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As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped

by khc 7y ago

As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side effect, allow people to access some information that they otherwise wouldn't be able to. And by surfacing better information for queries, it can also help people finding what they want for things that are not censored. I know some people prefer to stick their noses up and hold what they perceive as the moral high ground, but do consider how lives of hundreds of millions of people will be affected by your actions/inactions.

gowld 7y ago
It's not just censorship. It never was. Dragonfly also includes actively assisting the Chinese Communist Party in identifying and persecuting people who look for information about freedom or for information about crimes committed by the Party/government
- jmeng0122 7y ago
  any article or press to support your claims?
  - lern_too_spel 7y ago
    Searches would be linked to identifiable information for logged in users: https://theintercept.com/2018/09/14/google-china-prototype-links-searches-to-phone-numbers/ https://theintercept.com/2018/09/14/google-china-prototype-l... The Chinese government would be able to access that data through Google's joint venture partner in China who actually controls the data.
  - bduerst 7y ago
    The proposal for dragonfly had two conditions set by the Chinese government - the first was to provide censored search results in compliance with the firewall. The second was to link search queries to user phone numbers, which a director tried to hide and many employees revolted against: https://theintercept.com/2018/09/21/google-suppresses-memo-revealing-plans-to-closely-track-search-users-in-china/ https://theintercept.com/2018/09/21/google-suppresses-memo-r...
whatshisface 7y ago
You're assuming that Google would act as a mole, implementing the censorship in bad faith. Why wouldn't they advance the state of the art for censorship, making it even more effective in an attempt to please the Chinese government? In fact, if China is allowing them in, the party must have some reason to believe the second one will come to pass instead of the first.
- sandworm101 7y ago
  Or china quietly takes direct control over the machines biult and run by google. Google then, from the user's perspective, has become that problem governmemt.
- khc 7y ago
  They could. Do you know that's the case? China allows a lot of foreign investments and to think that the only reason is to further their censorship is silly.
  - grimjack00 7y ago
    Of course there are other reasons, such as co-opting foreign technology.
  - inferiorhuman 7y ago
    They could. Do you know that's the case? China allows a lot of foreign investments and to think that the only reason is to further their censorship is silly. And to think that Google would never submit to Chinese censorship in earnest is naive. Yahoo![1], Google, Microsoft, Cisco, AOL, Skype, and Nortel all willingly partook in aiding the censorship apparatus. Yahoo! even went so far as to out journalists and political targets for the Chinese government. Why wouldn't Google do the same? 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Yahoo!#Work_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Yahoo!#Work_in_th...
    - dirtyid 7y ago
      The question is not whether they would do the same - but whether they would the practice to other regions. Did Microsoft, Cisco, AOL, Skype, and Nortel?
TelmoMenezes 7y ago
> Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. So what? That does not make censorship morally acceptable. This would be the same as saying that using slave labor is ok, if you do it in a country that already accepts slavery anyway, and you are treating you slaves better. > And by surfacing better information for queries, it can also help people finding what they want for things that are not censored. Once the state is performing censorship there is no such thing as "better information". If all information is filtered by the government, then all information is suspicious. > but do consider how lives of hundreds of millions of people will be affected by your actions/inactions. I have profound sympathy for the victims of authoritarian regimes, and I absolutely do not believe that the way to help them is to collaborate with the very system that oppresses them. Pretending otherwise sounds like Newspeak to me. > I know some people prefer to stick their noses up and hold what they perceive as the moral high ground Maybe some people are like that, but this is unimportant. The important thing is this: you have to put your own oxygen mask on before helping others. If we in the west allow our companies to collaborate with systems that hold values that are repugnant to our own, then we will become like those systems, not the other way around. There will be nowhere to hide. No thank you. Let's not be naive: say what you want about the Chinese government, but they are not imbeciles. If they did not perceive Dragonfly as something that would help them maintain their repressive apparatus, they would not allow it.
- khc 7y ago
