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Airlines are finally fixing the middle seat
- DisruptiveDave 7y agoAnd the last middle seat in the entire plane? What happens there?
- peteretep 7y agoDo you believe the last seat in a plane is generally completely flush with the galley wall?
- vidanay 7y agoYes
- Guest0918231 7y agoIt's not unusual for the last row on planes to already have limited recline, so there's not an abundance of space behind them.
- DisruptiveDave 7y agoI don't believe it, I've experienced it many times. Zero recline in the last row.
- fergal 7y ago2019 and we're just figuring this out now.
- conanbatt 7y agoMiddle seat delenda est
- jessaustin 7y agoIt's because most people running air travel over the decades had a military background. "You'll sit in straight lines and you'll like it!"
- psim1 7y agoThis works nicely until the guy in the window seat gets up to pee. He runs into, or tugs on, the seat back that is in his way as he tries to exit the row, annoying the occupant of that seat.
- jessaustin 7y agoTFA says this is for commuter flights. No passenger on such a flight should be urinating, but anyone who has a health problem or something should just request an aisle seat.
- topmonk 7y agoIt doesn't say it's for commuter flights, just that those will be the first they'll try them on.
- npongratz 7y agoMaybe there are more expansive plans, but TFA literally says it is for commuter flights: "Designed for commuter flights of only a few hours max, the S1 moves the middle seat a few inches lower than, and back from, the aisle and window seat"
- mikeash 7y ago“A few hours” doesn’t match my understanding of “commuter flight” at all. A few hours can get you clear across the US, and is more than enough time for someone to need to dump ballast.
- npongratz 7y agoOh I totally agree with every point you make. I'm incredibly cynical and pessimistic about the potential for these seats to improve any passenger's experience. I was merely hoping to correct a possible misreading of the article's (literal) contents, which I see in retrospect makes me to inadvertently appear be the subject of xkcd 386 :)
- Someone1234 7y agoSo this seat has the same poor legroom as others while being much lower, continues to share armrests (but now they're thinner/less useful), and in exchange you get a couple of inches of width to compensate in the middle row (while armrests are thinner in all three rows)? Plus the uneven rows make it that much harder to exit/pee from the window seat. Their whole "the passengers will share a single armrest!" idea completely ignores how people work with regards to personal space (plus they installed their annoying "dual height" armrest in rows that don't share armrests, effectively cutting the armrest's length in half for no value at all).
- Maximus9000 7y agoThe unwritten rule is that "the middle seat sucks, they get both middle armrests". Sadly, not everyone knows that rule. > "The seat you paid for has borders. Middle-seat elbow ownership ends on the armrests (you’re entitled to both)" https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/travel/article-a-parents-airplane-etiquette-rules-for-other-adults/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/travel/article-a-parent...
- HeWhoLurksLate 7y agoThat was a great read. Thanks!
- metafizikal 7y agoFor real. I always think of this bit[1] while I'm riding in the middle. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFx1Cpxpx1E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFx1Cpxpx1E
- Maximus9000 7y agoGreat bit!
- topmonk 7y agoWhoever takes the armrest first gets priority. It may cause your lifetime happiness to have a little more volatility but since everyone has the same random chance of getting the middle seat, still fair.
- lhball 7y agoOh great, now anytime the window seat needs the restroom we get a little hug on his / her way.
- jessaustin 7y agoMaybe this new arrangement would make that phenomenon worse, but it already happens now, doesn't it? I've long thought that there should be a sort of grab bar hanging from the overhead locker, like you see on subways, to help people who have difficulty staying balanced while entering and exiting the row.
- HeWhoLurksLate 7y agoThere's generally a lip on the overhead storage locker thingies, and they're definitely load bearing.
- jessaustin 7y agoIt seems like many of the people who need this worst are the least able to flex and reach that lip... also it's hard to reach from the window seat.
- yadaeno 7y agoI see this point being repeatedly brought up. If you have ever flown economy, you will know that it's standard procedure for the middle and aisle seat to move to the aisle if the outer seats have to use the restroom. Even with straight seating there's no way to exit (in economy) without vaulting over multiple people, and this assumes they aren't using tray tables.
- malthaus 7y agoIt still sucks; those changes do not make up for the discomfort. Better than nothing, i guess? But how about addressing the issue economically/psychologically? Make the seat cheaper! People put up with discomfort happily if they think they made a good deal.
- wongarsu 7y agoMy last flight was Ryanair (a European budget airline). It was about $30 for the flight and $5 extra for choosing a seat. Effectively I got the flight 15% cheaper by accepting that I might get a middle seat.
- malthaus 7y agoThe thing is, while you actually end up paying more for a window/aisle seat in the current system and my proposed one, it "feels" better to explicitly pay less for a middle seat. Humans are weird.
- alexhutcheson 7y agoIn your system, your airline would be at a disadvantage when customers are comparison shopping on OTAs, because your displayed price is "price for a window/aisle seat" and your competitors would be displaying "price for a middle seat".
- vidanay 7y agoWhere does that extra width for the middle seat come from? Taken from the window and aisle seat width?
- anticensor 7y agoSlightly narrower corridor.
