14 ms·

Tell HN: Pluralsight and the dark-pattern of auto-renewals

172 points by aosaigh 7y ago

For anyone considering subscribing to Pluralsight, be aware that they will not inform you of their auto-renewal policy, and will charge you once your subscription is up for annual renewal without warning. In my case, this auto-renewal has cost me $300. This is a serious dark-pattern and I'm surprised companies still employ it. It's so short-sighted. I emailed their support and they offer a "promotional" $50 refund as a token. Are there any other companies that do this? In contrast, Egghead.io (which in a similar space) sends an email in advance warning you of the renewal as well as how to cancel it.

bargl 7y ago
I use Pluralsight and I love their videos. I had a subscription I'd paid for and then I changed companies. My new Company provided a subscription. So I called up and they refunded me the prorated subscription. I see you emailed customer support, but I'd instead call them. You'll probably have better luck with a human listening. Maybe not but it's worth a try for $300. An Email should have done it. It's crazy if you do call them and it works, but sometimes that does the trick.
dangrossman 7y ago
Did you come through a shady landing page somewhere? From what I see, you cannot sign up without being informed of their auto renewal policy, and they do not charge you without warning, which were your two complaints. Every signup button I could find on their public website says "10-day free trial then $X/month, billed monthly/annually" immediately beside or below the button. Clicking any of these buttons brings you to a payment page that asks your credit card info. That page says you'll receive an email reminder the day before your card is charged.
- aosaigh 7y ago
  Sorry, didn't explain properly. I had subscribed already for the first year ($300). My renewal date for this next year came without warning and I was charged again, without recourse. I updated the text to clarify.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    What do you mean it came without warning? It’s a subscription plan that you pay for yearly.
- petercooper 7y ago
  "That page says you'll receive an email reminder the day before your card is charged." Is that every time they charge you? Or just after the end of the trial? I think it should be a law (or at least an ethical standard) to email all customers in advance of automated billing (or at least have a 24 hour cooling off period after such a charge).
redwards510 7y ago
I can't think of a single subscription service that does not auto-renew. Can you? Companies consider that a "feature" because it provides uninterrupted service. Is your beef with them because they didn't email you to let you know they were going to bill you for renewal? Do what I do. Never trust a company. Whenever you sign up for a recurring service or a free trial, add an event to your personal calendar that reminds you to cancel. Or use a gift card with a limited balance.
- aosaigh 7y ago
  I think I wasn't clear enough that this is an annual subscription of significant cost ($300). With that in mind I would absolutely expect them to email in advance reminding me of the charge (other similar services do). I agree that for something that is monthly, I wouldn't expect an email every month. Adding dates to the calendar and using giftcard/credit card are both good suggestions for the future.
  - anant90 7y ago
    Also, consider using a one-time Credit Card from https://privacy.com/ https://privacy.com/
    - fma 7y ago
      Thanks. I used to use virtual cards from Bank of America and Citibank but looks like it's just an after thought to the big banks now...
    - cpv 7y ago
      Do you know a similar service outside US?
      - andimm 7y ago
        You can get virtual cards and virtual disposable cards with Revolut but it costs a little fee or it‘s free with the premium/metal subscription
lemax 7y ago
Most companies in my experience will refund you fully with an email to support. SaaS companies expect a lot of churn even with auto-renew, and I think the cost of a bad rap outweighs a lenient refund policy.
netbuddha 7y ago
I definitely can sympathize with you on having a $300 deduction without warning but this is how 95% of online business and services bill. You are hard pressed to find a business application that is not subscription with auto renew. At one time I said I would never buy an app that is subscription based. It did not take long for me to realize I would have to get rid of my computer because I have no apps.
tschwimmer 7y ago
I would go so far as to say that every single SaaS company in existence has autorenew. Literally the entire business model is built off of a predictable set of customers converting and renewing (and thus a predictable revenue stream). SaaS companies are also heavily incentivized to make it harder for you to cancel a trial. Yes, if you get down to it this is not in your interest but also it ends up being a relatively positive tradeoff. You can either have free, no commitment trials with autorenew and all the economic activity that they bring (probably hundreds of thousands of jobs, hundreds of great, useful products) or you can have no autoconvert and also basically no tech sector. I suggest you set up a calendar reminder when you sign up for a free trial or use a temporary credit card (many solutions are a quick search away).
- aosaigh 7y ago
  I wonder if my reaction to this is more based on how they implement auto-renew rather than the fact they do it at all, as I agree that companies need to have auto-renew for many reasons. I just find something very unfair about a policy that doesn't warn you about a significant annual renewal coupled with the fact you aren't warned about it nor is it refundable (even if you immediately contact support). It feels like a very deliberate design. As I mentioned, other services have a much more honest and open approach to this, where they email a couple of days in advance warning you about the charge. But maybe I'm just naive in this instance and should assume companies will do it (so plan around it)
- pkd 7y ago
  Not every single one of them, but it's definitely rare to find auto renew turned off.
JackC 7y ago
Slightly different, but Adobe got me with an unintended annual renewal. For their annual plan billed monthly, there's no way to turn off autorenewal until the 12th month without losing access immediately and paying a penalty. They do send you reminder emails, which I missed, but it struck me as pretty abusive to require an opt-out exactly 11-12 months after signup to avoid being locked into a new one-year contract, with no way to opt out early. One of many forum threads about the policy: https://forums.adobe.com/thread/2536257 https://forums.adobe.com/thread/2536257 Ugh, I remember now how gross that felt at the time, to realize I was locked into the contract, couldn't cancel, and that the same thing was likely to happen again next year, because they built it that way on purpose. Blech.