  Comparing this to slavery is silly. This is more like when the entire country is enslaved, and you move to the country. The analogy breaks down because the fact that you may or may not have slaves doesn't change the supply and demand of the slaves. When you said all information is filtered by the government, that shows your ignorance of how things work in China. The rest are not worth responding to.
  - TelmoMenezes 7y ago
    > The analogy breaks down because the fact that you may or may not have slaves doesn't change the supply and demand of the slaves. Nothing that I said is related to the supply and demand of anything. > When you said all information is filtered by the government, that shows your ignorance of how things work in China. All information is potentially filtered / monitored by the government. I am well aware that people use VPNs to circumvent censorship, and that censorship itself is highly flawed. That does not change the fact that, once inside such a repressive apparatus, you cannot be certain of anything you read and you cannot feel safe in reading it. This is a country where people "disappear" for wrongthinking. > The rest are not worth responding to. This is the typical answer of those who have no counter-arguments.
gurkendoktor 7y ago
If Google had more business in China, the CCP could blackmail them into censoring their results in other countries as well. Just look at how the CCP bullied international airlines about Taiwan, the laws being awfully vague hasn't helped one bit. Letting the CCP export its censorship back into the West in the hopes that Google will improve life in China is a hell of a gamble.
- devoply 7y ago
  Yes exactly until CCP reforms itself there is no point in deepening business relationships which we know will lead to more censorship against what are mostly unjust, inhumane, undemocratic policies of the CCP. Mostly to protect the party and its chosen form of governance which has been rejected by most of the rest of the world.
  - educationdata 7y ago
    Imagine this is an online discussion board for doctors, and now we are having a discussion on this topic in the news: "China is harvesting organs from detainees, tribunal concludes" https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/17/china-is-harvesting-organs-from-detainees-uk-tribunal-concludes https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/17/china-is-harve... And now imagine this comment goes on the top: > Our best surgeons in the U.S. should fly to China to help them with organ transportation. Without us, they will do organ transportation using those organs anyway. But we have better technology and higher successful rate. So why don't we just go there to help them save more lives?
- dirtyid 7y ago
  >bullied international airlines Airlines only remove Taiwanese paraphernalia when flights operates in China - you know complying to domestic Chinese laws. That's completely reasonable stuff that doesn't extend beyond Chinese borders. Has Bing exported censorship back to the West. Has EU right to be forgotten even made it's way to US and Canada? This is just fear mongering.
  - miles 7y ago
Allower 7y ago
Do you not realize that hundreds of millions of people deserve better than an authoritarian government? If you indeed want a better life for these people, censorship is something you must fight, not acquiesce to.
ctime 7y ago
Enabling censorship and oppression should not be a race to the bottom - which is what you are advocating for. I don't understand how any search engine approved in China could be "surfacing better information in queries" - they are all effectively under the same authoritative control. Are you placing your believe in hopes and prayers that real information will be "accidentally" leaked to the oppressed masses in China? How cute.
- khc 7y ago
  How am I advocating for race to the bottom?
  - reallydude 7y ago
    If a condition is already bad, why bother trying to make it better? ie: > Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored "...so it isn't helping, it's just business as usual." The counterpoint is that having choice is helpful, especially when the choices include user segments, even if you don't experience it. Also, participating in oppressive behavior is immoral, regardless of the outcome.
    - khc 7y ago
      My claim is that Google entering China is making a bad situation better
      - infamia 7y ago
        While I understand the instinct to collaborate, I don't see it. No one is better than Google at correlating and extrapolating data about people. Any relatively minor improvements that Google provides would seem to be overwhelmed by handing these new data gathering and correlation capabilities to the Chinese government.
- ajiang 7y ago
  You can make your same point without being dismissive.
tempguy9999 7y ago
> Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships It doesn't follow to me. The reverse actually. 'laws in this area are often vague' for a reason - so that You Can't Do That becomes not a judicial matter with precise as possible definition, but a matter of personal feeling. Then the rulers can come down hard on whoever just because they didn't like something. That's more likely to pressure companies into being on the conservative side of things; censoring a little more rather than a litte less. And google's in it for the money in a big, rich market.
- khc 7y ago
