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A Thriving Civilization in Malta Collapsed 4k Years Ago
- umeshunni 7y agoThis is probably related to the (somewhat shortsightedly named) 4.2 kiloyear event when climate change and aridity caused the collapse of multiple long standing civilizations like the Egyptian and Indus valley civilizations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4.2_kiloyear_event https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4.2_kiloyear_event https://phys.org/news/2014-02-decline-bronze-age-megacities-linked.html https://phys.org/news/2014-02-decline-bronze-age-megacities-... https://www.livescience.com/20614-collapse-mythical-river-civilization.html https://www.livescience.com/20614-collapse-mythical-river-ci...
- jolmg 7y agoI guess kiloyear is the new B.C. with the 2000 marking a new epoch. It really seems too shortsighted.
- nostrademons 7y agoThis comment thread sparked a new Wikipedia tangent for me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Before_Present https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Before_Present Apparently, the "before present" time scale is commonly used in archaeology and geology, and uses an epoch date of Jan 1, 1950. And there're two reasons for this: radiocarbon dating was first standardized in the 1950s, using a reference sample from 1950; and after the 1950s, widespread nuclear testing made radiocarbon dating inaccurate. It's actually less arbitrary and shortsighted than it seems. Future civilizations are going to face a discontinuity in the archaeological record, and it'll be roughly at the Before Present epoch date.
- ako 7y agoMakes you think about the impact of nuclear testing... What else is impacted by these tests?
- kuzehanka 7y agoNot a lot globally and at this timescale. Radionuclides is about it. Nuclear bombs put energy and radioactive particulates into the atmosphere. The effects of the radioactive particulates are fairly well understood. The amount of energy from even the largest bombs is negligible at those scales. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4165831/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4165831/
- gdfasfklshg4 7y ago> Low-background steel is any steel produced prior to the detonation of the first nuclear bombs in the 1940s and 1950s. With the Trinity test and the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945, and then subsequent nuclear weapons testing during the early years of the Cold War, background radiation levels increased across the world. Modern steel is contaminated with radionuclides because its production uses atmospheric air. Low-background steel is so-called because it does not suffer from such nuclear contamination. This steel is used in devices that require the highest sensitivity for detecting radionuclides. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel
- dominicr 7y agoApparently one source of low-background steel are ships built before 1945, especially military ships as they are large and can be in use for decades. The US navy has scraped a few old ships for this use and there are theories that some WW2 wrecks are being salvaged from the ocean bed for this purpose, but there is no conclusive evidence.
- taejo 7y agoAnd not just before 1945: lead is used for radiation shielding, but freshly-mined lead is slightly radioactive itself... shipments of lead that were mined 2000 years ago and sitting at the bottom of the Mediterranean since then, much less so: https://www.nature.com/news/2010/100415/full/news.2010.186.html https://www.nature.com/news/2010/100415/full/news.2010.186.h...
- njarboe 7y agoThe zero year for the "Before Present(BP)" timescale is 1950. BP was used by carbon dating scientists first and 1950 was a nice round date a few years before the year when carbon dating[1] no longer worked due to atmospheric nuclear testing. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating
- dredmorbius 7y agoThe number of different dates corresponding to "present" or "modern" is ... dizzying. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernity See also "modern humans".
- agumonkey 7y agoSince collapse is getting trendy, we get a few articles and videos about previous occurrences. That said I'd be more interested in the aftermath and rebuild (recover/coma) period after that.
- poelzi 7y agoI"m into that topic before it became mainstream, long term /r/collapse reader. To be honest, I don't think there will be a rebuild after this one. No water, no food and wet bulb temperatures over 35 °C for many hours a day, good look under this conditions. Maybe some smaller groups will find some sweat spot to survive in, but large scale civilizations I doubt that.
- adwn 7y ago> To be honest, I don't think there will be a rebuild after this one. Wait, I'm confused. Are you claiming that current climate change will lead to the collapse of civilization?
- cagenut 7y agoThat is the default path we're on. All the models for things not going that way involve the emissions rate plummeting over the next decade and then going negative for several decades. Essentially the IPCC and scientists in general have baked in the assumption to the models that we are smart enough to avoid collapse by changing our behavior. TBD. Or to put it in P.G./HN jargon, (our current) civilization is "default dead" if we stay above 10Gt/year for the latter half of the century.
- r3bl 7y agoHe's far from being the first one to claim that. That's where doing nothing leads us, and so far, we (as in, the society) seem incapable of tackling this problem. It's already too late to stop it, and we seem incapable to contain it as well. For the overview of the argument, I'd recommend a paper called "Deep Adaptation: A Map for Navigating Climate Tragedy". Direct link: http://www.lifeworth.com/deepadaptation.pdf http://www.lifeworth.com/deepadaptation.pdf
- samstave 7y agoIs malta where they have those wheel ruts in the stone from centuries of use? Yep: https://www.ancient-origins.net/unexplained-phenomena/prehistoric-lines-across-malta-cart-ruts-misrah-ghar-il-kbir-020312 https://www.ancient-origins.net/unexplained-phenomena/prehis...