- distantaidenn 7y ago
  You can cancel. It's in their CS rep book to refuse or outright lie about being unable to cancel without a penalty fee, but just ask to speak to a manager. After the reps gets back from their smoke break, rest assured suddenly they are able to proceed with the request.
  - radicalriddler 7y ago
    Damn, I wish I knew this a month ago. Damn me for being so quiet and anti-confrontational. I ended up with the half price monthly.
- bryik 7y ago
  Adobe hit me with an unintended annual renewal out of a trial. I just wanted to try Adobe Premiere Pro on a school project...well, final exams happened and I forgot to cancel the subscription. Then I moved to a different country, started a new job, and continued to forget about Adobe. A month later I see the credit card bills and try to cancel. Somehow I have an annual contract that carries an early termination penalty. Take the money you dogs; it's the last you'll get.
  - bprasanna 7y ago
    Never thought a company like Adobe can do this! Too much of harshness.
motohagiography 7y ago
Try buying ads on linkedin and setting an amount you want to spend. It auto-renewed that amount, every day for weeks, without an email or even linkedin profile notification. It's an extremely shady dark pattern. I lost well over $1000 to them before I discovered it and cancelled. Have fun getting a refund as well. In short, avoid.
- jordanmorgan10 7y ago
  I'm curious if this was obvious during the on boarding of when you bought/created the ads though? The world of spending on ads alludes me, and as I start to venture into it to promote my own stuff - these are the things that have me a bit apprehensive to pull the trigger on any significant ad spend.
  - motohagiography 7y ago
    I'm sure legally there was a reference, however the interface was structured to loot my credit card. I told support as much, and while I'm sure there was some indicator, again, no notification my card was being charged in my linkedin account notifications, and no emails that it was being charged. You need to watch it accumulate practically real time, because it will auto renew. Under what circumstances someone would willingly sign up to have $100 taken from them as an automatic refill is beyond me. Further, when someone is fundamentally dissatisfied with a service, you either refund them or you have profited by misrepresentation. In spite of a messaged commitment from them to refund the money, I have not received any notification that it has been refunded. The good news is that when a company's culture sucks that much, it is ripe for disruption.
- Balgair 7y ago
  To be fair, LI uses dark patterns with the same gusto that a wolf has for a lamb ranch. I thought they were widely known for their scummy tactics. https://medium.com/@danrschlosser/linkedin-dark-patterns-3ae726fe1462 https://medium.com/@danrschlosser/linkedin-dark-patterns-3ae...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Scooty 7y ago
The other day I was stopped on the sidewalk by someone who told me they worked for a large environmental non profit that helps save endangered species. He asked if I would subscribe to help. I offered to make a donation and was told they I can't do a one time donation and they "really need subscribers". He even told me I could just cancel after the first payment. Taking advantage of someone being forgetful is sleazy.
- buckminster 7y ago
  In the UK a typical suggested donation might be £10 per month and the first three payments will go to the sales person's employer - which is typically a third party, not the charity. If you cancel after the first month they get paid but the charity gets nothing. It's sleazier than you think!
  - raverbashing 7y ago
    For most of those charity orgs, you're being more generous to the middle men than to those in need
    - mikorym 7y ago
      I like the charity-starts-at-home approach. I don't know how people do this in first world countries, but in developing countries is relatively easy to find a cause.
  - bencollier49 7y ago
    I'm a member of a club in the UK which raises money for charity - we've stopped giving money to corporate charities because their overheads are such a high percentage of their takings - at this point they're largely just self-perpetuating bureaucracy machines. We give cash to small volunteer-run charities where we know that 100% of the money raised goes to the cause in question.
    - reallydontask 7y ago
time0ut 7y ago
I'd call my credit card company and see what recourse they offer.
tvanantwerp 7y ago
Recently had a legacy Bluehost site I inherited get auto-renewed to the tune of over $400. This was one small step up from a static site, for an organization that doesn't exist anymore--the site remained only as proof that they once did. There was nothing in the emails they sent saying that auto-renew was set up. The way I read the expiration warnings was that it would, in fact, expire, which I was fine with. Thankfully support was very helpful in refunding the charge and canceling the account.
DrOctagon 7y ago
Pluralsight stung me after the free first 10 days too. I was wary, and even after carefully reading the conditions I didn't think the first payment was automatic.
a13n 7y ago
If they won't refund you then they're being dicks. Chargeback your credit card if you're in the US. You'll almost certainly win and there's likely no penalty if you don't. Chargebacks also cost providers money on top of the refund, which disincentives their shitty refund policy. I run a SaaS company (with a great refund policy) and am part of many SaaS startup groups and it's standard practice to basically refund anyone who asks. The refund costs way less than the damage to your brand / negative reviews.
- technics256 7y ago
  What are the startup groups you are a part of, if you don't mind sharing? I also run a small SaaS.
  - a13n 7y ago
    Facebook group: SaaS growth hacks There are a few others if you search SaaS on Facebook, but that's the best/biggest one.
- abraae 7y ago
  Spent several hours chasing up 5 chargebacks for our service today. The accountant did not recognize our charges so simply claimed they were fraudulent. What a pain in the ass for us.
s09dfhks 7y ago
Would privacy.com or a similar service be helpful in situations like this
scarface74 7y ago