  That's definitely the intend of having vague laws. But whether Google is in it or not doesn't change that
  - tempguy9999 7y ago
    > ... doesn't change that Doesn't change what? The vagueness of the laws? Whether google's in it or not? I'm sorry, I don't understand your point.
chvid 7y ago
Agreed. And let’s not forgot that China used to have an open internet. It was not until the xinjiang riots around 2009 that google and others got blocked.
- joyeuse6701 7y ago
  Not true, I was in China prior to 2009 and a VPN was required.
jsharf 7y ago
Are we even helping them at that point? It's just another censored search engine. They already have that.
- cirenehc 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wei_Zexi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wei_Zexi
cat199 7y ago
> Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. so, maintaining the status quo is not 'help'? > I know some people prefer to stick their noses up and hold what they perceive as the moral high ground, but do consider how lives of hundreds of millions of people will be affected by your actions/inactions. so which is it if one says no? sticking ones nose up or considering how the lives of millions of people will be affected by your actions/inactions? or is it only sticking ones nose up when you disagree with the decision?
bduerst 7y ago
Agreed. Some of the criticism of the censorship also shows a underlying lack of understanding how search engines works. The Chinese firewall blocks the websites, not the search engines. What was Google supposed to to? Show links to dead sites that don't load in the browser?
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  > What was Google supposed to to? Show links to dead sites that don't load in the browser? All other operational problems aside: Yes, I think that would be great! Let users know what their government is censoring.
  - bduerst 7y ago
    The purpose of a search engine is to give results wanted for the user query - showing a dead website probably isn't want the user wants. Google already handles this with DMCA takedowns in the US. If you search a website that has been removed by DMCA, Google will notify you at the bottom of the screen. Telling the user that N number results are hidden because of censorship is probably a better approach.
    - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
      No, it's probably not what the user wants in that moment, but it's what they should see. And under some circumstances, it may quite literally be the most helpful result. If someone searches for Tiananmen Square, what they really need is a hint that it's time to switch to a VPN.
      - bduerst 7y ago
        This comes down to the difference in underlying values of different cultures. Forcing what you think people should want onto others when it's not what they really want isn't effective, even despite your relative moral justifications. There are ways to accomplish notifying the user of censorship which isn't shoving it in their face. Users simply won't use Google if it's beating them with a stick to remind them that websites are censored and that users should use a VPN. Chinese citizens know about the censorship and most, outside of specific provinces, simply don't care. Those who do already use a VPN.
TearsInTheRain 7y ago
This is a weak argument. The base response to a repressive totalitarian regime is non-cooperation, not support them and hope they will be marginally less oppressive. Any support legitimizes their actions and further entrenches their oppression
- __sy__ 7y ago
  Yes and yes again. This is so key for people to understand. And this is why google should have never touched this fucking project in the first place. Many continue to push this logic that somehow we should continue to engage with the PRC. I’ve spent a decent amount of time in China, have relatives there...etc, and I’m convinced that this approach is 100% FLAWED. The CCP derives its authority from economic growth--next year will be better than this year, so don't challenge us. At this point in their development, for this growth to continue, it now requires science/tech innovation (see “middle income trap” theory / many of my acquaintances have moved factories elsewhere due to cost in PRC). Any work we do with them in those are areas only make the oppression problem worse, both for Chinese people and for us now/eventually (e.g. Hollywood will never criticize China; not the same with Russia). EDITS: typo
  - gdy 7y ago
    "The CCP derives its authority from economic growth" Why is it a bad thing?
    - gurkendoktor 7y ago
      That's not a bad thing, but it means that you can't help the economy without helping the party. It's either both or neither.
      - gdy 7y ago
        But if a party policies help economy grow, why is it bad to help party?
        7y ago
educationdata 7y ago
Anybody realize how pathetic it is to have this comment on the top on this website?
- pteredactyl 7y ago
  "I'm from the area so I'm an expert. Here's a circular argument. Hopefully you don't notice but take my point to heart because I'm an expert. Oh by the way, anyone who disagrees with me is pretentious." Commenter must be a Google employee.
AlexandrB 7y ago
