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This is cool to see, and I think should be a virtuous cycle. As I understand it, maps is the kind of thing where more usage really helps make the map better, an
by burlesona 7y ago
This is cool to see, and I think should be a virtuous cycle. As I understand it, maps is the kind of thing where more usage really helps make the map better, and while DDG doesn’t bring the scale of being the iphone’s default map, it should be adding a non-trivial amount of traffic.
I’ve used Apple Maps as my primary map since it came out, and I’ve only gotten a wrong location one time in literally thousands of searches, and that was years ago. It wasn’t really ready when it launched, but it has gotten consistently better over time. The UX is great, in many cases the satellite imagery is more up-to-date compared to Google, and it doesn’t maul my battery to use. Not saying it’s clearly better than Google, because it isn’t, but for my usage it’s more than “good enough,” and I love to see Apple’s privacy respecting products compete effectively with big G.
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago> Not saying it’s clearly better than Google If privacy is worth something to you, it’s clearly better than Google. I, too, use Apple as my primary map. In many cases, Apple Maps is better Google. The ones in which it’s behind are more than made up for by Apple’s values.
- inferiorhuman 7y agoIf privacy is worth something to you, it’s clearly better than Google. Is it? Has everyone forgotten the Yelp tracking beacon? Good thing Apple relies on Yelp for business info and has pretty deep Yelp integration with the mobile app.
- jeromegv 7y agoApple have shown times and times again that they wouldn't let 3rd party do shady things into their own Maps app, that's the whole reason they got rid of Google Maps. That's a baseless accusation.
- inferiorhuman 7y agoApple have shown times and times again that they wouldn't let 3rd party do shady things into their own Maps app, that's the whole reason they got rid of Google Maps. That's a baseless accusation. You're right, if you click around in the Maps app (desktop or mobile) it takes you straight to the shady source (yelp.com). Edit: Also this: https://www.courthousenews.com/data-mining-privacy-suit-against-yelp-advances/ https://www.courthousenews.com/data-mining-privacy-suit-agai...
- duskwuff 7y ago> You're right, if you click around in the Maps app (desktop or mobile) it takes you straight to the shady source (yelp.com). Apple Maps doesn't use Yelp as a primary data source. It's used to add extra information (like reviews and photos) to existing points of interest, but the points of interest themselves are catalogued by Apple or their data providers. If you click around in Apple Maps a bit, you'll find that not all POIs have Yelp data. > Edit: Also this: [a lawsuit about social features in the Yelp app] I'm not sure how this is relevant.
- inferiorhuman 7y agoI'm not sure how this is relevant. Apple Maps steers you pretty hard towards the Yelp app if you want any business info.
- metildaa 7y agoApple has taken good stances on most privacy issues, but Apple Maps is poorly run. The main failure is not having something akin to a Google Scout, whereby iOS users could submit info about businesses and streets that lack data. Apple instead hires a ton of contractors in Austin (and now India) to manually trace roads and guess business hours based on anonymized GPS traces. Apple lacks the scale of Google's army of unpaid Google Scouts (though they could easily fix this) and is wasting time on minutia rather than task their staff/contractors with sourcing & importing higher quality data regularly. One example would be importing county shapefiles, Apple could easily vault ahead of Google Maps if they diffed their map against each of the thousands of county maps in the USA, and they would be the only one regularly doing this (OSM does this occasionally, but not often). They could also scrape business data from each state and use that to produce more accurate & detailed business listings than Google, among many other low hanging fruit.
- samschooler 7y agoIn DuckDuckGo's implementation at least it looks like they proxy all requests to Yelp so there is nothing Yelp gets from you in a non anon way.
- nijave 7y agoUnfortunately it's incredibly difficult to become fully anonymous. Yelp can infer who you are by things like your home address (a few searches to see how far away restaurants are, for instance) This Wikipedia article has a few examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_re-identification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_re-identification
- m-p-3 7y agoI wish DDG had the ability to also use OSM for data/map tiles and not just for direction. IMO it would help to make it grow if more people used it and contributed business data on it.
- nerdponx 7y agoIt would have been pretty interesting if Apple had integrated with OSM instead of building their own solution. Kind of a pie in the sky concept, but I still would have liked to see it.
