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It's a bloody goddamned nightmare. For example, a brief review of my devices: >Phone A. Type-C port limited to USB 2 data speeds but supports HDMI out via Dis

It's a bloody goddamned nightmare. For example, a brief review of my devices: >Phone A. Type-C port limited to USB 2 data speeds but supports HDMI out via DisplayLink. >Phone B. Type-C port that supports USB 3.1 speeds but doesn't do video out. >Tablet A. Type-C port that supports USB 3 speeds but only charges through a MicroUSB port. >Tablet B. Type-C port that supports USB 3 speeds and charging, but only charges at 0.8 amps through the type-C port and relies on a pogo-pin dock for actual 15-watt charging. That's not even mentioning all the devices that advertise one thing and then break the standard in a hundred different ways like the Switch.

derefr 7y ago
I don't see your point. Devices are free to support or not support whatever capabilities they want. Having a specific port is no guarantee that the device will use this or that capability offered over that port; mostly it's a guarantee it'll use at least one capability offered by that port. The problem with USB-C is that many of the cables don't do everything. Nobody else is complaining that the devices don't do everything. Devices have never done everything possible under the communications standards they support. Would you expect a monitor that supports HDMI2.0, to be a 4K monitor, just because HDMI2.0 supports 4K monitors? I would think not.
- msbarnett 7y ago
  > Nobody else is complaining that the devices don't do everything. Tons of regular consumers think that USB-C is a protocol and frequently complain that things they think should work together don’t, because they’re actually radically different ports electrically that happen to be shaped the same. Gaming forums are rife with elaborate conspiracy theories behind why Nintendo won’t “just” release an eGPU Dock for the Switch, which it “obviously” “must” support because it’s USB-C and eGPUs have “supported” USB-C for years. And now, Nintendo has announced a Switch Lite with no TV out (presumably they removed the DisplayPort crossbar IC that does alternate mode muxing with the USB 3.0 signal, to reduce manufacturing costs). But Joe Average Consumer is up in arms, this “must be them sabotaging it in software”, because “video out is a required part of the USB-C standard, this wouldn’t even save them any money, USB-C always physically supports video out”. The average consumer in no way understands that USB-C is just a connector shape that a bunch of different incompatible things use. They think that, like almost all previous ports, the shape indicates a common protocol that is shared by things that have that shape. And they are absolutely complaining about a lack of what they perceive should be compatibility.
  - Dylan16807 7y ago
    > presumably the removed the DisplayPort crossbar IC that does alternate mode muxing with the USB 3.0 signal, to reduce manufacturing costs It probably saves some amount of money, but I'd bet that deliberately leaving it out to encourage sales of the full switch is a bigger factor. Otherwise I agree with you about protocol confusion. (Would you even need a mux? I don't think the switch uses USB 3 for anything.)
    - msbarnett 7y ago
      Yeah, you need the mux because you can run a wired Ethernet adapter in over USB at the same time it’s outputing a DisplayPort signal on the port.
      - Dylan16807 7y ago
        That uses the USB 2.0 wires, as far as I can research. And if it was using a mux to pick signals they wouldn't run at the same time anyway.
        msbarnett 7y ago
        Well, I can tell you that it has a mux, anyways — it’s a Pericom PI3USB30532 per iFixit’s teardown. Exactly what for I don’t know.
        Dylan16807 7y ago
        That's fair. Though presumably the switch lite doesn't need to support USB at all.
- wongarsu 7y ago
  If a device has an HDMI port I know I can use that to connect a display. I don't know details like the supported resolutions, but at least I know that's a supported use case. If I notice that a device has a USB-C port all I really learned is that it has a USB-C port. Who knows what it does.
  - derefr 7y ago