- Darkphibre 7y ago>Width between the tracks extends about 140 centimeters, but not in all instances. The tracks measured at the San Gwann site in Malta are said to be half a meter in depth, making them the deepest to be found. Wow. Our rail gauge is 142 centimeters. And half a meter deep? (Goes looking into Roman cart technology)... about the same! > These rims had their outer side convex, inner side concave or flat, with a thickness of about 15 mm., a width of between 35 to 45mm., and a diameter from 1001 to 1193 mm.20 >Roman Traction Systems http://www.humanist.de/rome/rts/wagon.html http://www.humanist.de/rome/rts/wagon.html >The historical tendency to place the wheels of horse-drawn vehicles approximately 5 feet (1,500 mm) apart probably derives from the width needed to fit a carthorse in between the shafts. >Are U.S. Railroad Gauges Based on Roman Chariots? https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/railroad-gauge-chariots/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/railroad-gauge-chariots/
- dredmorbius 7y agoWhile moderns tend to think there's not much path-dependency in specifying axle-widths for wheeled vehicles, between rut tracks (mant remarkably persistent) and gate widths, constraints can be strongly imposed. Rail guages have also varied fairly considerably, though again, standards come to be imposed with time. Reguaging rolling stock is slow
- dredmorbius 7y agos/mant/many/
- blarg1 7y ago|| aliens ||
- chiefalchemist 7y ago> "The decisive blow may have been an unknown catastrophe that occurred around 2350 BC, a period during which, according to tree ring analysis, the whole region suffered a catastrophic climate event—possibly a dust cloud caused by a volcanic eruption." Wouldn't this leave some sort of trace? A layer in the dirt? Even under water? I'm a bit disappointed - this being the crux of the theory - this was left open. Intentionally?
- shakna 7y agoThere is a known dramatic climate shift that occurred around that timeframe that is responsible for several civilisation collapses. [0] However, the author points out that they lack the preservation of proxies such as what you've pointed out. They were analysing in a region where ecological change occurs frequently. [0] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1134%2FS1064229317070018 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1134%2FS106422931707001...
- chiefalchemist 7y agoWell, with that being said, what I read, at least to some extent, implied this society had a (heavy) hand in their own undoing. But if the area is known to be in flux, then maybe it was simply another round in that cycle? Or not? That context, to me, should be stated plain and obvious right upfront. Caveats. They matter.
- dingoegret 7y agoThe narrative of the article is eurocentric and revisionist. Framing the civilization as European instead of Mediterranean and North African.
- 8bitsrule 7y agoFavorite part: "Until now, the Temple Culture was thought to have centered on the worship of a mother goddess, but Malone thinks it was more of a clubhouse culture, focused on ritual and feasting but where food—rather than a deity—was revered." (The word'Temple' has for too long been a placeholder for 'we don't know.')
- ratacat 7y agoI love that you spoke to this. It seems to me that there's as particularly strong aversion to acknowledging how much we don't know when it comes to talking about these things.
- Boebo 7y agoThe "if we dont know its part of a ritual/temple" joke was being told the first class in archaeology and it was repeated thoroughly. Everyone knows it's just a convenient placeholder.
- saalweachter 7y agoEven Harry Dresden jokes about "ceremonial objects" (ironically while looking at a bunch of them).
- purrcat259 7y agoRitual, Feasting and Food are still reverred in Malta to this day :)
- noir-york 7y agoAs a Maltese, I can confirm :) Sahha!
- sdrothrock 7y ago> Until now, the Temple Culture was thought to have centered on the worship of a mother goddess, but Malone thinks it was more of a clubhouse culture, focused on ritual and feasting but where food—rather than a deity—was revered." > > (The word'Temple' has for too long been a placeholder for 'we don't know.') This reminded me of The Motel of the Mysteries[1] where modern-day objects and franchises are similarly turned into temples and objects of worship or religious tools. [1] https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/MotelOfTheMysteries https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/MotelOfThe...
- viburnum 7y agoUsually these kinds of articles avoid the obvious fact, that ancient civilizations were based on plunder and exploitation, and that eventually you run out of places to plunder or your victims adapt and fight back. This was surprising because it seems like that wasn’t the case.
- ThrustVectoring 7y agoWell-documented ancient civilizations tend to be the conquer-and-plunder typer, sure, but there's an obvious survivorship bias there.
- bayesian_horse 7y agoI'd say the onset of civilization is marked by the ability to organize politically and amass resources without resorting to whole-sale plunder. What makes the Maltese Temple Culture a "Civilization" is the higher population density and their efforts to bend the land to their will, leaving traces that endure for millenia.
- networkimprov 7y agoMuch more so after the mastery of bronze production for weapons and armor, and of horse-drawn chariots and/or mounted warriors.