- heed 7y agoApple Maps does utilize and contribute to OSM data to some degree: https://github.com/osmlab/appledata/ https://github.com/osmlab/appledata/
- dangus 7y agoYou don't ever have to install Yelp to use it within Apple Maps. The app does not come on the iPhone by default. By default it opens the Yelp website (which of course nags you to get their app and/or login, but that's not unique to Yelp). I suspect that all the news articles reporting on this issue are probably greatly misunderstanding how technology works. > And all night long, there was some startling behavior by a household name: Yelp. It was receiving a message that included my IP address — once every five minutes. [1] Literally any load balancer is going to know what IP address you're coming from. Having a website logging your IP address is not cause for alarm. A good mitigator for this probelm would be to disable background activity for Yelp or any other apps you feel do not need that sort of access. The journalist also makes no attempt to explain what steps they took to attempt to change their Yelp account preferences. They did not inform us whether or not they were logged in or opted in or out of any particular preferences. That's what makes the story so unhelpful. A more useful version of that article should be informing people to make a check on all their account preferences every time they sign up for a service. Usually, marketing and telemetry settings are on by default. I most definitely don't agree with this, but it's not unique to Yelp. Perhaps you're also referring to a lawsuit in progress regarding the way in which Yelp transfers contacts? [2] In this case, the arguments center around some rather nebulous contract law, in my layman's understanding of the case. Again, your OS already protects you - if you never grant an application access to your contacts, you never have to worry about the transmission of that data. It should be smartphone 101 that allowing an application data access will allow it forever, because that's how iOS has worked since day one. Again, we need more protections in the form of laws, not just conventions, and I don't agree with the idea that data can be sent around willy nilly, but this is the reality baked in to all mobile applications. Once you give third party code access to your data in a rather explicit fashion, it's not in your control what's done with it. So this still sounds bad, perhaps, but also, an iPhone with the default install and iCloud login is much more private than Google with a Google Account login. In Google's case, Google Maps has seen everything and can correlate it to your email content, business search activity, current location, and a host of other data especially if you use their search engine or YouTube. In Apple's case, Apple Maps just opened up yelp.com within Safari when you click on a business result (unless you explicitly install the Yelp app and give it permissions). [1] https://www.seattletimes.com/business/while-youre-sleeping-your-iphone-stays-busy-heres-what-is-happening-and-how-to-limit-app-tracking/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/while-youre-sleeping-y... [2] https://www.courthousenews.com/data-mining-privacy-suit-against-yelp-advances/ https://www.courthousenews.com/data-mining-privacy-suit-agai...
- whycombagator 7y agoYelp in the US. In the UK it's TripAdvisor. And I imagine it could be others elsewhere too
- zshbleaker 7y agoIt is. Apple Maps uses various POI info providers including Yelp, Foursquare, TripAdvisor and even more in global. Yelp has to track user data as their business model required, but nor Apple. The integration of Yelp app is made by Yelp, through the open system API by iOS, which is definitely not exclusive to Yelp.
- zaptheimpaler 7y agoNice! Its awesome to see Apple use their market power to help their customers rather than exploit them. It doesn't happen often.
- Mindwipe 7y agoLol, using their market power to help customers such as using their signing of the OS keys to force all default mapping applications to a proprietary location service that doesn't know where things are because of their own desire for power and control.
- gambiting 7y agoInteresting. Here in UK Apple maps seem to be a barren wasteland, at least up here in the north of England. Anything outside of major cities is exactly how my first Garmin satnav looked circa 2003 - lines going through absolute nothingness. And wow, don't even get me started about voice navigation - it constantly picks a wrong address, like 90% of the time. Google maps is pretty bad too(absolutely zero clue about one way streets or no left/right turns) but at least most POIs are actually there.
- ska 7y agoIt's really location dependent.
- dmitriid 7y agoIt’s the same everywhere outside California and the US in general.
- hug 7y agoIt is not. Apple Maps in Melbourne, Australia is fantastic. I find their public transport directions better, and their driving directions on-par.
- tombrossman 7y agoI was in Scotland last month, using Apple maps with a rental car, and it was not reliable. I'd look up an address and when near the destination I would get instructions like "park the car here and continue on foot" to waypoints out in the wilderness, for the Helensburgh area. That's not a huge city but it displays correctly in Apple Maps and seems like it should work until you actually try it. I reverted to the HERE maps app for navigation which worked perfectly, but does not appear to be compatible with CarPlay yet, so I had to use a mount for the phone.
- nijave 7y agoI'll believe it when they're both independently audited and found to be measurably better. Apple is incredibly secretive so although they might not end up in headlines, there's no guarantee they're any better than Google.
- kortilla 7y agoTheir business model doesn’t depend on violating your privacy. Google’s does, it’s that simple.
- icxa 7y agoTheir business model is only revealed to us to the extent of what we can publicly observe, but otherwise unknown to both me and you. Like parent said, Apple is very secretive. There is nothing stopping them from having their hardware business and making money from your data.
- ariwilson 7y agoAll corporations' business models relies on maximizing profit however they can and therefore will violate your privacy. It's that simple. Google = Apple. (Hint: your pithy statement is equally meaning free)
- karthikb 7y agoHaving tried the switch recently, Apple maps is still way too incorrect for anything more than general bearing finding in many places. Even addresses in Emeryville, CA - across the street from Pixar headquarters - were off by about a half mile! And in that case, something felt off and I’m glad I checked Google Maps before walking.