All subscription plans auto renew. That’s basically what a subscription is.
- aosaigh 7y ago
  Please see some of my other comments. The issue isn't with the fact that there is a renewal (despite my poor explanation that might have made it seem that way) but with how they go about it.
GiorgioG 7y ago
I had the same thing happen to me late last year. I cancelled my Pluralsight account the moment I got the payment notification. I will never do business with them again.
simonebrunozzi 7y ago
Added to my list of bad companies: https://gitlab.com/simonebrunozzi/dark-companies/blob/master/README.md https://gitlab.com/simonebrunozzi/dark-companies/blob/master...
mhxion 7y ago
I believe what your point is since the subscription costs 23 times more of what Netflix HD costs, there should've been a warning since Netflix and many other companies do even for their low prices. From my experience this is nothing new, but there should've been a fair refund system. Many of devs might already know Visual Studio offers free 1-month (it was 3-months before) of Pluralsight, I'm not sure if you need to sign up with your CC now, but it's a nice deal. https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/dev-essentials/ https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/dev-essentials/
jordanmorgan10 7y ago
Disclaimer: I've done about 4 videos for Pluralsight. I have to agree - if you make it hard to cancel your service I think you're losing money. We're kinda seeing this a lot on iOS, where subscriptions and the process of carrying those over after a limited free trial are very, very shady. It's a shame, because you want those dollars earned - and if I decide your product isn't right for me and you make it hard to leave, then by proxy you've made it almost impossible for me to come back.
- jbarberu 7y ago
  You've also transformed me to a walking & talking warning sign telling others to stay away :)
egypturnash 7y ago
stamps.com does this, I got distracted and forgot to cancel my account for a year and a half and ugh. People do this because it works, they pack their T&C full of arbitration terms and other bullshit like that.
jonmc12 7y ago
Another company: Godaddy. They send an email reminder for auto-renew with a button, "Manage your renewals". Click on that button, but you can't toggle off auto-renew on that page. There are some big toggles to toggle the privacy feature (an upsell of a paid feature). If you want to toggle off auto-renew for that domain, you have to navigate to a different Godaddy page using 2-3 clicks without instruction.
- fouc 7y ago
  Depends on the TLD? For example, .app domains are always auto-renew I think
  - CydeWeys 7y ago
    Registrars will generally auto-renew domains for their registrants regardless of any TLD-specific policies. And that makes sense; letting a domain name lapse absent explicit instruction is generally the wrong thing to do.
    - PetahNZ 7y ago
      Well depending on the tld, there are grace periods after it lapses
      - CydeWeys 7y ago
        And depending on TLD, it can be quite expensive to restore a domain during the redemption grace period. Much better to not let it get into that situation in the first place. Plus there are autorenew grace periods, so the saner thing is to keep the domain around and then delete it if the registrant objects (and then they get their money back).
TrainedMonkey 7y ago
If you use paypal, scrub pre-approved payments page: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_manage-paylist https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_manage-paylist I've caught two unintended renewals and cancelled a lot of pre-approved payment authorizations. Out of 20 authorizations, only Google and Valve were legit recurring payments, all other just set it up after a one-time purchase.
Temasik 7y ago
Pluralsight < udemy Nobody help you on pluralsight if youre stuck
- ameyv 7y ago
  Not true. I did received refund for my account when codeschool got acquired by them. They auto renewed but i compliant on first day, so support team did made refund.
Insanity 7y ago
PSN (to play online on the PS4) does auto-renewal. Can't remember if that is an option though. Not as expensive though, about 60USD/year.
ishanjain28 7y ago
I use the subscriptions app on Playstore to keep track of all my subscriptions. Pretty happy with it so far.
harry8 7y ago
domain sellers will often happily charge you a subscription to their services when you've moved your domain(s) somewhere else and there is literally no service they can provide to you.
mrccc 7y ago
In Europe, this might be illegal: > Merchants operating in the European Union must give customers 7 business days’ notice before changing the price of their recurring billing plan; 7 business days’ notice is also required before billing customers if it has been 6+ months since their last payment. If you don’t operate in the EU, these notices aren't required (but they're still good practice). From: https://articles.braintreepayments.com/guides/recurring-billing/subscriptions https://articles.braintreepayments.com/guides/recurring-bill...
- aosaigh 7y ago
  This is very interesting. I'm in Europe so I'm going to investigate this further. Thanks
- aosaigh 7y ago
  Thank you for this tip (it worked). It looks like this is actually a Visa policy. From their terms: "For a recurring transaction, both: … - Provide notification to the card holder at least 7 working day before a recurring transaction if any of the following is true: … - More than 6 months have elapsed since the previous Recurring activity"
Flow 7y ago
FYI: I live in the EU and work for a large corporation. I have a Pluralsight subscription via Visual Studio+MSDN and when the period is near the end Pluralsight sends several emails informing me that the subscription soon will end and that I should renew.
pi-victor 7y ago
i'd say the same about lingoda.com, although not extremely known, they offer language courses. their auto-renewal policy is abysmal, basically the only way to stop auto-renewal is to delete your account entirely.
buro9 7y ago
When you take out any subscription, you should always create an event in your calendar that is the last date that you can cancel before renewal. Takes seconds to do and saves a lot of money down the line.
dawidsawczuk 7y ago
What I usually do is I use a virtual Revolut card that I keep frozen when I'm not making payments. Unfortunately some companies don't accept prepaid card as payment, but in those cases I simply don't give them my money.
- RustyBucket 7y ago
  Revolut actually has "disposable virtual card" - details are regenerated after the first purchase. It's even more convenient.
rygxqpbsngav 7y ago