- bayesian_horse 7y agoFrom the article I doubt that this population was based on "plunder and exploitation". Apparently the scientists reconstructed their diet from skeletal remains, and you'd expect your standard marauder types to feed more on meat, since meat packs more calories (and satisfaction) per kilo. The scientists say they didn't find many signs of violent deaths (in contrast to South American sites) and collapsed without signs of an exodus. Also the location of the island can't have been that convenient for seafarers of the period. On top of that, they didn't do much fishing at all, further pointing to a lack of maritime ambition.
- rsynnott 7y agoThat's the case for some ancient civilizations (it's definitely one of the more plausible entries on the great big list of reasons Rome fell, say), but not all.
- rurban 7y agoNot just Malta. The whole Minoic culture (Greek Islands) went down. Most likely due to the Santorini vulcanic eruption.
- jointpdf 7y agoReflecting on ancient civilizations is always exhilarating—a way to connect with where we’ve been as a species, and where we may eventually go. I wonder how life must have felt subjectively from the perspective of someone without the lenses (and weight) of history and science, without knowing where they are in space and time (on a planetary and cosmic scale, as we do). Yet there are so many aspects of day-to-day human life and society that never seem to change. Stories of societal/environmental reckonings are also a good reminder that civilizational resilience is a worthy goal, if for no other reason than future generations can experience the existential “enoughness” of eating olives in the Mediterranean sun (and such). By the way, I recommend the book Collapse by Jared Diamond for more like this article. Spoiler alert: do not totally deforest whatever island you live on. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse:_How_Societies_Choose_to_Fail_or_Succeed https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse:_How_Societies_Choo...
- jcranmer 7y agoIt is worth pointing out that most anthropologists disagree with Jared Diamond's thesis. Notably, the consensus view is that Greenland, Easter Island, and Mayan city states were not driven to collapse primarily because of ecological effects. Greenland's collapse was largely driven by a shift in northern trade routes and Greenland lost its cash crop export (ivory). Easter Island does not appear to have undergone any sort of collapse until after European contact. And the Mayan collapse is actually completely backwards from how it should progress if climate was the major factor: there was a shift in power from the more fertile highlands region to what was previously the relatively backwards arid Yucatan region (Cichen Itza, in the northern Yucatan, didn't start thriving until after the southern regions were in dramatic collapse).
- Pimpus 7y agoInteresting article claiming that the Maltese civilization is much older than believed. It goes into the politics of archeology as well: https://grahamhancock.com/reedijkl1/ https://grahamhancock.com/reedijkl1/ If you find the revised date hard to believe, take a look at this: https://6abc.com/science/9000-year-old-city-unearthed-in-israel/5402961/ https://6abc.com/science/9000-year-old-city-unearthed-in-isr... Also look up Gobekli Tepe.
- flukus 7y agoHancock is a crank that thinks Atlantis existed in Antarctica. Just as fascinating are the seemingly endless list of real civilizations and cultures we seldom here about (often because they're in poorer parts of the world). Trypillian is one of my favorites ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucuteni%E2%80%93Trypillia_culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucuteni%E2%80%93Trypillia_cul...) but a good starting point for others is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistory#By_region https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistory#By_region
- Mediterraneo10 7y ago> Hancock is a crank that thinks Atlantis existed in Antarctica. To be fair, it must be pointed out that the linked article, though hosted at the domain of the crank Hancock, was written by another author. That other author, however, is a legal translator by profession and only decided to dabble in Maltese archeology, so she is hardly any better.
- fit2rule 7y agoHe's not a crank, he's a journalist. Its his job as a journalist to generate interest in the subject - and in that regard, Hancock has done a lot to bring people into the subject who otherwise would've been ignoring it for the authorities ..
- keypusher 7y ago> Hancock is a crank that thinks Atlantis existed in Antarctica. Hancock claims to have been misrepresented about this by the BBC in an interview many years ago, he explains it here [0]. I think if you asked him today, he would say the most likely location for the ruins of Atlantis is somewhere off the coast between southwest Spain [1] and the Celtic Shelf [2]. While certainly outside the mainstream, that is not an unreasonable hypothesis. In my experience, when you start to really research ancient civilizations you often find the mainstream view a bit unsatisfactory. In searching for alternate explanations however, you quickly end up in the land of fringe theories. Hancock often presents these ideas in a more favorable light than what the evidence supports, but there’s also some good history mixed in and he doesn’t go off into ancient aliens territory like many of the people who write about these topics. [0] https://grahamhancock.com/horizon-antarctica/ https://grahamhancock.com/horizon-antarctica/ [1] https://grahamhancock.com/daughtreyp1/ https://grahamhancock.com/daughtreyp1/ [2] https://grahamhancock.com/crispdanatlantis/ https://grahamhancock.com/crispdanatlantis/
- reedwolf 7y agoArticle says that the islanders ate almost no fish. Isn't that strange for an island-based people in the Med?
- bleuarff 7y agoIt's not unique. Sardinia is another mediterranean island where people relied on cattles much more than fish for food.
- poelzi 7y agoLots of civilizations around that time collapapsed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRcu-ysocX4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRcu-ysocX4
- spodek 7y ago> these people understood the importance of soil management to fend off starvation So they were in some ways more advanced than modern U.S.