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So this seat has the same poor legroom as others while being much lower, continues to share armrests (but now they're thinner/less useful), and in exchange you

So this seat has the same poor legroom as others while being much lower, continues to share armrests (but now they're thinner/less useful), and in exchange you get a couple of inches of width to compensate in the middle row (while armrests are thinner in all three rows)? Plus the uneven rows make it that much harder to exit/pee from the window seat. Their whole "the passengers will share a single armrest!" idea completely ignores how people work with regards to personal space (plus they installed their annoying "dual height" armrest in rows that don't share armrests, effectively cutting the armrest's length in half for no value at all).

Maximus9000 7y ago
The unwritten rule is that "the middle seat sucks, they get both middle armrests". Sadly, not everyone knows that rule. > "The seat you paid for has borders. Middle-seat elbow ownership ends on the armrests (you’re entitled to both)" https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/travel/article-a-parents-airplane-etiquette-rules-for-other-adults/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/travel/article-a-parent...
- HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
  That was a great read. Thanks!
- metafizikal 7y ago
  For real. I always think of this bit[1] while I'm riding in the middle. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFx1Cpxpx1E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFx1Cpxpx1E
  - Maximus9000 7y ago
    Great bit!
- topmonk 7y ago
  Whoever takes the armrest first gets priority. It may cause your lifetime happiness to have a little more volatility but since everyone has the same random chance of getting the middle seat, still fair.
  - rwc 7y ago
    If you think getting the middle seat is random chance I’ve got news for you.
    - topmonk 7y ago
      Don't keep me waiting
      - RobertRoberts 7y ago
        Go buy a plane ticket right now. Don't even need a credit card to get to "choose a seat" and you will see, all the aisle and window seats are taken by default. You have to pay extra to not get a middle seat. It's actually a bit annoying to have to explain this to you based on your childish reply.
        mikeash 7y ago
        What airline charges extra for non-middle seats? I’ve never seen that.
        sokoloff 7y ago
        Any airline that sells Basic Economy tickets (without seat pre-assignment) does by allowing seat choice for Economy tickets and above.
        snappieT 7y ago
        In fact, Frontier charges more for the middle seat. I assume this is because middle-seaters are likely to be a couple/family wanting to sit together and forced to pay the premium. No solo traveler would willingly purchase a middle seat, so you don't need to optimize for pricing the middle seats for them.
- taneq 7y ago
  Most planes I fly on, the middle seat is not wide enough for them to do anything else. Three full-sized males sitting next to each other will be physically touching shoulders.
- Zenbit_UX 7y ago
  Didn't know this was a thing, I feel bad now. I've probably taken someone's armrest before who sat in the middle. :(
chrisseaton 7y ago
What do you really want and expect here? They're not going to find extra space out of nowhere, are they? Yes they're just juggling things around. If you don't want to pay any more, there's a limit to what they can do. If you do want to pay more you can already do that! Some flights have four tiers of seating you can pick from depending on what you want and what your budget is.
- frenchman99 7y ago
  In 2018, Air France more than doubled its profit, to 409 million a year. Paying more only gets you so much with these huge airlines. They don't reinvest everything you give them. Their goal is mostly to make more profit or increase share value, especially if publicly traded.
  - JBReefer 7y ago
    409 mm on what revenue? The airline industry is insanely competitive and generally has tiny margins
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - rayiner 7y ago
    Profit in isolation is a meaningless metric in this context. In 2018, Air France KLM carried over 100 million passengers. So the profit is just 4 euro per passenger. That means very small changes in costs per seat can quickly move the company from the black to the red.
    - AmericanChopper 7y ago
      Also, with full service airlines, business class is by far the most profitable use of their square footage. Cheap economy flights are really an extraordinary thing, but they’re never going to be the height of comfort. Personally, whenever I’m flying economy, I’ve mastered the art of simply shutting down any expectation I have of comfort from the moment I arrive in the airport, until I arrive at my destination.
nutjob2 7y ago
"A couple of inches" is seating gold. Although I'm 6'1' I've got relatively short legs and legroom isn't much of a problem, but I have broad shoulders even for my height. That means that if I'm in a narrow middle seat I'm spilling over into the adjoining seats, and there's nothing I can do about it. This is why I try to avoid Boeings - they tend to have narrower seats as a rule. Seat width is something people should be talking about as much as seat pitch.
- Spooky23 7y ago
  Totally. Places screw around with width a lot too. I did a tour of MLB ballparks this spring and was surprised at the width variance between parks and even sections in parks.
mobilemidget 7y ago
This configuration probably wins them 2 seats or something. I doubt it has anything to do passenger comfort; else as you said they would have addressed the armrests issue. I dream of the day that like fat people can have two chairs next to each other, tall people can have the chair in front of them removed for leg space. :+)
OxO4 7y ago
Lowering the seat will also make it quite a bit worse for people with long legs. The height of the usual seats is already too low. It would be better if they raised the middle seat instead but I guess that adds cost/weight.
- magduf 7y ago
  Raising the seat on a small single-aisle plane might have your head bumping into the overhead if you're tall. It'd be nice if the seat height were adjustable, but that would just result in the seats breaking down more often I think. I have long legs, but not that long a torso for my height, so a slightly elevated seat would be nice for me, but other tall men might be miserable.

