9 ms·

This is one of the reasons I don't stay in airbnbs - the system breaks the social contract. The reason hotels are more expensive is because they have to follow

by terryf 7y ago

This is one of the reasons I don't stay in airbnbs - the system breaks the social contract. The reason hotels are more expensive is because they have to follow a bunch of rules that makes everyone's life a bit better by having insurance for risks and zoning and so on. However you have to pay a bit more. So, if you ever find yourself complaining "I wish people did something in a not the absolute cheapest and effortless way" so that society in general would benefit - don't stay in airbnb.

ubermonkey 7y ago
A very reasonable point; however, AirBnB & its ilk end up being the only viable option in some cases. There's a huge bicycling event in Texas every spring, and it overnights in a town that is, most of the time, very very quiet. The meager hotel inventory is sufficient 364 days of the year, but absurdly low for the weekend of the MS150. & so, homeshare sites make a killing that weekend.
- SenHeng 7y ago
  The exception should not make the rule. Your example is one of the few edge cases where AirBnB works. The OP is talking about an everyday situation where AirBnB has instead had a detrimental effect on residents as well as would-be residents.
  - mensetmanusman 7y ago
    This is the type of NIMBYism that is contributing to the housing policy problems. Instead of using nuance and recognizing the good and bad, only the bad is focused on and the proposals are to throw it all out.
    - ppseafield 7y ago
      Generally NIMBYism involves push-back on policies that increase housing density to help more (and generally poorer) people live somewhere. AirBNB without regulation (and enforcement) doesn't help more people live in an area - in fact it removes long term residences from the market in favor of generating more revenue for existing property owners. Reducing the long term housing supply increases demand and prices, thus keeping poorer folks out. Personally I don't mind AirBNB if it's only people renting out rooms in their residences. For instance here in Portland the law requires this. But it's poorly enforced.
      - pacaro 7y ago
        NIMBYism isn't only about housing, it refers to any pushback on a change that is generally agreed as good/useful/necessary on the basis that "sure we need this thing, but not where I live". Currently we hear it a lot regarding housing density, but it's also a factor in locating sewage treatment plants, nuclear waste disposal sites, etc.
        ppseafield 7y ago
        Indeed, that's a better overall definition. My comment was in the context of AirBnB and housing.
  - peanutgal2600 7y ago
    In pretty much any small city in developing nations, AirBNB is the only viable option. Many of these cities have experienced rapid growth thanks to EU and Chinese loans, but the hotel infrastructure has not kept up. In one Balkan city I visit frequently, I can pay $150/night in a 40 year old Holiday Inn that was condemned a few years ago for structural reasons (then the decision was reversed), or I can pay $15 a night in an AirBNB some poor schlub making $200/month is renting out to make ends meet. I'm going to choose door number 2 every time. Any time I am given the choice to buy something, especially a higher-quality experience at a lower price, from a human being versus a corporation, the human gets my money. Just like I prefer Uber to taxis, I prefer AirBNB to hotels. Even Hostels now, if I go into Amsterdam I will pay $35-$50 per night. If there are two of us, the $50 per night AirBNB is our choice. These businesses flourish because the social contract is broken. Creating artificial scarcity will harm the community in the long run, preventing tourism and limiting the ability of home owners / tenants to make a couple of extra bucks on under-utilized resources. Whatever this social contract is, I've never signed it, and I don't really recognize anybody else telling me I must abide by this contract upon which I was given no opportunity to vote or discuss.
- pintxo 7y ago
  Also for an one-off event, one could organize private rooms via the event organizer. No AirBnB needed.
  - JackFr 7y ago
    E.g. for Hall of Fame weekend in Cooperstown (a fairly tiny town), the Baseball Hall of Fame sets up house shares with residents for MLB personnel.
- mysterydip 7y ago
  Seems to me that this is a logistical issue the event planners should fix. Are there any other towns nearby that would make a better overnight spot now that the event has grown larger?
