11 ms·

What it’s like to own an electric car

73 points by kaboro 7y ago

Faaak 7y ago
I live in a small european city, and thus we bought a second hand "Renault Twizy" with my SO. It's a small car: 2 seater, 80km of range, and a top speed of 110 km/hour (when modded) on the highway. People always think it's a stupid choice: "But it's slow; but you can't go far with it". The reality is that it's perfect for us: there's no maintenance (apart from the wheels, as the regen is top notch) and it fits everywhere. We rarely do more than 80km round-trip anyways. And when we do (maybe twice a year), then we rent a car for ~80CHF. The charge is quick (3hours), and cheap (1CHF for 6kWh). I love it
- wil421 7y ago
  A lot of people would not buy an electric car if it meant they would have to rent a car to do long trips. Why would I pay for a car and then have to rent another car? My wife and I need a car that can travel 6 hours (350+ miles\550km) 3-5 times a year. There is a super charger out of the way where my wife’s sister goes to college. It would make a 20-30 bearable so we can make the journey with some charge leftover. One of our vacation spots has a destination charger at an Embassy Suites nearby. Its likely too busy on holidays to use. Tesla Model 3 is the only one that fits our needs and budget. I’m very carious about a Tesla and we might end up with a Q5 instead.
  - archi42 7y ago
    I have a hybrid (2013 Volvo V60 D6), and I really like the car itself with it's three modes, Pure, Hybrid and Power (Pure feels like a BEV with a tiny 40km battery; Hybrid is mostly like my previous car, just 15 years younger; Power is pretty pointless for daily driving, but it's quite fun to "feel" the combined 285hp). BUT: Every single time I drive on Diesel, I feel like I should have gone with a pure electric car: Driving on battery just has a much better feel to it. That's with a 70hp electric engine (not much for a 2t car) and a really well behaved 215hp diesel engine (it only "roars" when it delivers a lot of power, but during normal driving it's calm). The point is: Don't go with the Q5 Hybrid if you can avoid it ;-) If you can afford it, maybe lease a cheap/nice car for a year (or two) and see what the BEV market has to offer then. You won't regret it (and worst case: Save some money by buying a Q5 as leasing return).
    - wil421 7y ago
      It would be nice to wait for the Audi EV offerings. I might have 12 months to wait but with a baby on the way I need a reliable car. Our 2004 Corolla is on its way out.
    - leetcrew 7y ago
      some diesels can be quite nice. I had a golf tdi for a while. the engine was basically silent at highway speeds, and it was honestly a bit better for city driving than my hot hatch. too bad it turned out to be illegal. I agree with you on the Q5 though, but only because it's too big.
  - Faaak 7y ago
    > Why would I pay for a car and then have to rent another car? In my case (and as said in the article): because electric cars (at least mine which was second-hand) are cheap and maintenance free.
  - WorldMaker 7y ago
    > Why would I pay for a car and then have to rent another car? I had a miser of an uncle that did lots of long road trips, but always rented cars for them, once impressionably do a back of an envelope costs breakdown of putting long road trip mileage on a personal vehicle versus per-trip rentals. Even assuming both cars got equivalent mileage (my uncle was doing math with comparable ICE sedans two decades ago or so), the maintenance subsidy of dipping into a rental fleet was much cheaper than the long term maintenance cost on a personal vehicle. Even if you think my uncle's math was off one way or the other, I feel like it should be pointed out that "rent a car for long trips" isn't a new attitude unique to electric vehicle owners, and people have advocated it for a long time. Similarly, my current employer and at least one of my past employers highly discourages using personal vehicles for long work trips, and beyond just the obvious liability issues, such employers have made sure to point out very similar logic to my uncle's that the increased miles on your vehicle is rarely worth the long term maintenance costs when rental companies have cheaper maintenance costs, because they scale maintenance across a fleet rather than a single vehicle charged "retail" costs.
    - arbitrary_name 7y ago
      Yes, but loaded in the rental car cost besides a profit margin is a wide range of other costs not borne by a private vehicle owner. I understand the broad concept but focusing on maintenance costs seems a bit odd when you are footing the bill for sales, marketing, rent etc. Whether these outweigh the cost efficiencies of fleet maintenance is an interesting question, though.
    - danbolt 7y ago
      I live in a larger North American city and short-term rentals via companies like Car2Go are much more cost-effective than owning a car for me. Given, I'm childless in a city and rent so I could understand why a parent would potentially want one where I live.
    - Gibbon1 7y ago
      I know multiple people that own a car and will rent something for long trips. A lot of that is for peace of mind and being able to rent exactly what they need. Peace of mind is they don't worry the car will break down. And they can rent a car that is large enough or small enough for that particular trip. One trip it's them for a weekend. Other trip it's them and four other people for a week. I've noticed that people that do this tend not to be 'car people'
  - derekp7 7y ago
    Most car owners have no problem renting a vehicle on a trip, at least when they fly out somewhere. Trips almost 100% renting (hotel room, chef services [restaurants], seat on the plane, car, limo to/from airport). Once in that mindset, it is much easier to rent a car for shorter trips.
  - Slimbo 7y ago
    > Why would I pay for a car and then have to rent another car? Because it makes sense to do it this way financially. I live very close to work, and commute about 10 miles a day. Once or twice a year I want to drive a few hundred miles, so it makes much more sense to rent a long range car for this than buy one.
    - OJFord 7y ago
      I don't think GP was criticising you - it makes perfect sense. 'Most people' just wouldn't consider it, or would do something that makes less sense anyway.
- fit2rule 7y ago