Much of Google’s revenue comes from the ability to track individual users. A Chinese Google Search would not be any more censored than Baidu, but it may be a much richer source of information for Chinese law enforcement agencies.
- justicezyx 7y ago
  Well, it does help people reduce the chance of victimized by Baidu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wei_Zexi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wei_Zexi
- bduerst 7y ago
  Most of Google's revenue comes from search ads, which are intent-based on the individual query. The display/admob/etc. networks that use demographic targeting don't make up as much of the search take.
cwkoss 7y ago
I think this sort of attitude is how most of the evils in the world are justified by those perpetrating and excusing them.
pteredactyl 7y ago
I don't follow. If Google helps entities that censor, they censor, or at least are complicit in some way. Further, there's the whole 'national security' angle. Whether real or imagined, some people don't like the idea of US entities helping foreign entities gain a competitive advantage. Not sure how pointing to a feigned moral superiority of 'those who stick their noses up' helps your argument either.
- yourbandsucks 7y ago
  In this comment, you're expressing concern that Google would be implicated by participating in the censorship, but you're not expressing any concern for the welfare of the 1.6B Chinese who would gain access to Google. I'm not OP but I'd consider that a very 'sticking your nose up' take on the situation. It seems to consider westerners' self-image as more important than Chinese access.
  - pteredactyl 7y ago
    Your argument assumes Chinese citizens using Google is somehow better for them than Baidu. I have no idea. But I will not make the claim to know what's best for 1.6B, as you do. But to go down that road, I'd argue it's worse for the citizens. As others here have pointed out. Google's software enables advanced citizen tracking for the Communist Party of China. Prove me wrong though. Show me how Google China is better for 1.6B Chinese.
    - yourbandsucks 7y ago
      More options better than fewer options. Especially for English language search.
    - khc 7y ago
      Yes as someone who has used Baidu, I am making the argument that using Google is better than using Baidu, at least Baidu as it exists today. It's possible that once Google enters China, Baidu would get better. But we won't find out now.
jcytong 7y ago
I hear you since I have a similar background (born and grew up in HK). I really wish that the Chinese people can benefit from better services (search, social media) and also the people in the west can benefit from some the the innovation in China. Though I find that as a company, this is a slippery slope that it's better not to get on in the first place. Can Google enter China and slowly affect change? Possibly But from the track record of China and especially what's happening in Hong Kong, cooperating seems to be just feeding the beast. There needs to be genuine interest in opening up and making a change. So far, I do not see that but perhaps one day we can get there.
daltonlp 7y ago
> Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships "Vague" is a neutral way of putting it. The laws are "whatever the party declares today. Also, whatever the party declares tomorrow." The whole value proposition of doing business in China is a gamble that tomorrow's set of party strictures will be equal or better than today's. (Spolier: they won't!) And yes, "the party" isn't a single monolithic thing. It's shorthand for "whichever levels of authority have influence and interest in what you're doing." And no, this isn't comparably similar how the US or any other democratic nation operates.
Fej 7y ago
It is not, strictly speaking, about censorship. Google is the best in the world at gathering information about people. If they operate in China, they will have to give over all that information to the Chinese government, of course. They have already built the largest surveillance apparatus in the Western world that has ever existed - imagine what the CCP could do with that? Yes, Baidu already does this. But no one can do it as well as Google.
- prewett 7y ago
  And the CCP could force to give up information about people who aren't in China and who have never been Baidu users. Or information about people who are in China now, but the information was collected while they were outside China.
Chris_Chambers 7y ago
Information doesn’t magically free slaves.
PavlovsCat 7y ago
Not taking totalitarianism itself seriously, but talking about minor, gimmick pieces of information, is not seeing the woods for all the trees. The damage that does outside of China more than outweighs the ultimately meaningless benefits of appeasement that might result within China.
bctnry 7y ago
For people who against this, please take a look at the Death of Zexi Wei[1]. And just for context, Baidu is, currently, the only big player, and in most of the time considered to be the only player in the search engine market of Mainland China. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wei_Zexi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wei_Zexi
hkai 7y ago
Do you think Google would need to surrender some of my personal information to China, if they are pressured to do so by the Chinese authorities? I live in Hong Kong.