voidwtf 7y ago
I would argue that ‘people’ break the social contract. These people know where they are, what time it is, and mostly what’s expected of their surroundings. I think they just don’t care. I’m guessing it’s similar to anonymity on the Internet, where people behave differently because they don’t expect to have to face those they harm.
- ianopolous 7y ago
  There are no repeated interactions: https://ncase.me/trust https://ncase.me/trust
  - dnh44 7y ago
    I just wanted to leave a comment saying that I thought this link is worth clicking. I suspect people who regularly “cheat” in business for example are acutely aware of the necessity of finding a constant source new interactions. I also suspect that the stereotype of people from small towns being more naive than people from cities is also related to this. It all seems kind of obvious to me as I write this post but I don’t think I’ve actually consciously directly thought about things on those terms until just now.
- snarf21 7y ago
  I would disagree slightly. They treat it like any other hotel. There are always some overtly noisy people at a hotel. There are always people who will leave crap in the breakfast areas because "they are paying" and it is someone else's job. The difference is that someone's apartment isn't employing the same people a hotel is. And like the thread mentions, they are breaking a social contract of the building even if they aren't breaking a legal rule.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- rhacker 7y ago
  "I think they just don't care" Yep, if you ever lived in a vacation destination you know.
vain 7y ago
It isn't true that airbnb rooms cost less than a hotel, at least in Central London. The reason they can appear cheaper is that you can cram 8 people into a small flat or even a room. I was renting a room in a flat in Soho. The other floors slowly got converted to amateur hotels for airbnb/booking. Many a night, I'd see families stuck downstairs with luggage. They would then phone a capricious property manager who would tell them to walk about two miles to the key safe. Many a time, they didn't have a phone that worked in London, and I would lend them my phone. One angry customer checked in to the 5* boutique hotel next door after waiting for an hour. The hotel was about the same price. I wonder if he got his money back. I doubt it. I don't book airbnbs. Hospitality is not for greedy unregulated amateurs. Of course, there might be some great hosts, but I like consistency.
- Symbiote 7y ago
  You are much more generous than me. I avoided the tourists with luggage looking puzzled standing at the front door; if I saw some I'd use the rear door instead. When they rang my buzzer, I'd tell them AirBnB was banned, and leave the line open so they couldn't buzz anyone else for 2-3 minutes until it disconnected. I also reported the apartments to the building owner, and they were kicked out after a few months.
noxToken 7y ago
>This is one of the reasons I don't stay in airbnbs - the system breaks the social contract. But it doesn't. People are breaking the social contract by not respecting the area. If I invite friends from out of town over for the weekend, is that breaking the social contract? If I'm going away for 2 weeks, and I have friends house sit for the duration, is that breaking the social contract? Tourists and visitors existing in a space (unless it's too many) isn't inherently violating the social contract. Their selfish behavior is the issue. I understand what you mean. I have neighbors down the road who throw a massive family gathering once per year that I'm certain breaks noise, traffic and safety ordinances[0] due to the sound system still going at 10PM and parked cars littering both sides of the streets. That's not due to Airbnb or any other hospitality broker. If you have an issue with visitors, talk to them. It's possible that they don't even know they're being a nuisance. I have had cops called on me for a noise complaint. It would have been a better use of everyone's time to knock and let us know. [0]: As far as I know, no one reports the reunion/gathering. I like to think that since we're all very respectful of each other's property and space, breaking the rules for a special event once in a while is no big deal.
- bluejekyll 7y ago
  > It would have been a better use of everyone's time to knock and let us know. Sadly, too many people now are afraid of conflict, even small conflict, they prefer to call the police rather than deal with others directly. They don’t want to deal with it themselves. That anxiety I’m sure goes up with unknown Airbnbers, and so raises the likely good that people will probably call the police instead.