- lhuser123 7y agoYeah, I use Apple maps a lot, but sometimes have to use google because it is still more accurate.
- isoskeles 7y agoPrivacy is worth a lot to me, but Apple Maps does not have bicycle directions. So no, it is not clearly better than Google. I do use it for driving and walking directions though.
- piyush_soni 7y agoThe only 'values' companies have is to make money. I am surprised people actually believe all those "Mission, vision, values and objectives" statements of big corporations.
- 2muchcoffeeman 7y agoI believe in Apple taking their privacy concerns seriously where it makes them more money.
- janbporterb 7y agoI agree with this, but do not think it contradicts the parent. Apple has reasonably set themselves in a position where if they were caught violating privacy in any of the ways that [ad company] is incentivized to do, they would lose a ton of money and suffer monstrous brand damage. So I think you are both right.
- rahoulb 7y agoAs we're talking about maps here ... the only goal I have is to get to Point B. But I can choose to drive myself or take a taxi because I'm in a hurry, cycle because I want to get fit, walk along a busy road or walk through the forest because I want to relax. Likewise there are many many ways to make money - and when you have other companies who do similar things to you, which route you choose makes you appeal to one sector of the market over another. Differentiation is where vision and values become important (although of course you need to actually turn that into action to be meaningful).
- habnds 7y agoHonest question, why do you say that about privacy? My basic assumption is that all of these mega companies are the same and terrible about privacy. Surprised to hear otherwise.
- rahoulb 7y agoApple have made it a point of differentiation against Google and Facebook in particular. They say that they try to do as much processing on device as possible and when data (for stuff like Maps) is submitted centrally, they anonymise the data collection - so they can learn usage information without knowing who it's from. We don't know exactly how effective this is, as they are a secretive company, and this doesn't mean that bugs and breaches don't happen. But they make the point that, as their revenue comes from products and services, not targeted advertising, they don't need that data collection in order to grow the business.
- habnds 7y agoInteresting, I wasn't (consciously) aware of that advertising... I think personally, I don't find it believable that one of the world's largest public companies would have the discipline to forgo a revenue stream as big as advertising over the long term. If they have the data they'll eventually use it IMHO. It's interesting to think of privacy concerns as split between concerns about sharing data with a "counterparty" company, and concerns about sharing data with a third party like an advertiser. I think I'm at least as concerned about giving data to a counter party as I am to giving it to a third party. I never really thought about privacy conerns as beeing the concern that one's data could leave a BIGTECH company. Always thought about it as allowing one of those companies access in the first place.
- rahoulb 7y agoWell, Apple say that they don't actually have the data in the first place. For example, with maps, they chop your travel into pieces with no common identifiers. So that way, they get traffic information and can understand which routes are busy or frequently used. But, because there's no identifiers involved and it's broken into pieces before it reaches them, even if they wanted to, they can't tie that data back to you or recreate your actual journey on a particular day. Which in turn means they can't build a picture of where you, as an individual, go. That's a rough paraphrase of what Apple have said, anyway. As far as revenue streams go, they make their money from hardware and increasingly subscription services. Differentiation is important - and because of their business model, they can talk about privacy in a way that their competition cannot.
- wkearney99 7y agoI'd argue "less worse" not "better". You're a fool if you think management at Apple is someone any less lacking in virtues than google.
- wkearney99 7y agosomehow any less, not someone
- caiob 7y agoApple Maps works better than Google Maps in Montreal.
- xenospn 7y agoSame as you - been using it for years. In Southern California, its just as good as Google Maps, and the updated version is miles ahead when it comes to actual map details. Google Maps looks spartan compared to the Apple version these days.
- ibrault 7y agoAlso in SoCal and I've noticed Google Maps has really regressed, I've gotten a ton of "faster route available" prompts that lead to significantly slower routes when on the 405 and 10.
- ilikehurdles 7y agoI was once stuck in a "Faster route available" infinite loop in GMaps near some small town outside of Houston. At an intersection, my original route was to continue straight, but the "faster route" prompt redirected me to turn right. After turning right, a "faster route" prompt redirected me to make a u-turn. After returning to the intersection, it again suggested the direction I had just come from.
- zrobotics 7y agoOn my last cross-country road trip (~1 month ago) Google maps would regularly suggest "faster routes" that were just "turn left off the state highway onto a gravel road, after 1 mile turn right onto a different gravel road, drive 3 miles parallel to the state highway and then turn right again to rejoin the highway". I was seeing these suggestions every ~20-30 miles. It was annoying enough to finally prompt me to fully adopt OSM. Is anyone aware of a setting/workaround to use OSM in DDG instead of apple maps? I would rather provide my free labor to an open project, and I'm most likely to submit corrections when I notice them from a search.