  >"But it's slow; but you can't go far with it" I ride an electric moped, which has the exact affliction as described - but here in Vienna, this is of no consequence. I am constantly catching up with the fast overpowered auto's on the road, sitting at the lights, and maneuver in front of them regardless of how fast they overtook me at the previous stop. Its really a rabbit/tortoise situation - and in the end, I get to the same destinations in the same time frame, albeit with a drastically reduced carbon footprint, since I charge my batteries from solar ... I think once people get a taste of electric transportation, especially mopeds/bikes, it becomes very clear: the future is electric. Personally, I'll take slow electric over internal combustion any day. Its a huge improvement in life quality.
jaclaz 7y ago
The Twizy is vey nice, but it is not an electric car (it is of course, but not one would think of that being an electric car). https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/twizy/dimensions.html https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/twizy/dimens... It is more like a bike with 4 wheels, or if you prefer it is as much a car as the Isetta was a car: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isetta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isetta While it does surely fulfill the needs of someone living in a small EU city (and that needs not to commute for work) it is not IMHO really comparable to a car. BTW, I guess it depends on the country, here in Italy you surely cannot get on highways with it (as much as you cannot get on them with an Isetta or with an original FIAT 500), but the issue - at least in theory - is that a number of "main" motorways have the same highway limits AND that a number of city by-passes are categorized as "urban highway": Italian but understandable via Google translate: https://twizyblog.wordpress.com/2012/07/09/limiti-di-circolazione-con-twizy/ https://twizyblog.wordpress.com/2012/07/09/limiti-di-circola...
- ZeroGravitas 7y ago
  An electric car homage to the Isetta: https://microlino-car.com/en/microlino https://microlino-car.com/en/microlino Notably states "this is not a car" about half way down.
  - jaclaz 7y ago
    Nice and (unlike the Twizy in its default configuration) it doesn't rain inside it. And additionally it says "THE IDEAL MIX BETWEEN MOTORBIKE AND CAR." From the FAQ's: What number plate do I need for my Microlino? The Microlino is an L7e vehicle and therefore requires the same format as a motorcycle. Though it seems "borderline" with weight, I seem to remember that - unless there is some new norm/exception for electric vehicles - the limit is 450 Kg (which is what the Twizy weights): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Twizy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Twizy The Microlino is seemingly produced by Tazzari in Italy (they make other smallish electric vehicles): https://www.tazzari-zero.com/gamma-citycar-elettriche/ https://www.tazzari-zero.com/gamma-citycar-elettriche/
intopieces 7y ago
The most impactful way municipalities could encourage EV adoption would be to subsidize the installation of chargers at work. For most people - especially if they have an ICE at home for the weekend - this would eliminate the need for costly home installation and charger hunting
- Retra 7y ago
  How much does a home installation cost?
  - intopieces 7y ago
    Around $2600 plus the cost of electricity. Not viable for renters or apartment dwellers, and not a good candidate for subsidy since it would be used by 1-2 cars at most.
    - rtkwe 7y ago
      Local governments could subsidize installing 'at least x per y units' in a complex and increase the number as EVs get more and more popular. On a more hands off approach when they do start taking hold among more of the renting segment available EV parking will become a selling point. Subsidizing them would help get over that initial 'I rent so I won't have any where to charge normally' problem with EVs (ignoring they're out of the price range of many renters currently).
    - jm4 7y ago
      How is it that much and where is it that much? I paid a fraction of that.
      - intopieces 7y ago
        Austin, TX apparently. FTA: “Level Two is a 240 volt socket, which are the weirdo-looking ones you see for your washer or dryer or some kinds of ovens. This is a much faster connection, adding 20-25 miles per hour, but most garages don’t have them, so you need to get an electrician to install them (that’s $2,000 right there) and then you need to buy the charger itself (usually about $600, though there are often rebates for this sort of thing).”
p_roz 7y ago
The point about the range of most cars meeting maximal needs reminds me of when some people buy a vacation home vs renting. People are willing to pay a premium to know for certain that something is available for them to use on a whim, even if they would never do so. There’s something about the increased flexibility and redundancy afforded by long range capability.
- leetcrew 7y ago
  I don't think it's quite the same as buying a vacation home. I think having everything in the house be "the way they left it" is a much bigger motivation than being able to visit whenever they want. at least, this is what people with second homes tell me. this is actually closer to why I would want a car with a longer range. I realize I could just rent something if I need to drive a longer distance, but I like my car and it wouldn't be there when I arrived.
  - jacobush 7y ago
    Yep - we get more utility out of our stuff than is easy to explain. Many things give comfort and are not just about miles or money.
- m463 7y ago
  But people make huge strategic mistakes in their life because of "might". Basically it's hoarding behavior. I might need this kayak, so it'll take up space in my life as I move it from apartment to condo to home for the next 20 years. Storage units are full of these mistakes. I think some EV manufacturers (Fiat?) tried to alleviate this by offering rental cars for a certain number of days per year to people who bought their cars. (that said after driving an electric car renting a gas car seems sort of like copping out - silly strategy)
  - ggm 7y ago
    that said after driving an electric car renting a gas car seems sort of like copping out - silly strategy) If you meant "they should rent high range bigger battery stack cars" I agree. The heinous cost of owning huge kWh battery for occasional use is silly. But fits MAKE ice cars so a cheap coverage for range is rental of an ice for the agency doing this model.
Mikeb85 7y ago
Long range is a must for me. I live downtown so don't need to commute, but drive out to the mountains at least a dozen times per year. Long-range driving is probably 2/3 of my total KMs, most of it in places with no EV infrastructure. Hell, I've had range anxiety before with an ICE vehicle (topping up at the 'last' gas station even if I'm 3/4 full). I really wish hydrogen-electric or EVs with an on-board generator caught on. Having a city-only car is a waste of time when you don't commute, or if you commute with public transit (which I did when living in the suburbs anyway).