  - rhacker 7y ago
    Sadly, too many people have become toxic. My first action is usually to talk to people, asking them to turn things down until I can't hear it. It works increasingly less over time. Instead I get people that turn the volume up. I am slowly moving towards calling the police first lately.
    - theflyinghorse 7y ago
ryanmarsh 7y ago
> I don't stay in airbnbs - the system breaks the social contract. I didn't know I was party to this contract, and I couldn't tell you what the terms are. I travel a lot for work and I stay almost exclusively in AirBnb because I like having my money and a nice home-like experience. I still don't understand how society would benefit from AirBnb not existing and us being where we started with the hotel cabal.
- okmokmz 7y ago
  >I still don't understand how society would benefit from AirBnb not existing and us being where we started with the hotel cabal. Many of the people on this site don't see or experience the downsides, as we are privileged enough to own our own properties or have our own space not impacted by airbnb. However, consider for example a family living in inexpensive housing with parents that work and children that are in school. There have been many cases of wealthy individuals purchasing/renting blocks of cheap apartments/condos and turning them into defacto hotels with no rules leading to partying, destruction of property, increased crime, and other issues. How would you feel if where you lived was suddenly overrun with short term tenants that are having a negative impact on your way of life, and not being able to afford to move? That is how society would benefit form AIrbnb not existing. It may not benefit engineers making 100k+, but it would positively impact many in lower socioeconomic classes https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/26/reader-center/airbnb-new-york-city.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/26/reader-center/airbnb-new-... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/sep/17/airbnb-nuisance-neighbours-tribunal-ruling https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/sep/17/airbnb-nu... https://www.huffpost.com/entry/airbnb-affordable-housing-gentrification-tourism-fairbnb_n_5c5949c3e4b00187b554828d https://www.huffpost.com/entry/airbnb-affordable-housing-gen...
  - okmokmz 7y ago
    I find it interesting that this comment initially had 7 upvotes and is now down to 2. There is nothing factually wrong about what I wrote, I guess well off engineers are just upset at the thought of potentially losing their cheap accommodations and convenience despite it having a negative impact on many individuals lives
impendia 7y ago
Personally, I find the "social contract" to be too biased in favor of homeowners. They control municipal governments and hence zoning laws. If these homeowners decide that they don't want to see visitors in their neighborhoods, they can decide they don't have to. So, in effect, this "contract" was unilaterally imposed by one party to it. I noticed this particularly in Princeton, NJ. A cute, small, and overly expensive town. Anyway, I was visiting the university on business, and if you stay downtown it is easy to get everywhere without a car. Except... there are few hotels downtown, and no budget hotels. For those you have to stay near the highway (and hence rent a car). The "social contract" would require that I view my own presence as a nuisance, even though I was being quiet and going to bed early. I decided that I didn't have any qualms about renting via Airbnb/Craigslist.
- rhacker 7y ago
  So let's say I buy a quiet home in a peaceful neighborhood. I've risked my life savings on this home so I can get work done, meditate, relax and not hear barking dogs, children scream, etc.. So you're saying I don't have the right to want those things? That new people coming into that kind of environment should be allowed to, even though there is nearly literally anywhere else in the f-ing world they can go. I'm not saying you, in particular, are going to bother me, you sound quiet - but why should I give up on upholding the social contracts the neighborhood has established for decades for a rowdy party animals to blast through every weekend?
  - impendia 7y ago