by khc 7y ago

gowld 7y ago

It's not just censorship. It never was. Dragonfly also includes actively assisting the Chinese Communist Party in identifying and persecuting people who look for information about freedom or for information about crimes committed by the Party/government

jmeng0122 7y ago
any article or press to support your claims?
- lern_too_spel 7y ago
  Searches would be linked to identifiable information for logged in users: https://theintercept.com/2018/09/14/google-china-prototype-links-searches-to-phone-numbers/ https://theintercept.com/2018/09/14/google-china-prototype-l... The Chinese government would be able to access that data through Google's joint venture partner in China who actually controls the data.
- bduerst 7y ago
  The proposal for dragonfly had two conditions set by the Chinese government - the first was to provide censored search results in compliance with the firewall. The second was to link search queries to user phone numbers, which a director tried to hide and many employees revolted against: https://theintercept.com/2018/09/21/google-suppresses-memo-revealing-plans-to-closely-track-search-users-in-china/ https://theintercept.com/2018/09/21/google-suppresses-memo-r...

whatshisface 7y ago

You're assuming that Google would act as a mole, implementing the censorship in bad faith. Why wouldn't they advance the state of the art for censorship, making it even more effective in an attempt to please the Chinese government? In fact, if China is allowing them in, the party must have some reason to believe the second one will come to pass instead of the first.

sandworm101 7y ago
Or china quietly takes direct control over the machines biult and run by google. Google then, from the user's perspective, has become that problem governmemt.
khc 7y ago
They could. Do you know that's the case? China allows a lot of foreign investments and to think that the only reason is to further their censorship is silly.
- grimjack00 7y ago
  Of course there are other reasons, such as co-opting foreign technology.
- inferiorhuman 7y ago
  They could. Do you know that's the case? China allows a lot of foreign investments and to think that the only reason is to further their censorship is silly. And to think that Google would never submit to Chinese censorship in earnest is naive. Yahoo![1], Google, Microsoft, Cisco, AOL, Skype, and Nortel all willingly partook in aiding the censorship apparatus. Yahoo! even went so far as to out journalists and political targets for the Chinese government. Why wouldn't Google do the same? 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Yahoo!#Work_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Yahoo!#Work_in_th...
  - dirtyid 7y ago
    The question is not whether they would do the same - but whether they would the practice to other regions. Did Microsoft, Cisco, AOL, Skype, and Nortel?

TelmoMenezes 7y ago

> Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. So what? That does not make censorship morally acceptable. This would be the same as saying that using slave labor is ok, if you do it in a country that already accepts slavery anyway, and you are treating you slaves better. > And by surfacing better information for queries, it can also help people finding what they want for things that are not censored. Once the state is performing censorship there is no such thing as "better information". If all information is filtered by the government, then all information is suspicious. > but do consider how lives of hundreds of millions of people will be affected by your actions/inactions. I have profound sympathy for the victims of authoritarian regimes, and I absolutely do not believe that the way to help them is to collaborate with the very system that oppresses them. Pretending otherwise sounds like Newspeak to me. > I know some people prefer to stick their noses up and hold what they perceive as the moral high ground Maybe some people are like that, but this is unimportant. The important thing is this: you have to put your own oxygen mask on before helping others. If we in the west allow our companies to collaborate with systems that hold values that are repugnant to our own, then we will become like those systems, not the other way around. There will be nowhere to hide. No thank you. Let's not be naive: say what you want about the Chinese government, but they are not imbeciles. If they did not perceive Dragonfly as something that would help them maintain their repressive apparatus, they would not allow it.