- kardos 7y ago
  Sounds like you could dispense with owning a car and rent/carshare for those dozen trips per year.
  - Mikeb85 7y ago
    Maybe, but it's paid off and my current costs are ~3k/year. A rental wouldn't be any cheaper and would be far, far less convenient.
- thebigspacefuck 7y ago
  Aren’t plug-in hybrids basically an EV with an on-board generator?
  - Mikeb85 7y ago
    You'd think, but most have lacklustre electric engines and shitty EV range.
mikestew 7y ago
From just the headline, I thought to myself, "aww, isn't that cute, someone got a new electric car. Let's read the insights they gathered that us old-timer EV owners already know." I've owned a Leaf for eight years, and it was worth a read. The first half, if you already own an EV, is blah, blah, blah. But there were some good insights in the second half, including that you might not need a Level 2 charger in your garage, a (US 120V) Level 1 might do. I will say that one might be capable of installing a 240V outlet oneself and save $2000. But most insightful were the observations of how the whole system is "rigged" (for lack of a better word) for ICEs. A lot of the poo-pooing of EVs would go away if we didn't build a system that assumes one will plop their ass in a emissions-spewing two-ton wheelchair to go get a quart of milk.
- kingnothing 7y ago
  L2 chargers aren't that expensive to install. I paid an electrician $300 to run a line from my fuse box to garage and install the outlet. Then the actual charger, a Siemens VersiCharge, is $450. I still need to do a bit of drywall repair from where the electrician had to cut to run the line, but that's trivial.
- alasdair_ 7y ago
  >I will say that one might be capable of installing a 240V outlet oneself and save $2000. It took us fifteen minutes (excluding the run to home depot for the socket, breaker, wire and a steel pipe) to run a new 240v socket from our electrical panel in the garage to a few feet away from it. I can't imagine ever spending $2000 on the installation of a single 240V socket right next to the panel.
  - erikpukinskis 7y ago
    We don’t know it was next to the panel.
  - hodr 7y ago
    In my case the panel is in the basement and about 50 feet away. More importantly, I would need to be upgraded to 200 amp service which my older house doesn't have. So well over 2k.
rad_gruchalski 7y ago
„But I would say that our family makes a 200+ mile trip, oh, about 6-8 times a year, 400 miles round trip. So that’s, at most, 3,200 miles of long-distance driving a year.” Wow, I took a leasing car 3 months ago, done 9600km since. Living in a not so rural area outside of Aachen, Germany.
viburnum 7y ago
I got halfway through and thought, “good lord, cars are kind of a dumb idea when you think about it,” so thumbs up to the author. Cars mostly solve the problems created by everyone else having cars.
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  I read an article on the ill effects of cars dated from 1967. I thought it would be very dated but it was spot on. A car is great when you're one of the few that has them. They suck when everyone does. But then not having a car sucks worse.
woodandsteel 7y ago
As far as chargers go, new ones are being added all the time, and in 5 years max you will find them everywhere, including a lot of apartment building parking lots.
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  I think with apartments, there will be a tipping point where landlords will have to install them in order to keep their apartments competitive.
GlenTheMachine 7y ago
I bought a used 2017 Leaf a few months ago, and it’s been great. I commute 75-90 miles per day depending on the route I use. There are no chargers at work (which is a military installation). The Leaf is technically rated at 95 miles range, but I am getting 120 out of it. However, the Level 1 charging wasn’t going to cut it. I would fully charge the car over the weekend, but I’d never quite get back to full during the week, and would have to track down a DC fast charger on Thursday. Which are quite expensive, actually; the cost is equivalent to the amount gasoline would cost for the same number of miles you get. Installed a Level 2 charger (for $2000) and since then there’s been no problem. I do have other vehicles, but given how much less expensive the Leaf is to drive than my previous ride (a Honda Fit) if I didn’t it would absolutely make financial sense to rent a car the five or six times a year I make road trips. The car is so inexpensive to drive that it actually makes more sense for us to park my wife’s fully paid off F150 and get her a Leaf as well. The amount we’re spending on gas and repairs on the truck is more than the monthly payment on the car loan for the Leaf plus the electricity.
- RickJWagner 7y ago
  Wow. When the 'expensive' vehicle is a Fit, that's saying something.
  - GlenTheMachine 7y ago
    I was spending about $130 a month on gas for the Fit. It didn’t break down much but at 130,000 it needed both front axle bearings replaced. And of course it needed belts, oil changes every 10,000 miles, and brake pads and rotors every 30,000 miles or so. The Leaf costs me $30 a month in electrons.
    - gambiting 7y ago
      I mean, not that you're wrong or anything but the leaf also needs annual service which isn't any cheaper than that for a petrol vehicle even though there's no oil change to be done, and it will eventually need new brake pads and rotors too. Same with suspension bits, those things will deteriorate exactly the same as they would on an ICE vehicle.
gok 7y ago
I find it very similar to the experience I had with a digital camera around 1998 or so. It was often less convenient than film; you couldn't just buy more film at every corner store. The photo->computer download process was honestly a bit of a pain, as was buying enough storage space. Many people in those days wanted prints, which was much less convenient. But it was pretty clear that it was the future after a few months of living with it. Peak film was around 2001; I suspect peak ICE will be 2025 or so. (There's a further analogy to be made here with smartphones and autonomous ride sharing EVs)
Lendal 7y ago
For an electrician to install an outlet in your garage is TWO THOUSAND DOLLARS?! If you paid that, you got mega ripped off. That's an order of magnitude greater than it should cost.
- GlenTheMachine 7y ago