    I certainly believe you have the right to want those things. And moreover, there are noise ordinances and related laws, and I do believe those should be enforced. But, I also believe that new people coming into that kind of environment should be allowed to. People step on each other's toes, and it can be annoying. But I still don't believe that people have the right to keep other people out.
    - Symbiote 7y ago
      How do I get a noise ordinance enforced, when the noise is 2 minutes of people shouting and clattering luggage down the stairs at 4am on Monday, to get their cheap Ryanair flight home? My neighbours are much more careful at 4am, and each might only leave like this a couple of times a year. An apartment on AirBnB has this pretty much every week.
dylan604 7y ago
> However you have to pay a bit more. I've been looking into AirBnB for certain situations, and because people tell me they are cheaper than hotels. However, I have found that in a lot of cases, hotels end up being cheaper. The big gotcha is the prices shown are the fee for the room (or house or whatever), but then at the end they tack on exorbitant "cleaning" fees that I have found to be greater than the rental fee. They have taken to using big graphics promoting living wages as a way to justify the extensive cleaning fees. In the end, it is much less hassle for me to just book the hotel. They have dedicated staff that allows me to arrive and check-in whenever, rather than having a small window of time before the "host" goes to bed or what not.
- jkoudys 7y ago
  Yeah those cleaning fees are bullshit. I don't want to see the prices of only one item on a list shown on the map, I want to see how much it actually costs to stay there. tbf you'll see this on a lot of hotel bookings too. We just got back from a week in NYC, and most booking systems (either hotels or airbnbs) were a massive slog. Try to airbnb an okay place in the Bronx for $110/night? Click through and see an $80 cleaning fee. Try to book a hotel in Manhattan? Bam, $100 tourism tax. Really not loving all these systems that go out of there way to confuse me into paying more money.
  - Symbiote 7y ago
    In at least some cases the tourist tax is only for tourists. Business visitors don't need to pay the tax, if they show some evidence that it's a business trip. An example is Cologne's "Culture tax": https://www.stadt-koeln.de/politik-und-verwaltung/steuern-gebuehren/tax-promotion-and-advancement-culture-frequently-asked-questions https://www.stadt-koeln.de/politik-und-verwaltung/steuern-ge...
    - jkoudys 7y ago
      Interesting -- I'll look into that for NYC. I'm CTO at a startup based in Toronto, but we have a tiny space in Manhattan so it's pretty easy for me to schedule some business there and have my family tag along.
adwww 7y ago
I've personally used AirBnb when I've stayed somewhere on my own and just wanted a spare room to crash in, with the added bonus of some company, and also to rent an entire detached house in the French countryside with my family for 2 weeks. Both of these AirBnb offered something way better than a hotel. I do agree that that middle ground - a whole apartment in a mixed residential building - is problematic, and I'd feel awkward staying in that setting.
- terryf 7y ago
  You make a good point - the "rent out my couch" type of thing and "rent out a whole separate house" admittedly break my argument a little bit. However there are still the questions of things like insurance coverage and other safety related topics. Basically if anything goes wrong in a hotel, there is staff who is required to be trained to be able to deal with it. Again, the cost associated with dealing with the 0.05% corner cases is distributed to everyone in the case of a hotel room, but to the specific person to whom it happens in the airbnb case. To be fair, if you really want to rent a whole house, the hotel industry doesn't often provide good options ....
Joeri 7y ago
There are two ways to look at this. One way is to say that uberized businesses are all like this: they remove costs from the sticker price and externalize them. It's the ryanair model as applied to other things. Removing insurance and offloading the costs of not having insurance onto the users, removing proper benefits for staff and externalizing the costs from that onto society, removing quality of service items and requiring users to make up the difference (like doing your own housekeeping in an airbnb, or uber drivers having to provide their own vehicles). The other way of looking at it is these services providing a middle ground. People may not wish the "full option" service, and are prepared to pay less to get less. Someone who wants the full service can still get it, there are now just more options.