khc 7y ago
Comparing this to slavery is silly. This is more like when the entire country is enslaved, and you move to the country. The analogy breaks down because the fact that you may or may not have slaves doesn't change the supply and demand of the slaves. When you said all information is filtered by the government, that shows your ignorance of how things work in China. The rest are not worth responding to.
- TelmoMenezes 7y ago
  > The analogy breaks down because the fact that you may or may not have slaves doesn't change the supply and demand of the slaves. Nothing that I said is related to the supply and demand of anything. > When you said all information is filtered by the government, that shows your ignorance of how things work in China. All information is potentially filtered / monitored by the government. I am well aware that people use VPNs to circumvent censorship, and that censorship itself is highly flawed. That does not change the fact that, once inside such a repressive apparatus, you cannot be certain of anything you read and you cannot feel safe in reading it. This is a country where people "disappear" for wrongthinking. > The rest are not worth responding to. This is the typical answer of those who have no counter-arguments.

gurkendoktor 7y ago

If Google had more business in China, the CCP could blackmail them into censoring their results in other countries as well. Just look at how the CCP bullied international airlines about Taiwan, the laws being awfully vague hasn't helped one bit. Letting the CCP export its censorship back into the West in the hopes that Google will improve life in China is a hell of a gamble.

devoply 7y ago
Yes exactly until CCP reforms itself there is no point in deepening business relationships which we know will lead to more censorship against what are mostly unjust, inhumane, undemocratic policies of the CCP. Mostly to protect the party and its chosen form of governance which has been rejected by most of the rest of the world.
- educationdata 7y ago
  Imagine this is an online discussion board for doctors, and now we are having a discussion on this topic in the news: "China is harvesting organs from detainees, tribunal concludes" https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/17/china-is-harvesting-organs-from-detainees-uk-tribunal-concludes https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/17/china-is-harve... And now imagine this comment goes on the top: > Our best surgeons in the U.S. should fly to China to help them with organ transportation. Without us, they will do organ transportation using those organs anyway. But we have better technology and higher successful rate. So why don't we just go there to help them save more lives?
dirtyid 7y ago
>bullied international airlines Airlines only remove Taiwanese paraphernalia when flights operates in China - you know complying to domestic Chinese laws. That's completely reasonable stuff that doesn't extend beyond Chinese borders. Has Bing exported censorship back to the West. Has EU right to be forgotten even made it's way to US and Canada? This is just fear mongering.
- miles 7y ago

Allower 7y ago

Do you not realize that hundreds of millions of people deserve better than an authoritarian government? If you indeed want a better life for these people, censorship is something you must fight, not acquiesce to.

ctime 7y ago

Enabling censorship and oppression should not be a race to the bottom - which is what you are advocating for. I don't understand how any search engine approved in China could be "surfacing better information in queries" - they are all effectively under the same authoritative control. Are you placing your believe in hopes and prayers that real information will be "accidentally" leaked to the oppressed masses in China? How cute.

khc 7y ago
How am I advocating for race to the bottom?
- reallydude 7y ago
  If a condition is already bad, why bother trying to make it better? ie: > Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored "...so it isn't helping, it's just business as usual." The counterpoint is that having choice is helpful, especially when the choices include user segments, even if you don't experience it. Also, participating in oppressive behavior is immoral, regardless of the outcome.
  - khc 7y ago
    My claim is that Google entering China is making a bad situation better
    - infamia 7y ago
      While I understand the instinct to collaborate, I don't see it. No one is better than Google at correlating and extrapolating data about people. Any relatively minor improvements that Google provides would seem to be overwhelmed by handing these new data gathering and correlation capabilities to the Chinese government.
ajiang 7y ago
You can make your same point without being dismissive.

tempguy9999 7y ago

> Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships It doesn't follow to me. The reverse actually. 'laws in this area are often vague' for a reason - so that You Can't Do That becomes not a judicial matter with precise as possible definition, but a matter of personal feeling. Then the rulers can come down hard on whoever just because they didn't like something. That's more likely to pressure companies into being on the conservative side of things; censoring a little more rather than a litte less. And google's in it for the money in a big, rich market.

khc 7y ago
That's definitely the intend of having vague laws. But whether Google is in it or not doesn't change that
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  > ... doesn't change that Doesn't change what? The vagueness of the laws? Whether google's in it or not? I'm sorry, I don't understand your point.