  No. At least not in my case. The electrician had to install an extra breaker in an auxiliary box in the basement, then run 30 feet of conduit to get the 240v line out of the house. The price of having a charger installed varies tremendously depending on where it needs to go and where your house’s breaker box is located relative to that.
  - derekp7 7y ago
    You know, conduit is less than $3.50 for a 10 ft section last I bought some. Fittings are another dollar or so each, and I can't see 30 ft of copper wire costing 2 grand. So you are paying mostly for the electrification's time. If there is a lot more work involved, and if I lived in an area where I wasn't allowed to do my own electrical work, I'd at least dig the trench myself and take care of pounding a whole through the foundation wall if needed.
    - GlenTheMachine 7y ago
      There’s no question I was paying for his time. I’ll do my own electrical, mostly, but not 240. That stuff will kill you.
      - icebraining 7y ago
        That's a bit paranoid; plenty of Europeans with our 220V lines do our own electrical, and there are very few domestic deaths by electrocution.
        ben_bai 7y ago
        Nitpicking: 230V +-10%, so on a good day it can be as high as 253V. But yes most people will work on it for their own, but shy away from 400V outlets.
dawnerd 7y ago
I just got an e-Golf on a really good deal (thanks to slickdeals pointing out you can get 10k off the price). At first was worried, but that's all gone away. I've gone this whole week without even charging it and the included 120v charger over the weekend works just fine for my use case. I've only used a public charger once and that was the first day owning it since the charger at the dealer wasn't working right.
ojosilva 7y ago
> Would I recommend buying an electric car? This is a bit like asking if someone should buy a computer. The answer is, “Probably – but what do you need it for?” I'd say it's more like recommending to buy stock in something you're already invested in. "Hey, the stock is going up, but it will go much higher if you (and your friends) buy it too!" The more people buy/use EV the better the infrastructure around us, the better the market, prices and models to choose from. And better for the environment. Besides, trust me, driving an EV feels like "the future", if you're into that kind of thing. My wife and I have invested in a PHEV vehicle, a Kia Niro (55km e-range, plus a ~40L gas tank), for the next 5 years (a lease) and we put a charger in our front door. We live in a townhouse with no garage but we park it on the street in front. She drives it everyday 45km to-from work and it works great, 98% of the time all-electric except for the long range roadtrips where the gas kicks in. Still, the Niro is a quite efficient hybrid when the battery runs out. We are saving about 1500€/year on gas compared to her previous tiny compact car.
Fradow 7y ago
The most important takeaway is not all the rambling on the EV, but the conclusion. I live in one of those dense cities (Paris), with bike lanes and good public transportation, with several micromobile electric transportation offerings, and it's great! For most people living there, buying a car just wouldn't cross their mind. Parking is hard to find, stupidely expensive (as it should be), roads are congested, and shrinking (thanks to our mayor actions), and cars upkeep is prohibitive. Most people do take public transportation to vacations as well. I'm in the minority, borrowing (I'd loan otherwise) an ICE vehicle for holidays, and I'm very happy with that. While some people think EV are the second coming of cars, I'm starting to question their ecological benefits. Sure, they aren't burning fossil fuels to move every single day. But they still need batteries, in high quantities, for which the current method of production isn't exactly ecological. Plus they need lots of metal/plastics. Not ecological. Then you still need roads and those roads maintenance. Not ecological as well. While I love EV for their low pollution and low noise, I still think we should probably focus on not using cars in the first place unless there really isn't any other choice.
- woodandsteel 7y ago
  Last year about 70 million automobiles were produced, and there are something like a billion of them in the world. They must be replaced with EV's as soon as possible. It would be great to get people off of cars, but that would take decades, and EV's are here already. Also for many applications like trucks you have to have individual vehicles, and they need to be EV's rather than ICE's. Any damage to the environment from EV's is outweighed at least 10 times over by the damage that ICE's do.
11thEarlOfMar 7y ago
Lost me at "Most people do not need a 270 range car." Most people where? We're in the US. Weekends frequently include short road trips, up to 150 miles each way. I've put 30,000 miles on my M3, with 325 mile range, usually gets me there and back without charging. And even for daily commuting, once in a while I forget to plug it in when I get home. The range means 'no penalty' as I can get there and back 2x on one full charge. Anyway, for those who love to drive and like to roam on weekends, a 135 mile range would kind of suck.
- edent 7y ago
  Have some citations which I randomly found - https://newsroom.aaa.com/2015/04/new-study-reveals-much-motorists-drive/ https://newsroom.aaa.com/2015/04/new-study-reveals-much-moto... and http://www.solarjourneyusa.com/EVdistanceAnalysis7.php http://www.solarjourneyusa.com/EVdistanceAnalysis7.php My question to you is - how often do you drive for three hours without stopping? Either for going to the toilet, or just to stretch your leg. I occasionally drive > 200 miles in the UK. Literally every motorway service station here has a rapid charger (50kW+) which will fill your battery in 30 minutes.
  - 11thEarlOfMar 7y ago
    You are correct that I seldom drive 3 hours without stopping. However, as a real example, I'll drive from San Jose to Healdsburg on a day trip. That is 114 miles each way and I can make the round trip without charging at all. I pay 12 cents/KWh at home. 26 cents at a super charger. With 325 mile range, I get the savings and no anxiety about finding a charger and then finding something to do for 30 minutes. I could likely optimize it by trying to find a charger near an eatery or place of interest, but it's nice to not have that additional thought and research process. Just determine it's within easy round trip range and forget about it.
- everdrive 7y ago
  Most Americans are also 2-car families. Once we can afford it, my daily commuter will be electric, while my partner's car will be a traditional ICE vehicle. We'll take it on the long weekend trips without wasting as much money (or CO2) on the commute.