by terryf 7y ago

ubermonkey 7y ago

A very reasonable point; however, AirBnB & its ilk end up being the only viable option in some cases. There's a huge bicycling event in Texas every spring, and it overnights in a town that is, most of the time, very very quiet. The meager hotel inventory is sufficient 364 days of the year, but absurdly low for the weekend of the MS150. & so, homeshare sites make a killing that weekend.

SenHeng 7y ago
The exception should not make the rule. Your example is one of the few edge cases where AirBnB works. The OP is talking about an everyday situation where AirBnB has instead had a detrimental effect on residents as well as would-be residents.
- mensetmanusman 7y ago
  This is the type of NIMBYism that is contributing to the housing policy problems. Instead of using nuance and recognizing the good and bad, only the bad is focused on and the proposals are to throw it all out.
  - ppseafield 7y ago
    Generally NIMBYism involves push-back on policies that increase housing density to help more (and generally poorer) people live somewhere. AirBNB without regulation (and enforcement) doesn't help more people live in an area - in fact it removes long term residences from the market in favor of generating more revenue for existing property owners. Reducing the long term housing supply increases demand and prices, thus keeping poorer folks out. Personally I don't mind AirBNB if it's only people renting out rooms in their residences. For instance here in Portland the law requires this. But it's poorly enforced.
    - pacaro 7y ago
      NIMBYism isn't only about housing, it refers to any pushback on a change that is generally agreed as good/useful/necessary on the basis that "sure we need this thing, but not where I live". Currently we hear it a lot regarding housing density, but it's also a factor in locating sewage treatment plants, nuclear waste disposal sites, etc.
      - ppseafield 7y ago
        Indeed, that's a better overall definition. My comment was in the context of AirBnB and housing.
- peanutgal2600 7y ago
  In pretty much any small city in developing nations, AirBNB is the only viable option. Many of these cities have experienced rapid growth thanks to EU and Chinese loans, but the hotel infrastructure has not kept up. In one Balkan city I visit frequently, I can pay $150/night in a 40 year old Holiday Inn that was condemned a few years ago for structural reasons (then the decision was reversed), or I can pay $15 a night in an AirBNB some poor schlub making $200/month is renting out to make ends meet. I'm going to choose door number 2 every time. Any time I am given the choice to buy something, especially a higher-quality experience at a lower price, from a human being versus a corporation, the human gets my money. Just like I prefer Uber to taxis, I prefer AirBNB to hotels. Even Hostels now, if I go into Amsterdam I will pay $35-$50 per night. If there are two of us, the $50 per night AirBNB is our choice. These businesses flourish because the social contract is broken. Creating artificial scarcity will harm the community in the long run, preventing tourism and limiting the ability of home owners / tenants to make a couple of extra bucks on under-utilized resources. Whatever this social contract is, I've never signed it, and I don't really recognize anybody else telling me I must abide by this contract upon which I was given no opportunity to vote or discuss.
pintxo 7y ago
Also for an one-off event, one could organize private rooms via the event organizer. No AirBnB needed.
- JackFr 7y ago
  E.g. for Hall of Fame weekend in Cooperstown (a fairly tiny town), the Baseball Hall of Fame sets up house shares with residents for MLB personnel.
mysterydip 7y ago
Seems to me that this is a logistical issue the event planners should fix. Are there any other towns nearby that would make a better overnight spot now that the event has grown larger?

voidwtf 7y ago

I would argue that ‘people’ break the social contract. These people know where they are, what time it is, and mostly what’s expected of their surroundings. I think they just don’t care. I’m guessing it’s similar to anonymity on the Internet, where people behave differently because they don’t expect to have to face those they harm.

ianopolous 7y ago
There are no repeated interactions: https://ncase.me/trust https://ncase.me/trust
- dnh44 7y ago
  I just wanted to leave a comment saying that I thought this link is worth clicking. I suspect people who regularly “cheat” in business for example are acutely aware of the necessity of finding a constant source new interactions. I also suspect that the stereotype of people from small towns being more naive than people from cities is also related to this. It all seems kind of obvious to me as I write this post but I don’t think I’ve actually consciously directly thought about things on those terms until just now.
snarf21 7y ago
I would disagree slightly. They treat it like any other hotel. There are always some overtly noisy people at a hotel. There are always people who will leave crap in the breakfast areas because "they are paying" and it is someone else's job. The difference is that someone's apartment isn't employing the same people a hotel is. And like the thread mentions, they are breaking a social contract of the building even if they aren't breaking a legal rule.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
rhacker 7y ago
"I think they just don't care" Yep, if you ever lived in a vacation destination you know.

vain 7y ago

It isn't true that airbnb rooms cost less than a hotel, at least in Central London. The reason they can appear cheaper is that you can cram 8 people into a small flat or even a room. I was renting a room in a flat in Soho. The other floors slowly got converted to amateur hotels for airbnb/booking. Many a night, I'd see families stuck downstairs with luggage. They would then phone a capricious property manager who would tell them to walk about two miles to the key safe. Many a time, they didn't have a phone that worked in London, and I would lend them my phone. One angry customer checked in to the 5* boutique hotel next door after waiting for an hour. The hotel was about the same price. I wonder if he got his money back. I doubt it. I don't book airbnbs. Hospitality is not for greedy unregulated amateurs. Of course, there might be some great hosts, but I like consistency.

Symbiote 7y ago
You are much more generous than me. I avoided the tourists with luggage looking puzzled standing at the front door; if I saw some I'd use the rear door instead. When they rang my buzzer, I'd tell them AirBnB was banned, and leave the line open so they couldn't buzz anyone else for 2-3 minutes until it disconnected. I also reported the apartments to the building owner, and they were kicked out after a few months.