chvid 7y ago

Agreed. And let’s not forgot that China used to have an open internet. It was not until the xinjiang riots around 2009 that google and others got blocked.

joyeuse6701 7y ago
Not true, I was in China prior to 2009 and a VPN was required.

jsharf 7y ago

Are we even helping them at that point? It's just another censored search engine. They already have that.

cirenehc 7y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wei_Zexi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wei_Zexi

cat199 7y ago

> Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. so, maintaining the status quo is not 'help'? > I know some people prefer to stick their noses up and hold what they perceive as the moral high ground, but do consider how lives of hundreds of millions of people will be affected by your actions/inactions. so which is it if one says no? sticking ones nose up or considering how the lives of millions of people will be affected by your actions/inactions? or is it only sticking ones nose up when you disagree with the decision?

bduerst 7y ago

Agreed. Some of the criticism of the censorship also shows a underlying lack of understanding how search engines works. The Chinese firewall blocks the websites, not the search engines. What was Google supposed to to? Show links to dead sites that don't load in the browser?

Wowfunhappy 7y ago
> What was Google supposed to to? Show links to dead sites that don't load in the browser? All other operational problems aside: Yes, I think that would be great! Let users know what their government is censoring.
- bduerst 7y ago
  The purpose of a search engine is to give results wanted for the user query - showing a dead website probably isn't want the user wants. Google already handles this with DMCA takedowns in the US. If you search a website that has been removed by DMCA, Google will notify you at the bottom of the screen. Telling the user that N number results are hidden because of censorship is probably a better approach.
  - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
    No, it's probably not what the user wants in that moment, but it's what they should see. And under some circumstances, it may quite literally be the most helpful result. If someone searches for Tiananmen Square, what they really need is a hint that it's time to switch to a VPN.
    - bduerst 7y ago
      This comes down to the difference in underlying values of different cultures. Forcing what you think people should want onto others when it's not what they really want isn't effective, even despite your relative moral justifications. There are ways to accomplish notifying the user of censorship which isn't shoving it in their face. Users simply won't use Google if it's beating them with a stick to remind them that websites are censored and that users should use a VPN. Chinese citizens know about the censorship and most, outside of specific provinces, simply don't care. Those who do already use a VPN.

TearsInTheRain 7y ago

This is a weak argument. The base response to a repressive totalitarian regime is non-cooperation, not support them and hope they will be marginally less oppressive. Any support legitimizes their actions and further entrenches their oppression

__sy__ 7y ago
Yes and yes again. This is so key for people to understand. And this is why google should have never touched this fucking project in the first place. Many continue to push this logic that somehow we should continue to engage with the PRC. I’ve spent a decent amount of time in China, have relatives there...etc, and I’m convinced that this approach is 100% FLAWED. The CCP derives its authority from economic growth--next year will be better than this year, so don't challenge us. At this point in their development, for this growth to continue, it now requires science/tech innovation (see “middle income trap” theory / many of my acquaintances have moved factories elsewhere due to cost in PRC). Any work we do with them in those are areas only make the oppression problem worse, both for Chinese people and for us now/eventually (e.g. Hollywood will never criticize China; not the same with Russia). EDITS: typo
- gdy 7y ago
  "The CCP derives its authority from economic growth" Why is it a bad thing?
  - gurkendoktor 7y ago
    That's not a bad thing, but it means that you can't help the economy without helping the party. It's either both or neither.
    - gdy 7y ago
      But if a party policies help economy grow, why is it bad to help party?
      - 7y ago

educationdata 7y ago

Anybody realize how pathetic it is to have this comment on the top on this website?

pteredactyl 7y ago
"I'm from the area so I'm an expert. Here's a circular argument. Hopefully you don't notice but take my point to heart because I'm an expert. Oh by the way, anyone who disagrees with me is pretentious." Commenter must be a Google employee.