Maximus9000 7y ago

The unwritten rule is that "the middle seat sucks, they get both middle armrests". Sadly, not everyone knows that rule. > "The seat you paid for has borders. Middle-seat elbow ownership ends on the armrests (you’re entitled to both)" https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/travel/article-a-parents-airplane-etiquette-rules-for-other-adults/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/travel/article-a-parent...

HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
That was a great read. Thanks!
metafizikal 7y ago
For real. I always think of this bit[1] while I'm riding in the middle. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFx1Cpxpx1E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFx1Cpxpx1E
- Maximus9000 7y ago
  Great bit!
topmonk 7y ago
Whoever takes the armrest first gets priority. It may cause your lifetime happiness to have a little more volatility but since everyone has the same random chance of getting the middle seat, still fair.
- rwc 7y ago
  If you think getting the middle seat is random chance I’ve got news for you.
  - topmonk 7y ago
    Don't keep me waiting
    - RobertRoberts 7y ago
      Go buy a plane ticket right now. Don't even need a credit card to get to "choose a seat" and you will see, all the aisle and window seats are taken by default. You have to pay extra to not get a middle seat. It's actually a bit annoying to have to explain this to you based on your childish reply.
      - mikeash 7y ago
        What airline charges extra for non-middle seats? I’ve never seen that.
        sokoloff 7y ago
        Any airline that sells Basic Economy tickets (without seat pre-assignment) does by allowing seat choice for Economy tickets and above.
        snappieT 7y ago
        In fact, Frontier charges more for the middle seat. I assume this is because middle-seaters are likely to be a couple/family wanting to sit together and forced to pay the premium. No solo traveler would willingly purchase a middle seat, so you don't need to optimize for pricing the middle seats for them.
taneq 7y ago
Most planes I fly on, the middle seat is not wide enough for them to do anything else. Three full-sized males sitting next to each other will be physically touching shoulders.
Zenbit_UX 7y ago
Didn't know this was a thing, I feel bad now. I've probably taken someone's armrest before who sat in the middle. :(

chrisseaton 7y ago

What do you really want and expect here? They're not going to find extra space out of nowhere, are they? Yes they're just juggling things around. If you don't want to pay any more, there's a limit to what they can do. If you do want to pay more you can already do that! Some flights have four tiers of seating you can pick from depending on what you want and what your budget is.

frenchman99 7y ago
In 2018, Air France more than doubled its profit, to 409 million a year. Paying more only gets you so much with these huge airlines. They don't reinvest everything you give them. Their goal is mostly to make more profit or increase share value, especially if publicly traded.
- JBReefer 7y ago
  409 mm on what revenue? The airline industry is insanely competitive and generally has tiny margins
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- rayiner 7y ago
  Profit in isolation is a meaningless metric in this context. In 2018, Air France KLM carried over 100 million passengers. So the profit is just 4 euro per passenger. That means very small changes in costs per seat can quickly move the company from the black to the red.
  - AmericanChopper 7y ago
    Also, with full service airlines, business class is by far the most profitable use of their square footage. Cheap economy flights are really an extraordinary thing, but they’re never going to be the height of comfort. Personally, whenever I’m flying economy, I’ve mastered the art of simply shutting down any expectation I have of comfort from the moment I arrive in the airport, until I arrive at my destination.

nutjob2 7y ago

"A couple of inches" is seating gold. Although I'm 6'1' I've got relatively short legs and legroom isn't much of a problem, but I have broad shoulders even for my height. That means that if I'm in a narrow middle seat I'm spilling over into the adjoining seats, and there's nothing I can do about it. This is why I try to avoid Boeings - they tend to have narrower seats as a rule. Seat width is something people should be talking about as much as seat pitch.

Spooky23 7y ago
Totally. Places screw around with width a lot too. I did a tour of MLB ballparks this spring and was surprised at the width variance between parks and even sections in parks.

mobilemidget 7y ago

This configuration probably wins them 2 seats or something. I doubt it has anything to do passenger comfort; else as you said they would have addressed the armrests issue. I dream of the day that like fat people can have two chairs next to each other, tall people can have the chair in front of them removed for leg space. :+)

OxO4 7y ago

Lowering the seat will also make it quite a bit worse for people with long legs. The height of the usual seats is already too low. It would be better if they raised the middle seat instead but I guess that adds cost/weight.

magduf 7y ago
Raising the seat on a small single-aisle plane might have your head bumping into the overhead if you're tall. It'd be nice if the seat height were adjustable, but that would just result in the seats breaking down more often I think. I have long legs, but not that long a torso for my height, so a slightly elevated seat would be nice for me, but other tall men might be miserable.