noxToken 7y ago

>This is one of the reasons I don't stay in airbnbs - the system breaks the social contract. But it doesn't. People are breaking the social contract by not respecting the area. If I invite friends from out of town over for the weekend, is that breaking the social contract? If I'm going away for 2 weeks, and I have friends house sit for the duration, is that breaking the social contract? Tourists and visitors existing in a space (unless it's too many) isn't inherently violating the social contract. Their selfish behavior is the issue. I understand what you mean. I have neighbors down the road who throw a massive family gathering once per year that I'm certain breaks noise, traffic and safety ordinances[0] due to the sound system still going at 10PM and parked cars littering both sides of the streets. That's not due to Airbnb or any other hospitality broker. If you have an issue with visitors, talk to them. It's possible that they don't even know they're being a nuisance. I have had cops called on me for a noise complaint. It would have been a better use of everyone's time to knock and let us know. [0]: As far as I know, no one reports the reunion/gathering. I like to think that since we're all very respectful of each other's property and space, breaking the rules for a special event once in a while is no big deal.

bluejekyll 7y ago
> It would have been a better use of everyone's time to knock and let us know. Sadly, too many people now are afraid of conflict, even small conflict, they prefer to call the police rather than deal with others directly. They don’t want to deal with it themselves. That anxiety I’m sure goes up with unknown Airbnbers, and so raises the likely good that people will probably call the police instead.
- rhacker 7y ago
  Sadly, too many people have become toxic. My first action is usually to talk to people, asking them to turn things down until I can't hear it. It works increasingly less over time. Instead I get people that turn the volume up. I am slowly moving towards calling the police first lately.
  - theflyinghorse 7y ago

ryanmarsh 7y ago

> I don't stay in airbnbs - the system breaks the social contract. I didn't know I was party to this contract, and I couldn't tell you what the terms are. I travel a lot for work and I stay almost exclusively in AirBnb because I like having my money and a nice home-like experience. I still don't understand how society would benefit from AirBnb not existing and us being where we started with the hotel cabal.

okmokmz 7y ago
>I still don't understand how society would benefit from AirBnb not existing and us being where we started with the hotel cabal. Many of the people on this site don't see or experience the downsides, as we are privileged enough to own our own properties or have our own space not impacted by airbnb. However, consider for example a family living in inexpensive housing with parents that work and children that are in school. There have been many cases of wealthy individuals purchasing/renting blocks of cheap apartments/condos and turning them into defacto hotels with no rules leading to partying, destruction of property, increased crime, and other issues. How would you feel if where you lived was suddenly overrun with short term tenants that are having a negative impact on your way of life, and not being able to afford to move? That is how society would benefit form AIrbnb not existing. It may not benefit engineers making 100k+, but it would positively impact many in lower socioeconomic classes https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/26/reader-center/airbnb-new-york-city.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/26/reader-center/airbnb-new-... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/sep/17/airbnb-nuisance-neighbours-tribunal-ruling https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/sep/17/airbnb-nu... https://www.huffpost.com/entry/airbnb-affordable-housing-gentrification-tourism-fairbnb_n_5c5949c3e4b00187b554828d https://www.huffpost.com/entry/airbnb-affordable-housing-gen...
- okmokmz 7y ago
  I find it interesting that this comment initially had 7 upvotes and is now down to 2. There is nothing factually wrong about what I wrote, I guess well off engineers are just upset at the thought of potentially losing their cheap accommodations and convenience despite it having a negative impact on many individuals lives

impendia 7y ago

Personally, I find the "social contract" to be too biased in favor of homeowners. They control municipal governments and hence zoning laws. If these homeowners decide that they don't want to see visitors in their neighborhoods, they can decide they don't have to. So, in effect, this "contract" was unilaterally imposed by one party to it. I noticed this particularly in Princeton, NJ. A cute, small, and overly expensive town. Anyway, I was visiting the university on business, and if you stay downtown it is easy to get everywhere without a car. Except... there are few hotels downtown, and no budget hotels. For those you have to stay near the highway (and hence rent a car). The "social contract" would require that I view my own presence as a nuisance, even though I was being quiet and going to bed early. I decided that I didn't have any qualms about renting via Airbnb/Craigslist.