- wongarsu 7y agoI don't think a single-aisle plane has 6 inches of corridor to spare.
- HeWhoLurksLate 7y agoThat would get people with accessibility issues up in arms fast.
- wongarsu 7y agoFrom the pictures it looks like they might have taken off 3/4 of an inch off each arm rest.
- jonheller 7y agoI would kill for a standard middle seat compared to the middle seat I get stuck in sometimes on my hour long commuter train. It's a three seater that comfortably fits two. Not only is it a tight for for three, but there are no arm rests, meaning you are squeezed shoulder-to-shoulder the whole time. I've taken other trains (notably NYC) that don't seem to have this. Only the MBTA seems cursed with this layout. Wouldn't be a huge problem if the train wasn't standing room only (for at least a half hour) meaning people are squeezed as-is.
- tatersolid 7y agoMetra trains in Chicago have the opposite problem. The standard 2x2 seats in the main floor are way too wide, leaving 8-12 inches between two chubby adults. This results in the aisles being too narrow and everyone getting clobbered with purses and backpacks as passengers move down the aisles. Don’t get me started on the inane layouts of the upper levels of these cars (half forward and half sideways seats, guaranteeing each passenger getting on and off a crowded train car has to trip over 12 sets of legs). The sad thing is that rail cars cost hundreds of thousands and are customized to each railway customer. A bit of cheap mock-up engineering before purchase could allow maybe 10% more passengers per car, and much faster and more pleasant loading and unloading.
- jacknews 7y agoI find the armrests are the main problem - if you get two large or selfish pax on either side who both decide the middle armrest is theirs, you're left with no arm rest at all, or some kind of territorial fight. Fixing that would go a long way to equity. Or just charge less for the middle seat.
- Operyl 7y agoIn a way they already are "charging less" for the middle seat, in the form of paying money to select a seat. I think in the past 15 times I've flown I've always gotten the middle seat unless I pay to select a seat.
- jacknews 7y agoHaha yes, where that's an option, of course you can pay more not to be in the middle. What was I thinking suggesting they charge less for the middle, lol
- Operyl 7y agoAnd they do, it's just pretty transparent I guess :).
- skohan 7y agoNot booking the seat is a bit of a crap-shoot. I've also had cases on budget airlines where leaving it up to chance got me in the front of the plane, or in an emergency exit row. I guess no one wanted to pay a premium for those seats, so they were the ones left for random assignment.
- giarc 7y agoThere are designs to help this problem. I've seen a few takes on the idea of making it two levels like this one [1] 1. https://www.cnn.com/2014/05/02/tech/social-media/apparently-this-matters-airplane-paperclip-armrest/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2014/05/02/tech/social-media/apparently-...
- jasonkester 7y agoThis looks like the thing you do to park benches to stop homeless people from sleeping on them. I fly with two little kids (and a tiny wife), any of which can lay across a row of three seats like a bed. If you can find a non-full international flight, that can make all the difference. Unless of course you have hobo spikes on the plane. Pass.
- twic 7y agoNow this is a smart move: travel with little kids and a tiny wife, and leave the full-size ones at home!
- TheBeardKing 7y agoI fly in plenty of middle seats being a government employee. Nearly all of the window and aisle seats are booked by the time we schedule the trip, and we can't pay extra for premium economy. I'm an average size guy, 5'10, 170 lbs, and never have an issue sitting middle next to average weight people. On Southwest, I actually go for them first to get within the first couple rows and get off the plane quicker. I've never had someone fall asleep and rest their head on my shoulder as I've seen on TV. But I do have a small bout of anxiety as I'm walking down the aisle for the chance I have to sit next to an overweight person. You can't help but be touching hips the entire trip, and arm nudges quite often. This solution poses a whole new set of issues already mentioned, but the real solution in my opinion is to relegate a few rows with only 2 seats for overweight people, priced accordingly. Public perception wouldn't allow requiring overweight people to book those seats, but I think a lot of overweight people would out of courtesy and their own comfort. They would be available to anyone who wanted the extra width as well, but you'd be less motivated to pay extra for it if you didn't need it.
- Loughla 7y ago>This solution poses a whole new set of issues already mentioned, but the real solution in my opinion is to relegate a few rows with only 2 seats for overweight people, priced accordingly. That would be a barrier to access based on disability, and would open up an entire host of legal liabilities for the airlines. I have to assume that's why they haven't done it yet.
- TheBeardKing 7y agoThat's why I said not required; it'd be an optional upgrade. And another comment mentioned it's already implemented on Spirit.
- Bluecobra 7y agoThey already have something like this on Spirit called "the big seat". It's basically a domestic/no-frills first class seat in the front of the plane but you still need to pay your peanuts. I think it's a great idea and it makes flying Spirit more bearable.
- addicted 7y agoI’m worried the window seat would trigger claustrophobia in me. I’d feel trapped in based on the arrangement shown in the images there.
- technofiend 7y agoThe exit row window seat on my flight yesterday was pretty tight left to right. At some point airlines shrank the buffer space between the window and window seat to zero, so there's no longer space for your arm on the window side. Squeezed between a full-sized adult on my right and the wall to my left was no way to spend four hours. tl;dr: Airlines need to stop shrinking the distance between seats on the same row.