73 points by kaboro 7y ago

I live in a small european city, and thus we bought a second hand "Renault Twizy" with my SO. It's a small car: 2 seater, 80km of range, and a top speed of 110 km/hour (when modded) on the highway. People always think it's a stupid choice: "But it's slow; but you can't go far with it". The reality is that it's perfect for us: there's no maintenance (apart from the wheels, as the regen is top notch) and it fits everywhere. We rarely do more than 80km round-trip anyways. And when we do (maybe twice a year), then we rent a car for ~80CHF. The charge is quick (3hours), and cheap (1CHF for 6kWh). I love it

wil421 7y ago
A lot of people would not buy an electric car if it meant they would have to rent a car to do long trips. Why would I pay for a car and then have to rent another car? My wife and I need a car that can travel 6 hours (350+ miles\550km) 3-5 times a year. There is a super charger out of the way where my wife’s sister goes to college. It would make a 20-30 bearable so we can make the journey with some charge leftover. One of our vacation spots has a destination charger at an Embassy Suites nearby. Its likely too busy on holidays to use. Tesla Model 3 is the only one that fits our needs and budget. I’m very carious about a Tesla and we might end up with a Q5 instead.
- archi42 7y ago
  I have a hybrid (2013 Volvo V60 D6), and I really like the car itself with it's three modes, Pure, Hybrid and Power (Pure feels like a BEV with a tiny 40km battery; Hybrid is mostly like my previous car, just 15 years younger; Power is pretty pointless for daily driving, but it's quite fun to "feel" the combined 285hp). BUT: Every single time I drive on Diesel, I feel like I should have gone with a pure electric car: Driving on battery just has a much better feel to it. That's with a 70hp electric engine (not much for a 2t car) and a really well behaved 215hp diesel engine (it only "roars" when it delivers a lot of power, but during normal driving it's calm). The point is: Don't go with the Q5 Hybrid if you can avoid it ;-) If you can afford it, maybe lease a cheap/nice car for a year (or two) and see what the BEV market has to offer then. You won't regret it (and worst case: Save some money by buying a Q5 as leasing return).
  - wil421 7y ago
    It would be nice to wait for the Audi EV offerings. I might have 12 months to wait but with a baby on the way I need a reliable car. Our 2004 Corolla is on its way out.
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    some diesels can be quite nice. I had a golf tdi for a while. the engine was basically silent at highway speeds, and it was honestly a bit better for city driving than my hot hatch. too bad it turned out to be illegal. I agree with you on the Q5 though, but only because it's too big.
- Faaak 7y ago
  > Why would I pay for a car and then have to rent another car? In my case (and as said in the article): because electric cars (at least mine which was second-hand) are cheap and maintenance free.
- WorldMaker 7y ago
  > Why would I pay for a car and then have to rent another car? I had a miser of an uncle that did lots of long road trips, but always rented cars for them, once impressionably do a back of an envelope costs breakdown of putting long road trip mileage on a personal vehicle versus per-trip rentals. Even assuming both cars got equivalent mileage (my uncle was doing math with comparable ICE sedans two decades ago or so), the maintenance subsidy of dipping into a rental fleet was much cheaper than the long term maintenance cost on a personal vehicle. Even if you think my uncle's math was off one way or the other, I feel like it should be pointed out that "rent a car for long trips" isn't a new attitude unique to electric vehicle owners, and people have advocated it for a long time. Similarly, my current employer and at least one of my past employers highly discourages using personal vehicles for long work trips, and beyond just the obvious liability issues, such employers have made sure to point out very similar logic to my uncle's that the increased miles on your vehicle is rarely worth the long term maintenance costs when rental companies have cheaper maintenance costs, because they scale maintenance across a fleet rather than a single vehicle charged "retail" costs.
  - arbitrary_name 7y ago
    Yes, but loaded in the rental car cost besides a profit margin is a wide range of other costs not borne by a private vehicle owner. I understand the broad concept but focusing on maintenance costs seems a bit odd when you are footing the bill for sales, marketing, rent etc. Whether these outweigh the cost efficiencies of fleet maintenance is an interesting question, though.
  - danbolt 7y ago
    I live in a larger North American city and short-term rentals via companies like Car2Go are much more cost-effective than owning a car for me. Given, I'm childless in a city and rent so I could understand why a parent would potentially want one where I live.
  - Gibbon1 7y ago
    I know multiple people that own a car and will rent something for long trips. A lot of that is for peace of mind and being able to rent exactly what they need. Peace of mind is they don't worry the car will break down. And they can rent a car that is large enough or small enough for that particular trip. One trip it's them for a weekend. Other trip it's them and four other people for a week. I've noticed that people that do this tend not to be 'car people'
- derekp7 7y ago
  Most car owners have no problem renting a vehicle on a trip, at least when they fly out somewhere. Trips almost 100% renting (hotel room, chef services [restaurants], seat on the plane, car, limo to/from airport). Once in that mindset, it is much easier to rent a car for shorter trips.
- Slimbo 7y ago
  > Why would I pay for a car and then have to rent another car? Because it makes sense to do it this way financially. I live very close to work, and commute about 10 miles a day. Once or twice a year I want to drive a few hundred miles, so it makes much more sense to rent a long range car for this than buy one.
  - OJFord 7y ago
    I don't think GP was criticising you - it makes perfect sense. 'Most people' just wouldn't consider it, or would do something that makes less sense anyway.
fit2rule 7y ago
>"But it's slow; but you can't go far with it" I ride an electric moped, which has the exact affliction as described - but here in Vienna, this is of no consequence. I am constantly catching up with the fast overpowered auto's on the road, sitting at the lights, and maneuver in front of them regardless of how fast they overtook me at the previous stop. Its really a rabbit/tortoise situation - and in the end, I get to the same destinations in the same time frame, albeit with a drastically reduced carbon footprint, since I charge my batteries from solar ... I think once people get a taste of electric transportation, especially mopeds/bikes, it becomes very clear: the future is electric. Personally, I'll take slow electric over internal combustion any day. Its a huge improvement in life quality.