rhacker 7y ago
So let's say I buy a quiet home in a peaceful neighborhood. I've risked my life savings on this home so I can get work done, meditate, relax and not hear barking dogs, children scream, etc.. So you're saying I don't have the right to want those things? That new people coming into that kind of environment should be allowed to, even though there is nearly literally anywhere else in the f-ing world they can go. I'm not saying you, in particular, are going to bother me, you sound quiet - but why should I give up on upholding the social contracts the neighborhood has established for decades for a rowdy party animals to blast through every weekend?
- impendia 7y ago
  I certainly believe you have the right to want those things. And moreover, there are noise ordinances and related laws, and I do believe those should be enforced. But, I also believe that new people coming into that kind of environment should be allowed to. People step on each other's toes, and it can be annoying. But I still don't believe that people have the right to keep other people out.
  - Symbiote 7y ago
    How do I get a noise ordinance enforced, when the noise is 2 minutes of people shouting and clattering luggage down the stairs at 4am on Monday, to get their cheap Ryanair flight home? My neighbours are much more careful at 4am, and each might only leave like this a couple of times a year. An apartment on AirBnB has this pretty much every week.

dylan604 7y ago

> However you have to pay a bit more. I've been looking into AirBnB for certain situations, and because people tell me they are cheaper than hotels. However, I have found that in a lot of cases, hotels end up being cheaper. The big gotcha is the prices shown are the fee for the room (or house or whatever), but then at the end they tack on exorbitant "cleaning" fees that I have found to be greater than the rental fee. They have taken to using big graphics promoting living wages as a way to justify the extensive cleaning fees. In the end, it is much less hassle for me to just book the hotel. They have dedicated staff that allows me to arrive and check-in whenever, rather than having a small window of time before the "host" goes to bed or what not.

jkoudys 7y ago
Yeah those cleaning fees are bullshit. I don't want to see the prices of only one item on a list shown on the map, I want to see how much it actually costs to stay there. tbf you'll see this on a lot of hotel bookings too. We just got back from a week in NYC, and most booking systems (either hotels or airbnbs) were a massive slog. Try to airbnb an okay place in the Bronx for $110/night? Click through and see an $80 cleaning fee. Try to book a hotel in Manhattan? Bam, $100 tourism tax. Really not loving all these systems that go out of there way to confuse me into paying more money.
- Symbiote 7y ago
  In at least some cases the tourist tax is only for tourists. Business visitors don't need to pay the tax, if they show some evidence that it's a business trip. An example is Cologne's "Culture tax": https://www.stadt-koeln.de/politik-und-verwaltung/steuern-gebuehren/tax-promotion-and-advancement-culture-frequently-asked-questions https://www.stadt-koeln.de/politik-und-verwaltung/steuern-ge...
  - jkoudys 7y ago
    Interesting -- I'll look into that for NYC. I'm CTO at a startup based in Toronto, but we have a tiny space in Manhattan so it's pretty easy for me to schedule some business there and have my family tag along.

adwww 7y ago

I've personally used AirBnb when I've stayed somewhere on my own and just wanted a spare room to crash in, with the added bonus of some company, and also to rent an entire detached house in the French countryside with my family for 2 weeks. Both of these AirBnb offered something way better than a hotel. I do agree that that middle ground - a whole apartment in a mixed residential building - is problematic, and I'd feel awkward staying in that setting.

terryf 7y ago
You make a good point - the "rent out my couch" type of thing and "rent out a whole separate house" admittedly break my argument a little bit. However there are still the questions of things like insurance coverage and other safety related topics. Basically if anything goes wrong in a hotel, there is staff who is required to be trained to be able to deal with it. Again, the cost associated with dealing with the 0.05% corner cases is distributed to everyone in the case of a hotel room, but to the specific person to whom it happens in the airbnb case. To be fair, if you really want to rent a whole house, the hotel industry doesn't often provide good options ....

Joeri 7y ago

There are two ways to look at this. One way is to say that uberized businesses are all like this: they remove costs from the sticker price and externalize them. It's the ryanair model as applied to other things. Removing insurance and offloading the costs of not having insurance onto the users, removing proper benefits for staff and externalizing the costs from that onto society, removing quality of service items and requiring users to make up the difference (like doing your own housekeeping in an airbnb, or uber drivers having to provide their own vehicles). The other way of looking at it is these services providing a middle ground. People may not wish the "full option" service, and are prepared to pay less to get less. Someone who wants the full service can still get it, there are now just more options.