    But that's most port standards that have ever existed. What can a device do with a parallel port? A serial port? A SCSI port? A Firewire port? Who knows? It's up to the device. It can certainly send signals over that port, of some kind. But what kind of signals? Up to the device. The host can hopefully probe a device-class out of the client and stand up an appropriate driver to talk to it. A CD player has a 3.5mm audio jack. Pop quiz: does it support SPDIF? In fact, is it line-level or phono-level output? (An important question to avoid blowing out your equipment!) Answer, in both cases: who knows? You find a random CAT-6 drop in the wall. Does it contain Ethernet? Does it contain Power-over-Ethernet? Does it contain both? No way to know without asking someone or plugging it in. Or, for a slightly more interesting example of a "port": what can a random peripheral board do with a motherboard's PCI-e (or PCI, or ISA, or any historical equivalent) port? Well, whatever it likes. Does anyone expect every PCI card to be simultaneously a network card, graphics card, sound card, RAID card, etc., just because those are all things PCI can carry? Of course not. PCI-e is a single port, and a single protocol (sort of), but that doesn't mean it's a single set of exposed capabilities.
    - beefalo 7y ago
      I think one of the things that makes USB-C particularly problematic here is that "plug it in and find out" can be harmful to devices since devices can draw 100W of power through the port.
      - cesarb 7y ago
        > since devices can draw 100W of power through the port Devices can only draw 100W of power, which is 5A at 20V, after negotiation; before negotiation (or if negotiation fails), only 5V is available, like in the older USB connector types.
- PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  I'd be complaining like fuck if I had a mobile device with a USB-C port that can't be used for charging. That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard all day.
- JohnFen 7y ago
  > Having a specific port is no guarantee that the device will use this or that capability offered over that port And that's the serious underlying design flaw.
- dTal 7y ago
  > Devices have never done everything possible under the communications standards they support. Yes they do - that's the point of a communications standard. Any device with a USB 3.0 port will work with any USB peripheral ever, given suitable drivers. Your HDMI example makes no sense because it's backwards; of course I don't expect an HDMI2.0 monitor to be 4K, any more than I expect a flash drive to act as a keyboard - but I absolutely expect a port that supports flash drives to support keyboards, and I expect a computer with an HDMI2.0 port to support 4K monitors. The departure with USB-C is that it isn't a communications standard. Unlike any previous USB port, having the port is not a guarantee that it will work with any peripheral with that plug. The situation with the cables merely reflects this fundamental usability flaw - even if all cables did everything, assessing compatibility would still be confusing.
runn1ng 7y ago
Nintendo mever advertises Switch as USB-C in any of their marketing though
- jazzyjackson 7y ago
  I think the overall theme of this thread is that it used to be, if the cable fit in the hole it will probably work. USB-C is the first time most people have run into their cable's shape not corresponding to the cable's capability (folks trying to do 4k video with shitty HDMI cables excepted)
- kalleboo 7y ago
  They do in their Japanese marketing https://www.nintendo.co.jp/hardware/switch/feature/img/08-local-specs/body-switch01-back.jpg https://www.nintendo.co.jp/hardware/switch/feature/img/08-lo...
isatty 7y ago
Okay so you've a bunch of different devices that have different capabilities - can you also mention the different cables you had to get (I'm just curious). In my case I have a switch, 2 macbook pros (2018, 2019) and an iPad pro (11.5") and I've not had much of a hard time finding cables, at least for power.
- Causality1 7y ago
  The only cable issue I've run into is that there are cheap MicroUSB to type-C adapters that are sold without a necessary 56Kohm resistor, which limits its functionality. It won't charge at high speed and it also prevents type-C devices from using OTG mode to talk to accessories like flash drives, mice, and cameras. There are also a few quirky combinations, like the fact a OnePlus Dash charger will absolutely refuse to provide power to a Switch while most phone chargers will power the handheld portion just fine if not the dock. A little too well in fact, as I had a RAVPower "40W 3A" car charger melt while using it to power a running Switch in the car.