Had similar experience with Adobe. I got discounted monthly price on their photography plan for a year. However, they didn't send me the new price before end of the period. So, it went on for few more months, when I realized this. Contacted them, and after few chats, managed to get refunded the whole amount for the months renewed in full as their terms say they must send a renewal email/notice and they failed. I pushed that point heavy and managed to get full refund.
projectileboy 7y ago
Same for LogMeIn. And Washington Post. And so many others. It makes me sad that what should be legitimate businesses now seem to feel it’s acceptable to trick people into giving them money.
msh 7y ago
Todoist uses the same dark pattern
gridlockd 7y ago
> This is a serious dark-pattern and I'm surprised companies still employ it. It's so short-sighted. It's not short-sighted at all. Literally every adult should be aware that subscriptions generally auto-renew, unless advertised otherwise. It's been like that since the dawn of time. From a business perspective, it makes little sense not to do auto-renewals. Of all the subscriptions that I've ever had, those that didn't auto-renew, I let lapse, often permanently. I didn't think to myself "I should reward this company for not doing auto-renewals!", I thought "I'll get to it later". Those that did auto-renew but that I didn't need, I didn't cancel for a long time. Of course I'm annoyed at the auto-renewals wasting my money, but not to the point where I wouldn't use the service again out of spite. If I need it, I need it.
- aosaigh 7y ago
  I've mentioned this a few times, but the issue isn't with auto-renewals existing, it's with how these auto-renewals are applied and the policy around them.
alexghr 7y ago
LinkedIn is the worst. Starting a trial through the mobile app requires only a couple of clicks. Trying to cancel that trial? Haha! Good luck! There's no way to do it through the mobile app. I had to open the website, login there as well, go to the help section, search for "cancel" and click on the help article. At this point I was greeted by "this feature is not supported on mobile devices" so I had Firefox request the desktop version in order to view the page.
mosselman 7y ago
I had a run in with BitDefender the other day. They charged me 120 euros for something that costs 37 euros on their website claiming auto-renewal was part of my original order 2 years ago! The first counter offer I got, when requesting a full refund was adding 1 year or paying 37 for 1 year. Reminding then that in the EU you have a 14 day return period for online purchases made them refund the complete order. What is especially ironic about this is that they supposedly want to protect me against online scammers, etc. In my book auto-renewals like this are scams.
mola 7y ago
I think we should stop calling these things "dark patterns" This is just plain old deception and scamming.
- chrshawkes 7y ago
  They have to justify that bloated stock price. YouTube is a huge competitor and FREE.
LawnDart1 7y ago
Also somewhat "dark" when they email you on the day of renewal, so that you have no chance to consider other options.
hjk05 7y ago
If you buy a subscription you have that subscription until you cancel it. It wasn’t “renewed”, they just charged you the yearly cost. Imagine if your gym membership was forced to ask you every month if you still want the subscription and would have to cancel it if you didn’t respond. That said, if you want to now cancel it get in touch with their costumer service they’ll likely help you.
thiagora 7y ago
We're working on a search engine for online courses (classpert) and the subscription model was always a big question mark for us. We try our best to show advantages of the subscription but for the end user, we're not so sure it's the best model (and we doubt providers really believe that either). Personally, Udemy model (pay per course) works better for the general case, and I would only subscribe to specific content made by specific, top-notch people.
tamiral 7y ago
thank god my corp pays for pluralsight... i hope you get your money back, i do love the website but if you dont need it they should refund you.
novaleaf 7y ago
Isn't this the whole point of yearly subscriptions? Seems like you should be shaking your fist at the sky instead of at Pluralsight. 1) capture additional revenue from those canceling (even better: not using) prior to 1 year 2) capture additional revenue from those forgetting to cancel Distant 3) getting the cash up front. If your business really needs working capital that bad, I don't think you'll be in business very long.
- aosaigh 7y ago
  > 2) capture additional revenue from those forgetting to cancel This is the dark pattern exactly and nothing to do with annual subscriptions as a business process. I'm not sure why people are willing to put up with it. If I have an annual renewal, I should be reminded. Actively encouraging and/or relying on your users to forget the renewal date is scummy, simple-as. As another poster mentioned, this is such a problem that Visa have encoded this in the user terms. In the EU, you have to remind your users 7 days in advance of the renewal date if the subscription has been greater than 6 months. Saying that this is "just the way it is" completely ignores the actual issue.
  - novaleaf 7y ago
    I don't mean it in a "just the way it is" sense. but rather that there are a TON of companies that do this. get mad at all of them. as for the OP, hope he used a credit card (not debit) and if so, dispute the charge.
foobar123321 7y ago
> For anyone considering subscribing to Pluralsight, be aware that they will not inform you of their auto-renewal policy, and will charge you once your subscription is up for annual renewal without warning. In my case, this auto-renewal has cost me $300. I'm glad you mention this. The same thing happened to me and is one of the big reasons I cancelled and won't be using them ever again. I can't remember the details but it seemed sketchy at the time, I signed up for a free trial and they ended up just sending me a bill for $300 after the 7 days expired, without any text or warnings that this would happen before hand (not during the free trial sign up either). Yes, a very dark-pattern indeed.
amerkhalid 7y ago
There are so many such services that make it look like that there is no auto-renewal but when you check help docs, they have instructions to contact customer service to disable auto-renewal. Having bitten by this a few times in past, now whenever I sign up for any subscription service, I add a calendar entry to cancel service 1 month before it supposed to expire. If I like the service, then I just update reminder to cancel it before next renewal period.