jaclaz 7y ago

The Twizy is vey nice, but it is not an electric car (it is of course, but not one would think of that being an electric car). https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/twizy/dimensions.html https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/twizy/dimens... It is more like a bike with 4 wheels, or if you prefer it is as much a car as the Isetta was a car: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isetta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isetta While it does surely fulfill the needs of someone living in a small EU city (and that needs not to commute for work) it is not IMHO really comparable to a car. BTW, I guess it depends on the country, here in Italy you surely cannot get on highways with it (as much as you cannot get on them with an Isetta or with an original FIAT 500), but the issue - at least in theory - is that a number of "main" motorways have the same highway limits AND that a number of city by-passes are categorized as "urban highway": Italian but understandable via Google translate: https://twizyblog.wordpress.com/2012/07/09/limiti-di-circolazione-con-twizy/ https://twizyblog.wordpress.com/2012/07/09/limiti-di-circola...

ZeroGravitas 7y ago
An electric car homage to the Isetta: https://microlino-car.com/en/microlino https://microlino-car.com/en/microlino Notably states "this is not a car" about half way down.
- jaclaz 7y ago
  Nice and (unlike the Twizy in its default configuration) it doesn't rain inside it. And additionally it says "THE IDEAL MIX BETWEEN MOTORBIKE AND CAR." From the FAQ's: What number plate do I need for my Microlino? The Microlino is an L7e vehicle and therefore requires the same format as a motorcycle. Though it seems "borderline" with weight, I seem to remember that - unless there is some new norm/exception for electric vehicles - the limit is 450 Kg (which is what the Twizy weights): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Twizy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Twizy The Microlino is seemingly produced by Tazzari in Italy (they make other smallish electric vehicles): https://www.tazzari-zero.com/gamma-citycar-elettriche/ https://www.tazzari-zero.com/gamma-citycar-elettriche/

intopieces 7y ago

The most impactful way municipalities could encourage EV adoption would be to subsidize the installation of chargers at work. For most people - especially if they have an ICE at home for the weekend - this would eliminate the need for costly home installation and charger hunting

Retra 7y ago
How much does a home installation cost?
- intopieces 7y ago
  Around $2600 plus the cost of electricity. Not viable for renters or apartment dwellers, and not a good candidate for subsidy since it would be used by 1-2 cars at most.
  - rtkwe 7y ago
    Local governments could subsidize installing 'at least x per y units' in a complex and increase the number as EVs get more and more popular. On a more hands off approach when they do start taking hold among more of the renting segment available EV parking will become a selling point. Subsidizing them would help get over that initial 'I rent so I won't have any where to charge normally' problem with EVs (ignoring they're out of the price range of many renters currently).
  - jm4 7y ago
    How is it that much and where is it that much? I paid a fraction of that.
    - intopieces 7y ago
      Austin, TX apparently. FTA: “Level Two is a 240 volt socket, which are the weirdo-looking ones you see for your washer or dryer or some kinds of ovens. This is a much faster connection, adding 20-25 miles per hour, but most garages don’t have them, so you need to get an electrician to install them (that’s $2,000 right there) and then you need to buy the charger itself (usually about $600, though there are often rebates for this sort of thing).”

p_roz 7y ago

The point about the range of most cars meeting maximal needs reminds me of when some people buy a vacation home vs renting. People are willing to pay a premium to know for certain that something is available for them to use on a whim, even if they would never do so. There’s something about the increased flexibility and redundancy afforded by long range capability.

leetcrew 7y ago
I don't think it's quite the same as buying a vacation home. I think having everything in the house be "the way they left it" is a much bigger motivation than being able to visit whenever they want. at least, this is what people with second homes tell me. this is actually closer to why I would want a car with a longer range. I realize I could just rent something if I need to drive a longer distance, but I like my car and it wouldn't be there when I arrived.
- jacobush 7y ago
  Yep - we get more utility out of our stuff than is easy to explain. Many things give comfort and are not just about miles or money.
m463 7y ago
But people make huge strategic mistakes in their life because of "might". Basically it's hoarding behavior. I might need this kayak, so it'll take up space in my life as I move it from apartment to condo to home for the next 20 years. Storage units are full of these mistakes. I think some EV manufacturers (Fiat?) tried to alleviate this by offering rental cars for a certain number of days per year to people who bought their cars. (that said after driving an electric car renting a gas car seems sort of like copping out - silly strategy)
- ggm 7y ago
  that said after driving an electric car renting a gas car seems sort of like copping out - silly strategy) If you meant "they should rent high range bigger battery stack cars" I agree. The heinous cost of owning huge kWh battery for occasional use is silly. But fits MAKE ice cars so a cheap coverage for range is rental of an ice for the agency doing this model.