derefr 7y ago

I don't see your point. Devices are free to support or not support whatever capabilities they want. Having a specific port is no guarantee that the device will use this or that capability offered over that port; mostly it's a guarantee it'll use at least one capability offered by that port. The problem with USB-C is that many of the cables don't do everything. Nobody else is complaining that the devices don't do everything. Devices have never done everything possible under the communications standards they support. Would you expect a monitor that supports HDMI2.0, to be a 4K monitor, just because HDMI2.0 supports 4K monitors? I would think not.

msbarnett 7y ago
> Nobody else is complaining that the devices don't do everything. Tons of regular consumers think that USB-C is a protocol and frequently complain that things they think should work together don’t, because they’re actually radically different ports electrically that happen to be shaped the same. Gaming forums are rife with elaborate conspiracy theories behind why Nintendo won’t “just” release an eGPU Dock for the Switch, which it “obviously” “must” support because it’s USB-C and eGPUs have “supported” USB-C for years. And now, Nintendo has announced a Switch Lite with no TV out (presumably they removed the DisplayPort crossbar IC that does alternate mode muxing with the USB 3.0 signal, to reduce manufacturing costs). But Joe Average Consumer is up in arms, this “must be them sabotaging it in software”, because “video out is a required part of the USB-C standard, this wouldn’t even save them any money, USB-C always physically supports video out”. The average consumer in no way understands that USB-C is just a connector shape that a bunch of different incompatible things use. They think that, like almost all previous ports, the shape indicates a common protocol that is shared by things that have that shape. And they are absolutely complaining about a lack of what they perceive should be compatibility.
- Dylan16807 7y ago
  > presumably the removed the DisplayPort crossbar IC that does alternate mode muxing with the USB 3.0 signal, to reduce manufacturing costs It probably saves some amount of money, but I'd bet that deliberately leaving it out to encourage sales of the full switch is a bigger factor. Otherwise I agree with you about protocol confusion. (Would you even need a mux? I don't think the switch uses USB 3 for anything.)
  - msbarnett 7y ago
    Yeah, you need the mux because you can run a wired Ethernet adapter in over USB at the same time it’s outputing a DisplayPort signal on the port.
    - Dylan16807 7y ago
      That uses the USB 2.0 wires, as far as I can research. And if it was using a mux to pick signals they wouldn't run at the same time anyway.
      - msbarnett 7y ago
        Well, I can tell you that it has a mux, anyways — it’s a Pericom PI3USB30532 per iFixit’s teardown. Exactly what for I don’t know.
        Dylan16807 7y ago
        That's fair. Though presumably the switch lite doesn't need to support USB at all.
wongarsu 7y ago
If a device has an HDMI port I know I can use that to connect a display. I don't know details like the supported resolutions, but at least I know that's a supported use case. If I notice that a device has a USB-C port all I really learned is that it has a USB-C port. Who knows what it does.
- derefr 7y ago
  But that's most port standards that have ever existed. What can a device do with a parallel port? A serial port? A SCSI port? A Firewire port? Who knows? It's up to the device. It can certainly send signals over that port, of some kind. But what kind of signals? Up to the device. The host can hopefully probe a device-class out of the client and stand up an appropriate driver to talk to it. A CD player has a 3.5mm audio jack. Pop quiz: does it support SPDIF? In fact, is it line-level or phono-level output? (An important question to avoid blowing out your equipment!) Answer, in both cases: who knows? You find a random CAT-6 drop in the wall. Does it contain Ethernet? Does it contain Power-over-Ethernet? Does it contain both? No way to know without asking someone or plugging it in. Or, for a slightly more interesting example of a "port": what can a random peripheral board do with a motherboard's PCI-e (or PCI, or ISA, or any historical equivalent) port? Well, whatever it likes. Does anyone expect every PCI card to be simultaneously a network card, graphics card, sound card, RAID card, etc., just because those are all things PCI can carry? Of course not. PCI-e is a single port, and a single protocol (sort of), but that doesn't mean it's a single set of exposed capabilities.
  - beefalo 7y ago
    I think one of the things that makes USB-C particularly problematic here is that "plug it in and find out" can be harmful to devices since devices can draw 100W of power through the port.
    - cesarb 7y ago
      > since devices can draw 100W of power through the port Devices can only draw 100W of power, which is 5A at 20V, after negotiation; before negotiation (or if negotiation fails), only 5V is available, like in the older USB connector types.
PhasmaFelis 7y ago
I'd be complaining like fuck if I had a mobile device with a USB-C port that can't be used for charging. That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard all day.
JohnFen 7y ago
> Having a specific port is no guarantee that the device will use this or that capability offered over that port And that's the serious underlying design flaw.
dTal 7y ago
> Devices have never done everything possible under the communications standards they support. Yes they do - that's the point of a communications standard. Any device with a USB 3.0 port will work with any USB peripheral ever, given suitable drivers. Your HDMI example makes no sense because it's backwards; of course I don't expect an HDMI2.0 monitor to be 4K, any more than I expect a flash drive to act as a keyboard - but I absolutely expect a port that supports flash drives to support keyboards, and I expect a computer with an HDMI2.0 port to support 4K monitors. The departure with USB-C is that it isn't a communications standard. Unlike any previous USB port, having the port is not a guarantee that it will work with any peripheral with that plug. The situation with the cables merely reflects this fundamental usability flaw - even if all cables did everything, assessing compatibility would still be confusing.

runn1ng 7y ago

Nintendo mever advertises Switch as USB-C in any of their marketing though

jazzyjackson 7y ago
I think the overall theme of this thread is that it used to be, if the cable fit in the hole it will probably work. USB-C is the first time most people have run into their cable's shape not corresponding to the cable's capability (folks trying to do 4k video with shitty HDMI cables excepted)
kalleboo 7y ago
They do in their Japanese marketing https://www.nintendo.co.jp/hardware/switch/feature/img/08-local-specs/body-switch01-back.jpg https://www.nintendo.co.jp/hardware/switch/feature/img/08-lo...

isatty 7y ago

Okay so you've a bunch of different devices that have different capabilities - can you also mention the different cables you had to get (I'm just curious). In my case I have a switch, 2 macbook pros (2018, 2019) and an iPad pro (11.5") and I've not had much of a hard time finding cables, at least for power.

Causality1 7y ago
The only cable issue I've run into is that there are cheap MicroUSB to type-C adapters that are sold without a necessary 56Kohm resistor, which limits its functionality. It won't charge at high speed and it also prevents type-C devices from using OTG mode to talk to accessories like flash drives, mice, and cameras. There are also a few quirky combinations, like the fact a OnePlus Dash charger will absolutely refuse to provide power to a Switch while most phone chargers will power the handheld portion just fine if not the dock. A little too well in fact, as I had a RAVPower "40W 3A" car charger melt while using it to power a running Switch in the car.