172 points by aosaigh 7y ago

bargl 7y ago

I use Pluralsight and I love their videos. I had a subscription I'd paid for and then I changed companies. My new Company provided a subscription. So I called up and they refunded me the prorated subscription. I see you emailed customer support, but I'd instead call them. You'll probably have better luck with a human listening. Maybe not but it's worth a try for $300. An Email should have done it. It's crazy if you do call them and it works, but sometimes that does the trick.

dangrossman 7y ago

Did you come through a shady landing page somewhere? From what I see, you cannot sign up without being informed of their auto renewal policy, and they do not charge you without warning, which were your two complaints. Every signup button I could find on their public website says "10-day free trial then $X/month, billed monthly/annually" immediately beside or below the button. Clicking any of these buttons brings you to a payment page that asks your credit card info. That page says you'll receive an email reminder the day before your card is charged.

aosaigh 7y ago
Sorry, didn't explain properly. I had subscribed already for the first year ($300). My renewal date for this next year came without warning and I was charged again, without recourse. I updated the text to clarify.
- scarface74 7y ago
  What do you mean it came without warning? It’s a subscription plan that you pay for yearly.
petercooper 7y ago
"That page says you'll receive an email reminder the day before your card is charged." Is that every time they charge you? Or just after the end of the trial? I think it should be a law (or at least an ethical standard) to email all customers in advance of automated billing (or at least have a 24 hour cooling off period after such a charge).

redwards510 7y ago

I can't think of a single subscription service that does not auto-renew. Can you? Companies consider that a "feature" because it provides uninterrupted service. Is your beef with them because they didn't email you to let you know they were going to bill you for renewal? Do what I do. Never trust a company. Whenever you sign up for a recurring service or a free trial, add an event to your personal calendar that reminds you to cancel. Or use a gift card with a limited balance.

aosaigh 7y ago
I think I wasn't clear enough that this is an annual subscription of significant cost ($300). With that in mind I would absolutely expect them to email in advance reminding me of the charge (other similar services do). I agree that for something that is monthly, I wouldn't expect an email every month. Adding dates to the calendar and using giftcard/credit card are both good suggestions for the future.
- anant90 7y ago
  Also, consider using a one-time Credit Card from https://privacy.com/ https://privacy.com/
  - fma 7y ago
    Thanks. I used to use virtual cards from Bank of America and Citibank but looks like it's just an after thought to the big banks now...
  - cpv 7y ago
    Do you know a similar service outside US?
    - andimm 7y ago
      You can get virtual cards and virtual disposable cards with Revolut but it costs a little fee or it‘s free with the premium/metal subscription

lemax 7y ago

Most companies in my experience will refund you fully with an email to support. SaaS companies expect a lot of churn even with auto-renew, and I think the cost of a bad rap outweighs a lenient refund policy.

netbuddha 7y ago

I definitely can sympathize with you on having a $300 deduction without warning but this is how 95% of online business and services bill. You are hard pressed to find a business application that is not subscription with auto renew. At one time I said I would never buy an app that is subscription based. It did not take long for me to realize I would have to get rid of my computer because I have no apps.

tschwimmer 7y ago

I would go so far as to say that every single SaaS company in existence has autorenew. Literally the entire business model is built off of a predictable set of customers converting and renewing (and thus a predictable revenue stream). SaaS companies are also heavily incentivized to make it harder for you to cancel a trial. Yes, if you get down to it this is not in your interest but also it ends up being a relatively positive tradeoff. You can either have free, no commitment trials with autorenew and all the economic activity that they bring (probably hundreds of thousands of jobs, hundreds of great, useful products) or you can have no autoconvert and also basically no tech sector. I suggest you set up a calendar reminder when you sign up for a free trial or use a temporary credit card (many solutions are a quick search away).

aosaigh 7y ago
I wonder if my reaction to this is more based on how they implement auto-renew rather than the fact they do it at all, as I agree that companies need to have auto-renew for many reasons. I just find something very unfair about a policy that doesn't warn you about a significant annual renewal coupled with the fact you aren't warned about it nor is it refundable (even if you immediately contact support). It feels like a very deliberate design. As I mentioned, other services have a much more honest and open approach to this, where they email a couple of days in advance warning you about the charge. But maybe I'm just naive in this instance and should assume companies will do it (so plan around it)
pkd 7y ago
Not every single one of them, but it's definitely rare to find auto renew turned off.