Mikeb85 7y ago

Long range is a must for me. I live downtown so don't need to commute, but drive out to the mountains at least a dozen times per year. Long-range driving is probably 2/3 of my total KMs, most of it in places with no EV infrastructure. Hell, I've had range anxiety before with an ICE vehicle (topping up at the 'last' gas station even if I'm 3/4 full). I really wish hydrogen-electric or EVs with an on-board generator caught on. Having a city-only car is a waste of time when you don't commute, or if you commute with public transit (which I did when living in the suburbs anyway).

kardos 7y ago
Sounds like you could dispense with owning a car and rent/carshare for those dozen trips per year.
- Mikeb85 7y ago
  Maybe, but it's paid off and my current costs are ~3k/year. A rental wouldn't be any cheaper and would be far, far less convenient.
thebigspacefuck 7y ago
Aren’t plug-in hybrids basically an EV with an on-board generator?
- Mikeb85 7y ago
  You'd think, but most have lacklustre electric engines and shitty EV range.

mikestew 7y ago

From just the headline, I thought to myself, "aww, isn't that cute, someone got a new electric car. Let's read the insights they gathered that us old-timer EV owners already know." I've owned a Leaf for eight years, and it was worth a read. The first half, if you already own an EV, is blah, blah, blah. But there were some good insights in the second half, including that you might not need a Level 2 charger in your garage, a (US 120V) Level 1 might do. I will say that one might be capable of installing a 240V outlet oneself and save $2000. But most insightful were the observations of how the whole system is "rigged" (for lack of a better word) for ICEs. A lot of the poo-pooing of EVs would go away if we didn't build a system that assumes one will plop their ass in a emissions-spewing two-ton wheelchair to go get a quart of milk.

kingnothing 7y ago
L2 chargers aren't that expensive to install. I paid an electrician $300 to run a line from my fuse box to garage and install the outlet. Then the actual charger, a Siemens VersiCharge, is $450. I still need to do a bit of drywall repair from where the electrician had to cut to run the line, but that's trivial.
alasdair_ 7y ago
>I will say that one might be capable of installing a 240V outlet oneself and save $2000. It took us fifteen minutes (excluding the run to home depot for the socket, breaker, wire and a steel pipe) to run a new 240v socket from our electrical panel in the garage to a few feet away from it. I can't imagine ever spending $2000 on the installation of a single 240V socket right next to the panel.
- erikpukinskis 7y ago
  We don’t know it was next to the panel.
- hodr 7y ago
  In my case the panel is in the basement and about 50 feet away. More importantly, I would need to be upgraded to 200 amp service which my older house doesn't have. So well over 2k.

rad_gruchalski 7y ago

„But I would say that our family makes a 200+ mile trip, oh, about 6-8 times a year, 400 miles round trip. So that’s, at most, 3,200 miles of long-distance driving a year.” Wow, I took a leasing car 3 months ago, done 9600km since. Living in a not so rural area outside of Aachen, Germany.

viburnum 7y ago

I got halfway through and thought, “good lord, cars are kind of a dumb idea when you think about it,” so thumbs up to the author. Cars mostly solve the problems created by everyone else having cars.

Gibbon1 7y ago
I read an article on the ill effects of cars dated from 1967. I thought it would be very dated but it was spot on. A car is great when you're one of the few that has them. They suck when everyone does. But then not having a car sucks worse.

woodandsteel 7y ago

As far as chargers go, new ones are being added all the time, and in 5 years max you will find them everywhere, including a lot of apartment building parking lots.

Gibbon1 7y ago
I think with apartments, there will be a tipping point where landlords will have to install them in order to keep their apartments competitive.

GlenTheMachine 7y ago

I bought a used 2017 Leaf a few months ago, and it’s been great. I commute 75-90 miles per day depending on the route I use. There are no chargers at work (which is a military installation). The Leaf is technically rated at 95 miles range, but I am getting 120 out of it. However, the Level 1 charging wasn’t going to cut it. I would fully charge the car over the weekend, but I’d never quite get back to full during the week, and would have to track down a DC fast charger on Thursday. Which are quite expensive, actually; the cost is equivalent to the amount gasoline would cost for the same number of miles you get. Installed a Level 2 charger (for $2000) and since then there’s been no problem. I do have other vehicles, but given how much less expensive the Leaf is to drive than my previous ride (a Honda Fit) if I didn’t it would absolutely make financial sense to rent a car the five or six times a year I make road trips. The car is so inexpensive to drive that it actually makes more sense for us to park my wife’s fully paid off F150 and get her a Leaf as well. The amount we’re spending on gas and repairs on the truck is more than the monthly payment on the car loan for the Leaf plus the electricity.

RickJWagner 7y ago
Wow. When the 'expensive' vehicle is a Fit, that's saying something.
- GlenTheMachine 7y ago
  I was spending about $130 a month on gas for the Fit. It didn’t break down much but at 130,000 it needed both front axle bearings replaced. And of course it needed belts, oil changes every 10,000 miles, and brake pads and rotors every 30,000 miles or so. The Leaf costs me $30 a month in electrons.
  - gambiting 7y ago
    I mean, not that you're wrong or anything but the leaf also needs annual service which isn't any cheaper than that for a petrol vehicle even though there's no oil change to be done, and it will eventually need new brake pads and rotors too. Same with suspension bits, those things will deteriorate exactly the same as they would on an ICE vehicle.

gok 7y ago

I find it very similar to the experience I had with a digital camera around 1998 or so. It was often less convenient than film; you couldn't just buy more film at every corner store. The photo->computer download process was honestly a bit of a pain, as was buying enough storage space. Many people in those days wanted prints, which was much less convenient. But it was pretty clear that it was the future after a few months of living with it. Peak film was around 2001; I suspect peak ICE will be 2025 or so. (There's a further analogy to be made here with smartphones and autonomous ride sharing EVs)

Lendal 7y ago

For an electrician to install an outlet in your garage is TWO THOUSAND DOLLARS?! If you paid that, you got mega ripped off. That's an order of magnitude greater than it should cost.

