also, I only do long-term contracts where they explicitly don't care that I'm a job-hopping mercenary that is not ever going to believe the "company mission", because the assumption is that the whole arrangement is temporary anyway. In practice, they always want to retain me and I end up quitting out of boredom after a year of two. To summarize, the gaps are probably important only when you're in close competition with lots of folks similar to you. But, if you're a bit of an expert in a specific niche (mine is Big Data - Hadoop and related crap, applied in enterprise IT context) and there aren't that many competent candidates around, the gaps suddenly don't matter.

scruple 7y ago

I'd be interested to know, too. I interpret that statement, personally, to be more along the lines of "maintaining my employability (in this industry)." Maybe upbringing / background plays a significant factor here? I watched both of my parents very unceremoniously lose their job-for-life jobs and nearly everything along with it. My primary motivation, then, to stay abreast of the industry, to pursue new skills/technologies/challenges, things that I would put under the label of "opportunities for professional growth," has (not entirely, but for the most part) little to do with the amount that I'm paid (considering that I perceive myself to be paid well) and everything to do with maintaining a recurring paycheck until I'm retirement age.

markkanof 7y ago

Absolutely. I used to work for a small consulting company where most of the work was building fairly boring line of business systems for big corporations. It seemed like we charged way below what other similar consultancies where charging, so I asked why we didn't charge more. The response was not that we couldn't charge more, but that at $X the clients just wanted use to work endless 8 hour days, but at $2X clients would only bring us in for more critical projects but would not want to pay for our time doing routine maintenance, filling out corporate paperwork, support requests, etc. To me it sure sounded like we should have been charging $2X, having to work less, and being treated as a valuable resource. But I guess some people prefer the (implied all though not real) security of consulting contracts without an end date.

meowface 7y ago

Most people want that, but I think a high percentage of programmers do truly want a job where they get opportunities to learn new things (in addition to opportunities to make money). They probably should've split the question into "promotion/raise/compensation opportunities" and "learning/skill improvement opportunities", or something.