JackC 7y ago

Slightly different, but Adobe got me with an unintended annual renewal. For their annual plan billed monthly, there's no way to turn off autorenewal until the 12th month without losing access immediately and paying a penalty. They do send you reminder emails, which I missed, but it struck me as pretty abusive to require an opt-out exactly 11-12 months after signup to avoid being locked into a new one-year contract, with no way to opt out early. One of many forum threads about the policy: https://forums.adobe.com/thread/2536257 https://forums.adobe.com/thread/2536257 Ugh, I remember now how gross that felt at the time, to realize I was locked into the contract, couldn't cancel, and that the same thing was likely to happen again next year, because they built it that way on purpose. Blech.

distantaidenn 7y ago
You can cancel. It's in their CS rep book to refuse or outright lie about being unable to cancel without a penalty fee, but just ask to speak to a manager. After the reps gets back from their smoke break, rest assured suddenly they are able to proceed with the request.
- radicalriddler 7y ago
  Damn, I wish I knew this a month ago. Damn me for being so quiet and anti-confrontational. I ended up with the half price monthly.
bryik 7y ago
Adobe hit me with an unintended annual renewal out of a trial. I just wanted to try Adobe Premiere Pro on a school project...well, final exams happened and I forgot to cancel the subscription. Then I moved to a different country, started a new job, and continued to forget about Adobe. A month later I see the credit card bills and try to cancel. Somehow I have an annual contract that carries an early termination penalty. Take the money you dogs; it's the last you'll get.
- bprasanna 7y ago
  Never thought a company like Adobe can do this! Too much of harshness.

motohagiography 7y ago

Try buying ads on linkedin and setting an amount you want to spend. It auto-renewed that amount, every day for weeks, without an email or even linkedin profile notification. It's an extremely shady dark pattern. I lost well over $1000 to them before I discovered it and cancelled. Have fun getting a refund as well. In short, avoid.

jordanmorgan10 7y ago
I'm curious if this was obvious during the on boarding of when you bought/created the ads though? The world of spending on ads alludes me, and as I start to venture into it to promote my own stuff - these are the things that have me a bit apprehensive to pull the trigger on any significant ad spend.
- motohagiography 7y ago
  I'm sure legally there was a reference, however the interface was structured to loot my credit card. I told support as much, and while I'm sure there was some indicator, again, no notification my card was being charged in my linkedin account notifications, and no emails that it was being charged. You need to watch it accumulate practically real time, because it will auto renew. Under what circumstances someone would willingly sign up to have $100 taken from them as an automatic refill is beyond me. Further, when someone is fundamentally dissatisfied with a service, you either refund them or you have profited by misrepresentation. In spite of a messaged commitment from them to refund the money, I have not received any notification that it has been refunded. The good news is that when a company's culture sucks that much, it is ripe for disruption.
Balgair 7y ago
To be fair, LI uses dark patterns with the same gusto that a wolf has for a lamb ranch. I thought they were widely known for their scummy tactics. https://medium.com/@danrschlosser/linkedin-dark-patterns-3ae726fe1462 https://medium.com/@danrschlosser/linkedin-dark-patterns-3ae...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Scooty 7y ago

The other day I was stopped on the sidewalk by someone who told me they worked for a large environmental non profit that helps save endangered species. He asked if I would subscribe to help. I offered to make a donation and was told they I can't do a one time donation and they "really need subscribers". He even told me I could just cancel after the first payment. Taking advantage of someone being forgetful is sleazy.

buckminster 7y ago
In the UK a typical suggested donation might be £10 per month and the first three payments will go to the sales person's employer - which is typically a third party, not the charity. If you cancel after the first month they get paid but the charity gets nothing. It's sleazier than you think!
- raverbashing 7y ago
  For most of those charity orgs, you're being more generous to the middle men than to those in need
  - mikorym 7y ago
    I like the charity-starts-at-home approach. I don't know how people do this in first world countries, but in developing countries is relatively easy to find a cause.
- bencollier49 7y ago
  I'm a member of a club in the UK which raises money for charity - we've stopped giving money to corporate charities because their overheads are such a high percentage of their takings - at this point they're largely just self-perpetuating bureaucracy machines. We give cash to small volunteer-run charities where we know that 100% of the money raised goes to the cause in question.
  - reallydontask 7y ago

time0ut 7y ago

I'd call my credit card company and see what recourse they offer.

tvanantwerp 7y ago

Recently had a legacy Bluehost site I inherited get auto-renewed to the tune of over $400. This was one small step up from a static site, for an organization that doesn't exist anymore--the site remained only as proof that they once did. There was nothing in the emails they sent saying that auto-renew was set up. The way I read the expiration warnings was that it would, in fact, expire, which I was fine with. Thankfully support was very helpful in refunding the charge and canceling the account.

DrOctagon 7y ago

Pluralsight stung me after the free first 10 days too. I was wary, and even after carefully reading the conditions I didn't think the first payment was automatic.

a13n 7y ago

If they won't refund you then they're being dicks. Chargeback your credit card if you're in the US. You'll almost certainly win and there's likely no penalty if you don't. Chargebacks also cost providers money on top of the refund, which disincentives their shitty refund policy. I run a SaaS company (with a great refund policy) and am part of many SaaS startup groups and it's standard practice to basically refund anyone who asks. The refund costs way less than the damage to your brand / negative reviews.

technics256 7y ago
What are the startup groups you are a part of, if you don't mind sharing? I also run a small SaaS.
- a13n 7y ago
  Facebook group: SaaS growth hacks There are a few others if you search SaaS on Facebook, but that's the best/biggest one.
abraae 7y ago
Spent several hours chasing up 5 chargebacks for our service today. The accountant did not recognize our charges so simply claimed they were fraudulent. What a pain in the ass for us.

s09dfhks 7y ago

Would privacy.com or a similar service be helpful in situations like this

scarface74 7y ago

All subscription plans auto renew. That’s basically what a subscription is.

aosaigh 7y ago
Please see some of my other comments. The issue isn't with the fact that there is a renewal (despite my poor explanation that might have made it seem that way) but with how they go about it.