- jxdxbx 7y agoI primarily use Apple Maps and its directions and the accuracy of roads have always been great for me. But sometimes I can't find a POI and searching for POIs can be significantly worse than Google Maps.
- burlesona 7y agoThis is a good point. If I know an address, Apple Maps will find it accurately. If I just know a place name it doesn’t always pick the right one. Google seems better at knowing which place name I mean.
- dybber 7y agoApple Maps doesn’t do bike routes which is reason enough not to use it. Google Maps does a very nice job for bikes. If I should wish something of Google Maps it would be “I bring my bike on the train” routes, which is a very common and nice way to get around here in Denmark at least.
- sethhochberg 7y agoI'm not aware of any major mapping platform which does multimodal journeys very well yet, whoever figures it out first will probably see me switch to their app immediately. Bonus points if they build in cost optimization, ie, "take the train 80% of the way there and then Uber for the last leg, optionally saving you 20 mins for an extra $8, or bring a bike to save 10 mins for no extra cost". I'm reading that Citymapper might do this in London, but I've not seen it in their NYC version unless I'm just being dense?
- svachalek 7y agoYeah, I'd really like something that can solve for "I want to drive to a train station, take a train, and then whatever form of transit can take me the last mile". It's a not-uncommon case for me and it seems both Apple and Google could both basically solve it if only the UI had a way to ask.
- penagwin 7y agoThey would have to have live price data across multiple vendors -say uber, lyft, every train station, every bus station, city taxes, if you can bring a bike or not, etc. Getting all that data for a single city would be impressive, let alone around the world. Not that Google couldn't do it of course.
- squeaky-clean 7y agoYou have to go into your settings and enable CityMapper Labs, as the multimode is still in beta. It works alright. Sometimes it works really well, but I just tested it out now for a short trip and it suggests going too many stops out of my way to get a citibike. Not sure why, as there are bikes available at closer stations. I also don't think it supports the idea of "I have a bike". It's mostly transferring from public transport to a bike share and vice versa. > Bonus points if they build in cost optimization, ie, "take the train 80% of the way there and then Uber for the last leg, It does do this (or at least is doing it in my current test). If I ask for directions from home to LGA, one of the Labs options is to take the G to the 7 to Junction Blvd and then take an Uber for $10-14. An UberX from my home to LGA right now costs $24.60
- Xylakant 7y ago> Not saying it’s clearly better than Google, because it isn’t, but for my usage it’s more than “good enough” I’ve just started testing Apple Maps as Google Maps replacement, and the quality seems to be highly dependent on the location. Cities, densely populated areas seem fine, but I’m currently traveling somewhat rural polish areas and apple maps seems to have no distinction between solid country roads and unpaved path. If it shows up on a map, you can travel it seems to be its credo.
- Spooky23 7y agoThe Google mapping properties are definitely on the decline. My theory is that they are less critical to the advertising business. For navigation, Waze can't find a route 1/5 times for a longer trip, and Google Maps gets weirder and more hostile to use every few months. For me, they have tweaked their routing engine to be more "creative" and direct you in weird ways. Big G is too fat and happy and they need a challenge. Apple Maps is fine now from an accuracy POV. They are more conservative about routing and Apple gives the app privileged treatment on iOS that improves the UX while driving. Now that Apple seems to be embracing letting services move beyond their platform, I think we'll see them give Google a run for their money.
- nine_k 7y agoDirecting drivers "weird ways" may be a strategy to lower congestion. If all drivers take the same optimal route, and the route exceeds its capacity and clogs, everyone loses.
- Spooky23 7y agoThe last trip I encountered this was on a Saturday night around 11pm north of Syracuse, NY. Drove about 20 minutes in empty, industrial areas to get to a restaurant. It was one expressway exit from our hotel, 5 minutes tops. I think that the app did that to avoid a u-turn or a left turn.
- CamperBob2 7y agoWhich is fine, but avoiding left turns and U-turns needs to be available as a user preference, and it (inexplicably) isn't.
- Spooky23 7y agoAgreed, that’s why I find it a user hostile app. Amazing mapping engine, not so amazing UI.
- dmitriid 7y ago
- bin0 7y agoHere's the issue with this: the live-traffic component of google maps, waze, etc. is very much a network effect. You get a lot of traffic info by measuring the speeds and stalls of your users. This creates the classic chicken-and-egg problem: need users to get data; need data to get users.
- gog 7y agoApple Maps maybe works in the US, but in Europe, at least in my country, it's not even close to Google Maps.
- drawnwren 7y agoThe gap only grows in the less developed parts of the world. Apple Maps is completely worthless in Indonesia/Thailand.