AlexandrB 7y ago

Much of Google’s revenue comes from the ability to track individual users. A Chinese Google Search would not be any more censored than Baidu, but it may be a much richer source of information for Chinese law enforcement agencies.

justicezyx 7y ago
Well, it does help people reduce the chance of victimized by Baidu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wei_Zexi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wei_Zexi
bduerst 7y ago
Most of Google's revenue comes from search ads, which are intent-based on the individual query. The display/admob/etc. networks that use demographic targeting don't make up as much of the search take.

cwkoss 7y ago

I think this sort of attitude is how most of the evils in the world are justified by those perpetrating and excusing them.

pteredactyl 7y ago

I don't follow. If Google helps entities that censor, they censor, or at least are complicit in some way. Further, there's the whole 'national security' angle. Whether real or imagined, some people don't like the idea of US entities helping foreign entities gain a competitive advantage. Not sure how pointing to a feigned moral superiority of 'those who stick their noses up' helps your argument either.

yourbandsucks 7y ago
In this comment, you're expressing concern that Google would be implicated by participating in the censorship, but you're not expressing any concern for the welfare of the 1.6B Chinese who would gain access to Google. I'm not OP but I'd consider that a very 'sticking your nose up' take on the situation. It seems to consider westerners' self-image as more important than Chinese access.
- pteredactyl 7y ago
  Your argument assumes Chinese citizens using Google is somehow better for them than Baidu. I have no idea. But I will not make the claim to know what's best for 1.6B, as you do. But to go down that road, I'd argue it's worse for the citizens. As others here have pointed out. Google's software enables advanced citizen tracking for the Communist Party of China. Prove me wrong though. Show me how Google China is better for 1.6B Chinese.
  - yourbandsucks 7y ago
    More options better than fewer options. Especially for English language search.
  - khc 7y ago
    Yes as someone who has used Baidu, I am making the argument that using Google is better than using Baidu, at least Baidu as it exists today. It's possible that once Google enters China, Baidu would get better. But we won't find out now.

jcytong 7y ago

I hear you since I have a similar background (born and grew up in HK). I really wish that the Chinese people can benefit from better services (search, social media) and also the people in the west can benefit from some the the innovation in China. Though I find that as a company, this is a slippery slope that it's better not to get on in the first place. Can Google enter China and slowly affect change? Possibly But from the track record of China and especially what's happening in Hong Kong, cooperating seems to be just feeding the beast. There needs to be genuine interest in opening up and making a change. So far, I do not see that but perhaps one day we can get there.

daltonlp 7y ago

> Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships "Vague" is a neutral way of putting it. The laws are "whatever the party declares today. Also, whatever the party declares tomorrow." The whole value proposition of doing business in China is a gamble that tomorrow's set of party strictures will be equal or better than today's. (Spolier: they won't!) And yes, "the party" isn't a single monolithic thing. It's shorthand for "whichever levels of authority have influence and interest in what you're doing." And no, this isn't comparably similar how the US or any other democratic nation operates.

Fej 7y ago

It is not, strictly speaking, about censorship. Google is the best in the world at gathering information about people. If they operate in China, they will have to give over all that information to the Chinese government, of course. They have already built the largest surveillance apparatus in the Western world that has ever existed - imagine what the CCP could do with that? Yes, Baidu already does this. But no one can do it as well as Google.

prewett 7y ago
And the CCP could force to give up information about people who aren't in China and who have never been Baidu users. Or information about people who are in China now, but the information was collected while they were outside China.

Chris_Chambers 7y ago

Information doesn’t magically free slaves.

PavlovsCat 7y ago

Not taking totalitarianism itself seriously, but talking about minor, gimmick pieces of information, is not seeing the woods for all the trees. The damage that does outside of China more than outweighs the ultimately meaningless benefits of appeasement that might result within China.

bctnry 7y ago

For people who against this, please take a look at the Death of Zexi Wei[1]. And just for context, Baidu is, currently, the only big player, and in most of the time considered to be the only player in the search engine market of Mainland China. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wei_Zexi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wei_Zexi

hkai 7y ago

Do you think Google would need to surrender some of my personal information to China, if they are pressured to do so by the Chinese authorities? I live in Hong Kong.