GlenTheMachine 7y ago
No. At least not in my case. The electrician had to install an extra breaker in an auxiliary box in the basement, then run 30 feet of conduit to get the 240v line out of the house. The price of having a charger installed varies tremendously depending on where it needs to go and where your house’s breaker box is located relative to that.
- derekp7 7y ago
  You know, conduit is less than $3.50 for a 10 ft section last I bought some. Fittings are another dollar or so each, and I can't see 30 ft of copper wire costing 2 grand. So you are paying mostly for the electrification's time. If there is a lot more work involved, and if I lived in an area where I wasn't allowed to do my own electrical work, I'd at least dig the trench myself and take care of pounding a whole through the foundation wall if needed.
  - GlenTheMachine 7y ago
    There’s no question I was paying for his time. I’ll do my own electrical, mostly, but not 240. That stuff will kill you.
    - icebraining 7y ago
      That's a bit paranoid; plenty of Europeans with our 220V lines do our own electrical, and there are very few domestic deaths by electrocution.
      - ben_bai 7y ago
        Nitpicking: 230V +-10%, so on a good day it can be as high as 253V. But yes most people will work on it for their own, but shy away from 400V outlets.

dawnerd 7y ago

I just got an e-Golf on a really good deal (thanks to slickdeals pointing out you can get 10k off the price). At first was worried, but that's all gone away. I've gone this whole week without even charging it and the included 120v charger over the weekend works just fine for my use case. I've only used a public charger once and that was the first day owning it since the charger at the dealer wasn't working right.

ojosilva 7y ago

> Would I recommend buying an electric car? This is a bit like asking if someone should buy a computer. The answer is, “Probably – but what do you need it for?” I'd say it's more like recommending to buy stock in something you're already invested in. "Hey, the stock is going up, but it will go much higher if you (and your friends) buy it too!" The more people buy/use EV the better the infrastructure around us, the better the market, prices and models to choose from. And better for the environment. Besides, trust me, driving an EV feels like "the future", if you're into that kind of thing. My wife and I have invested in a PHEV vehicle, a Kia Niro (55km e-range, plus a ~40L gas tank), for the next 5 years (a lease) and we put a charger in our front door. We live in a townhouse with no garage but we park it on the street in front. She drives it everyday 45km to-from work and it works great, 98% of the time all-electric except for the long range roadtrips where the gas kicks in. Still, the Niro is a quite efficient hybrid when the battery runs out. We are saving about 1500€/year on gas compared to her previous tiny compact car.

Fradow 7y ago

The most important takeaway is not all the rambling on the EV, but the conclusion. I live in one of those dense cities (Paris), with bike lanes and good public transportation, with several micromobile electric transportation offerings, and it's great! For most people living there, buying a car just wouldn't cross their mind. Parking is hard to find, stupidely expensive (as it should be), roads are congested, and shrinking (thanks to our mayor actions), and cars upkeep is prohibitive. Most people do take public transportation to vacations as well. I'm in the minority, borrowing (I'd loan otherwise) an ICE vehicle for holidays, and I'm very happy with that. While some people think EV are the second coming of cars, I'm starting to question their ecological benefits. Sure, they aren't burning fossil fuels to move every single day. But they still need batteries, in high quantities, for which the current method of production isn't exactly ecological. Plus they need lots of metal/plastics. Not ecological. Then you still need roads and those roads maintenance. Not ecological as well. While I love EV for their low pollution and low noise, I still think we should probably focus on not using cars in the first place unless there really isn't any other choice.

woodandsteel 7y ago
Last year about 70 million automobiles were produced, and there are something like a billion of them in the world. They must be replaced with EV's as soon as possible. It would be great to get people off of cars, but that would take decades, and EV's are here already. Also for many applications like trucks you have to have individual vehicles, and they need to be EV's rather than ICE's. Any damage to the environment from EV's is outweighed at least 10 times over by the damage that ICE's do.

11thEarlOfMar 7y ago

Lost me at "Most people do not need a 270 range car." Most people where? We're in the US. Weekends frequently include short road trips, up to 150 miles each way. I've put 30,000 miles on my M3, with 325 mile range, usually gets me there and back without charging. And even for daily commuting, once in a while I forget to plug it in when I get home. The range means 'no penalty' as I can get there and back 2x on one full charge. Anyway, for those who love to drive and like to roam on weekends, a 135 mile range would kind of suck.

edent 7y ago
Have some citations which I randomly found - https://newsroom.aaa.com/2015/04/new-study-reveals-much-motorists-drive/ https://newsroom.aaa.com/2015/04/new-study-reveals-much-moto... and http://www.solarjourneyusa.com/EVdistanceAnalysis7.php http://www.solarjourneyusa.com/EVdistanceAnalysis7.php My question to you is - how often do you drive for three hours without stopping? Either for going to the toilet, or just to stretch your leg. I occasionally drive > 200 miles in the UK. Literally every motorway service station here has a rapid charger (50kW+) which will fill your battery in 30 minutes.
- 11thEarlOfMar 7y ago
  You are correct that I seldom drive 3 hours without stopping. However, as a real example, I'll drive from San Jose to Healdsburg on a day trip. That is 114 miles each way and I can make the round trip without charging at all. I pay 12 cents/KWh at home. 26 cents at a super charger. With 325 mile range, I get the savings and no anxiety about finding a charger and then finding something to do for 30 minutes. I could likely optimize it by trying to find a charger near an eatery or place of interest, but it's nice to not have that additional thought and research process. Just determine it's within easy round trip range and forget about it.
everdrive 7y ago
Most Americans are also 2-car families. Once we can afford it, my daily commuter will be electric, while my partner's car will be a traditional ICE vehicle. We'll take it on the long weekend trips without wasting as much money (or CO2) on the commute.