GiorgioG 7y ago

I had the same thing happen to me late last year. I cancelled my Pluralsight account the moment I got the payment notification. I will never do business with them again.

simonebrunozzi 7y ago

Added to my list of bad companies: https://gitlab.com/simonebrunozzi/dark-companies/blob/master/README.md https://gitlab.com/simonebrunozzi/dark-companies/blob/master...

mhxion 7y ago

I believe what your point is since the subscription costs 23 times more of what Netflix HD costs, there should've been a warning since Netflix and many other companies do even for their low prices. From my experience this is nothing new, but there should've been a fair refund system. Many of devs might already know Visual Studio offers free 1-month (it was 3-months before) of Pluralsight, I'm not sure if you need to sign up with your CC now, but it's a nice deal. https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/dev-essentials/ https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/dev-essentials/

jordanmorgan10 7y ago

Disclaimer: I've done about 4 videos for Pluralsight. I have to agree - if you make it hard to cancel your service I think you're losing money. We're kinda seeing this a lot on iOS, where subscriptions and the process of carrying those over after a limited free trial are very, very shady. It's a shame, because you want those dollars earned - and if I decide your product isn't right for me and you make it hard to leave, then by proxy you've made it almost impossible for me to come back.

jbarberu 7y ago
You've also transformed me to a walking & talking warning sign telling others to stay away :)

egypturnash 7y ago

stamps.com does this, I got distracted and forgot to cancel my account for a year and a half and ugh. People do this because it works, they pack their T&C full of arbitration terms and other bullshit like that.

jonmc12 7y ago

Another company: Godaddy. They send an email reminder for auto-renew with a button, "Manage your renewals". Click on that button, but you can't toggle off auto-renew on that page. There are some big toggles to toggle the privacy feature (an upsell of a paid feature). If you want to toggle off auto-renew for that domain, you have to navigate to a different Godaddy page using 2-3 clicks without instruction.

fouc 7y ago
Depends on the TLD? For example, .app domains are always auto-renew I think
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  Registrars will generally auto-renew domains for their registrants regardless of any TLD-specific policies. And that makes sense; letting a domain name lapse absent explicit instruction is generally the wrong thing to do.
  - PetahNZ 7y ago
    Well depending on the tld, there are grace periods after it lapses
    - CydeWeys 7y ago
      And depending on TLD, it can be quite expensive to restore a domain during the redemption grace period. Much better to not let it get into that situation in the first place. Plus there are autorenew grace periods, so the saner thing is to keep the domain around and then delete it if the registrant objects (and then they get their money back).

TrainedMonkey 7y ago

If you use paypal, scrub pre-approved payments page: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_manage-paylist https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_manage-paylist I've caught two unintended renewals and cancelled a lot of pre-approved payment authorizations. Out of 20 authorizations, only Google and Valve were legit recurring payments, all other just set it up after a one-time purchase.

Temasik 7y ago

Pluralsight < udemy Nobody help you on pluralsight if youre stuck

ameyv 7y ago
Not true. I did received refund for my account when codeschool got acquired by them. They auto renewed but i compliant on first day, so support team did made refund.

Insanity 7y ago

PSN (to play online on the PS4) does auto-renewal. Can't remember if that is an option though. Not as expensive though, about 60USD/year.

ishanjain28 7y ago

I use the subscriptions app on Playstore to keep track of all my subscriptions. Pretty happy with it so far.

harry8 7y ago

domain sellers will often happily charge you a subscription to their services when you've moved your domain(s) somewhere else and there is literally no service they can provide to you.

mrccc 7y ago

In Europe, this might be illegal: > Merchants operating in the European Union must give customers 7 business days’ notice before changing the price of their recurring billing plan; 7 business days’ notice is also required before billing customers if it has been 6+ months since their last payment. If you don’t operate in the EU, these notices aren't required (but they're still good practice). From: https://articles.braintreepayments.com/guides/recurring-billing/subscriptions https://articles.braintreepayments.com/guides/recurring-bill...

aosaigh 7y ago
This is very interesting. I'm in Europe so I'm going to investigate this further. Thanks
aosaigh 7y ago
Thank you for this tip (it worked). It looks like this is actually a Visa policy. From their terms: "For a recurring transaction, both: … - Provide notification to the card holder at least 7 working day before a recurring transaction if any of the following is true: … - More than 6 months have elapsed since the previous Recurring activity"

Flow 7y ago

FYI: I live in the EU and work for a large corporation. I have a Pluralsight subscription via Visual Studio+MSDN and when the period is near the end Pluralsight sends several emails informing me that the subscription soon will end and that I should renew.

pi-victor 7y ago

i'd say the same about lingoda.com, although not extremely known, they offer language courses. their auto-renewal policy is abysmal, basically the only way to stop auto-renewal is to delete your account entirely.

buro9 7y ago

When you take out any subscription, you should always create an event in your calendar that is the last date that you can cancel before renewal. Takes seconds to do and saves a lot of money down the line.

dawidsawczuk 7y ago

What I usually do is I use a virtual Revolut card that I keep frozen when I'm not making payments. Unfortunately some companies don't accept prepaid card as payment, but in those cases I simply don't give them my money.