- magduf 7y agoThey probably shrank the buffer space because everyone was complaining about the seats being too narrow. Do you want buffer space, or a wider seat?
- technofiend 7y ago>Do you want buffer space, or a wider seat? Both. I want to go back to reasonable seat sizes even if costs go up because as it stands I'm choosing to fly less and less with the current seat pitch. In fact I did pay $100 out of pocket to upgrade my seat to economy plus and was lucky to snag a business row seat, or so I thought. It was in fact a miserably crowded experience.
- magduf 7y agoThe ticket prices back in the days of "reasonable seat sizes" were much more than your economy plus ticket cost. One of the big reasons flying is so affordable now is precisely because they can cram so many people in.
- technofiend 7y ago
- harel 7y agoI read it as "Airlines are finally fixing the middle EAST", and thought wow, that's an unexpected twist to a complicated problem.
- bluedino 7y agoMeanwhile, companies like Frontier are installing the thinnest plastic 'bowls' they can legally still cause a seat and stripping inches of legroom.
- Yizahi 7y agoIt looks like window and isle passengers will push their elbows right in the torso of middle passenger. But it is hard to judge without actually sitting in such seat.
- goatherders 7y agoAirlines will never adopt these seats en masse until people show a willingness to pay more for them. That isnt how airlines work - they are cargo companies, not customer service companies, and adding millions of dollars in expense so the cheapest customers feel better doesnt fit the model. People in the middle seat fly less often, are more price conscious, and generally dont matter to airlines because there is no loyalty by those customers. (250k flying miles a year here)
- mikro2nd 7y agoGenuine question here: Do you, or would you, buy CO2 offsets to do something about the horrendous carbon footprint of your 250k miles/year?
- goatherders 7y agoNot sure why you got down-voted, it's a fair question. My answer is that it's not something I've considered. I do a number of things that are "good" for the environment (recycling, composting, don't own a car, etc.) but I haven't ever even explored CO2 offsets. Just never occurred to me.
- mikro2nd 7y agoIn fairness I think it's a fairly new thing for individuals (as opposed to large companies) to even be able to buy offsets, but I'm betting it will become a much larger trend quite quickly, perhaps even required in some jurisdictions. It's not a 'perfect' solution, but at least a step toward doing /something/ rather than shrugging off CO2 emissions as a merely inevitable consequence of air-travel.
- jobigoud 7y agoCan individuals actually buy CO2 offsets?
- mikro2nd 7y agoYep. It's a thing, now. https://www.endscarbonoffsets.com/directory/ https://www.endscarbonoffsets.com/directory/ for a starting point.
- dbg31415 7y agoStaggered seats feels gimmicky. I'm 6'1" and all I want is like 2 more inches of knee room, like planes used to have, so that when the person in front of me drops their seat back it doesn't go right onto my knees. I have nowhere to go other than widening my stance and encroaching on the people on either side. The new ultra thin / no pading seats some airlines use really hurt when they land on your knees. https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2017/06/27/house-panel-asks-faa-set-minimum-legroom-airlines/429358001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/... "[Average length has decreased from] 35 inches before airline deregulation in the 1970s to about 31 inches today. During the same period, the average width of seats declined from 18 to 16.5 inches..."
- choward 7y agoThis is the second article I've seen about this and neither has a picture of people actually sitting in the seats. All I want is before and after pictures with people in the seats.
- kjeetgill 7y agoMy non-cynical guess is that with people in them, you can't visually see much of a difference. The same way way I can't really eyeball the difference an extra inch or two of legroom will make for me.
- rajacombinator 7y agoOnly chance this gets adopted in America (assuming it works as promised) is if airlines can upsell them as premium++ middle seats while cramming the premium+, premium, and sardine classes even further.
- yellowapple 7y agoThe slightly wider width is a game changer; if this catches on, I'd happily spring for middle seats for that alone.
- jmpman 7y agoFor those of us with broad shoulders, being set back a few inches is going to turn me into a pretzel. Yes, I understand that with a “normal” seat, my shoulders violate my seat mates space. The only option I’ve found is to claim a window seat where my shoulder is aligned to the window cutout. As there’s no way to determine this arrangement with online booking tools, I prefer Southwest where my status allows me to always get that shoulder/window seat. And my company also doesn’t pay for seat upgrades, so I’m stuck gaming the reservation system to land a southwest flight.
- magduf 7y agoYou should try to get flights on Airbus planes instead, as they usually have wider seats. Southwest only flies 737s, which have terrible seat space because it's an ancient narrowbody design.
- t0mas88 7y agoThe solution I like most is flying on Embraer 170/190 aircraft for short (within Europe) trips, because they seat 2-2 instead of 3-3 like a 737. Also solves a big part of the carry-on luggage issues and boarding goes much faster. Longer trips Air France has 1-2-1 seating on the 777 in business class, really like that for long flights alone for work. Enough to accept a 1 hour layover in Paris for it, because it means you can sleep all night on your way to Asia or on the way back from the US.