RustyBucket 7y ago
Revolut actually has "disposable virtual card" - details are regenerated after the first purchase. It's even more convenient.

rygxqpbsngav 7y ago

Had similar experience with Adobe. I got discounted monthly price on their photography plan for a year. However, they didn't send me the new price before end of the period. So, it went on for few more months, when I realized this. Contacted them, and after few chats, managed to get refunded the whole amount for the months renewed in full as their terms say they must send a renewal email/notice and they failed. I pushed that point heavy and managed to get full refund.

projectileboy 7y ago

Same for LogMeIn. And Washington Post. And so many others. It makes me sad that what should be legitimate businesses now seem to feel it’s acceptable to trick people into giving them money.

msh 7y ago

Todoist uses the same dark pattern

gridlockd 7y ago

> This is a serious dark-pattern and I'm surprised companies still employ it. It's so short-sighted. It's not short-sighted at all. Literally every adult should be aware that subscriptions generally auto-renew, unless advertised otherwise. It's been like that since the dawn of time. From a business perspective, it makes little sense not to do auto-renewals. Of all the subscriptions that I've ever had, those that didn't auto-renew, I let lapse, often permanently. I didn't think to myself "I should reward this company for not doing auto-renewals!", I thought "I'll get to it later". Those that did auto-renew but that I didn't need, I didn't cancel for a long time. Of course I'm annoyed at the auto-renewals wasting my money, but not to the point where I wouldn't use the service again out of spite. If I need it, I need it.

aosaigh 7y ago
I've mentioned this a few times, but the issue isn't with auto-renewals existing, it's with how these auto-renewals are applied and the policy around them.

alexghr 7y ago

LinkedIn is the worst. Starting a trial through the mobile app requires only a couple of clicks. Trying to cancel that trial? Haha! Good luck! There's no way to do it through the mobile app. I had to open the website, login there as well, go to the help section, search for "cancel" and click on the help article. At this point I was greeted by "this feature is not supported on mobile devices" so I had Firefox request the desktop version in order to view the page.

mosselman 7y ago

I had a run in with BitDefender the other day. They charged me 120 euros for something that costs 37 euros on their website claiming auto-renewal was part of my original order 2 years ago! The first counter offer I got, when requesting a full refund was adding 1 year or paying 37 for 1 year. Reminding then that in the EU you have a 14 day return period for online purchases made them refund the complete order. What is especially ironic about this is that they supposedly want to protect me against online scammers, etc. In my book auto-renewals like this are scams.

mola 7y ago

I think we should stop calling these things "dark patterns" This is just plain old deception and scamming.

chrshawkes 7y ago
They have to justify that bloated stock price. YouTube is a huge competitor and FREE.

LawnDart1 7y ago

Also somewhat "dark" when they email you on the day of renewal, so that you have no chance to consider other options.

hjk05 7y ago

If you buy a subscription you have that subscription until you cancel it. It wasn’t “renewed”, they just charged you the yearly cost. Imagine if your gym membership was forced to ask you every month if you still want the subscription and would have to cancel it if you didn’t respond. That said, if you want to now cancel it get in touch with their costumer service they’ll likely help you.

thiagora 7y ago

We're working on a search engine for online courses (classpert) and the subscription model was always a big question mark for us. We try our best to show advantages of the subscription but for the end user, we're not so sure it's the best model (and we doubt providers really believe that either). Personally, Udemy model (pay per course) works better for the general case, and I would only subscribe to specific content made by specific, top-notch people.

tamiral 7y ago

thank god my corp pays for pluralsight... i hope you get your money back, i do love the website but if you dont need it they should refund you.

novaleaf 7y ago

Isn't this the whole point of yearly subscriptions? Seems like you should be shaking your fist at the sky instead of at Pluralsight. 1) capture additional revenue from those canceling (even better: not using) prior to 1 year 2) capture additional revenue from those forgetting to cancel Distant 3) getting the cash up front. If your business really needs working capital that bad, I don't think you'll be in business very long.

aosaigh 7y ago
> 2) capture additional revenue from those forgetting to cancel This is the dark pattern exactly and nothing to do with annual subscriptions as a business process. I'm not sure why people are willing to put up with it. If I have an annual renewal, I should be reminded. Actively encouraging and/or relying on your users to forget the renewal date is scummy, simple-as. As another poster mentioned, this is such a problem that Visa have encoded this in the user terms. In the EU, you have to remind your users 7 days in advance of the renewal date if the subscription has been greater than 6 months. Saying that this is "just the way it is" completely ignores the actual issue.
- novaleaf 7y ago
  I don't mean it in a "just the way it is" sense. but rather that there are a TON of companies that do this. get mad at all of them. as for the OP, hope he used a credit card (not debit) and if so, dispute the charge.

foobar123321 7y ago

> For anyone considering subscribing to Pluralsight, be aware that they will not inform you of their auto-renewal policy, and will charge you once your subscription is up for annual renewal without warning. In my case, this auto-renewal has cost me $300. I'm glad you mention this. The same thing happened to me and is one of the big reasons I cancelled and won't be using them ever again. I can't remember the details but it seemed sketchy at the time, I signed up for a free trial and they ended up just sending me a bill for $300 after the 7 days expired, without any text or warnings that this would happen before hand (not during the free trial sign up either). Yes, a very dark-pattern indeed.

amerkhalid 7y ago

There are so many such services that make it look like that there is no auto-renewal but when you check help docs, they have instructions to contact customer service to disable auto-renewal. Having bitten by this a few times in past, now whenever I sign up for any subscription service, I add a calendar entry to cancel service 1 month before it supposed to expire. If I like the service, then I just update reminder to cancel it before next renewal period.