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This only seems to be counting USB-C to USB-C USB 3 cables The actual situation is much worse when you add in passive and active C-to-C Thunderbolt, MHL, DP, a

This only seems to be counting USB-C to USB-C USB 3 cables The actual situation is much worse when you add in passive and active C-to-C Thunderbolt, MHL, DP, and HDMI cables, some but not all combinations of which may or may not optionally support some but not all combinations of other signals as well — eg) a passive TB3 C-to-C cable will support DP and USB3 (but not MHL or HDMI), but an active TB3 C-to-C cable will be guaranteed to support only TB3, but may optionally support DP. Visually making a complex matrix of incompatible things look identical has resulted in an absolutely hopeless situation for consumers, who trained by decades of “connector shape == bus” think that USB-C is a monolithic bus that supports all of these different use cases and then don’t understand why they can’t “just”, say, plug their USB-C Nintendo Switch (wired for USB 3.0 w/ a DP alt. mode signal) into a USB-C eGPU (wired for TB3) using whatever “USB-C cable” they have lying around, which could potentially support none of the incompatible protocols either port can handle anyway.

Causality1 7y ago
It's a bloody goddamned nightmare. For example, a brief review of my devices: >Phone A. Type-C port limited to USB 2 data speeds but supports HDMI out via DisplayLink. >Phone B. Type-C port that supports USB 3.1 speeds but doesn't do video out. >Tablet A. Type-C port that supports USB 3 speeds but only charges through a MicroUSB port. >Tablet B. Type-C port that supports USB 3 speeds and charging, but only charges at 0.8 amps through the type-C port and relies on a pogo-pin dock for actual 15-watt charging. That's not even mentioning all the devices that advertise one thing and then break the standard in a hundred different ways like the Switch.
- derefr 7y ago
  I don't see your point. Devices are free to support or not support whatever capabilities they want. Having a specific port is no guarantee that the device will use this or that capability offered over that port; mostly it's a guarantee it'll use at least one capability offered by that port. The problem with USB-C is that many of the cables don't do everything. Nobody else is complaining that the devices don't do everything. Devices have never done everything possible under the communications standards they support. Would you expect a monitor that supports HDMI2.0, to be a 4K monitor, just because HDMI2.0 supports 4K monitors? I would think not.
  - msbarnett 7y ago
    > Nobody else is complaining that the devices don't do everything. Tons of regular consumers think that USB-C is a protocol and frequently complain that things they think should work together don’t, because they’re actually radically different ports electrically that happen to be shaped the same. Gaming forums are rife with elaborate conspiracy theories behind why Nintendo won’t “just” release an eGPU Dock for the Switch, which it “obviously” “must” support because it’s USB-C and eGPUs have “supported” USB-C for years. And now, Nintendo has announced a Switch Lite with no TV out (presumably they removed the DisplayPort crossbar IC that does alternate mode muxing with the USB 3.0 signal, to reduce manufacturing costs). But Joe Average Consumer is up in arms, this “must be them sabotaging it in software”, because “video out is a required part of the USB-C standard, this wouldn’t even save them any money, USB-C always physically supports video out”. The average consumer in no way understands that USB-C is just a connector shape that a bunch of different incompatible things use. They think that, like almost all previous ports, the shape indicates a common protocol that is shared by things that have that shape. And they are absolutely complaining about a lack of what they perceive should be compatibility.
    - Dylan16807 7y ago
      > presumably the removed the DisplayPort crossbar IC that does alternate mode muxing with the USB 3.0 signal, to reduce manufacturing costs It probably saves some amount of money, but I'd bet that deliberately leaving it out to encourage sales of the full switch is a bigger factor. Otherwise I agree with you about protocol confusion. (Would you even need a mux? I don't think the switch uses USB 3 for anything.)
      - msbarnett 7y ago
        Yeah, you need the mux because you can run a wired Ethernet adapter in over USB at the same time it’s outputing a DisplayPort signal on the port.
        Dylan16807 7y ago
- runn1ng 7y ago
  Nintendo mever advertises Switch as USB-C in any of their marketing though
  - jazzyjackson 7y ago
    I think the overall theme of this thread is that it used to be, if the cable fit in the hole it will probably work. USB-C is the first time most people have run into their cable's shape not corresponding to the cable's capability (folks trying to do 4k video with shitty HDMI cables excepted)
  - kalleboo 7y ago
    They do in their Japanese marketing https://www.nintendo.co.jp/hardware/switch/feature/img/08-local-specs/body-switch01-back.jpg https://www.nintendo.co.jp/hardware/switch/feature/img/08-lo...
- isatty 7y ago
  Okay so you've a bunch of different devices that have different capabilities - can you also mention the different cables you had to get (I'm just curious). In my case I have a switch, 2 macbook pros (2018, 2019) and an iPad pro (11.5") and I've not had much of a hard time finding cables, at least for power.
  - Causality1 7y ago
    The only cable issue I've run into is that there are cheap MicroUSB to type-C adapters that are sold without a necessary 56Kohm resistor, which limits its functionality. It won't charge at high speed and it also prevents type-C devices from using OTG mode to talk to accessories like flash drives, mice, and cameras. There are also a few quirky combinations, like the fact a OnePlus Dash charger will absolutely refuse to provide power to a Switch while most phone chargers will power the handheld portion just fine if not the dock. A little too well in fact, as I had a RAVPower "40W 3A" car charger melt while using it to power a running Switch in the car.
peterburkimsher 7y ago
The Apple Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 adaptor supports nothing except Target Disk Mode. I tried using it to connect a USB-C SSD to my MacBook Pro 2014, using a Thundebolt 2 M-M wire, and the adaptor plugged into the SSD enclosure. It didn't work, though thankfully it didn't fry anything either. The Thunderbolt adaptor also doesn't work with MiniDP-VGA or MiniDP-HDMI adaptors. So I would need to buy a whole new set of video adaptors if I upgrade my laptop. Needless to say, I'm not in a hurry to do so. I like adaptors, and I have a large collection in my bag already for video out/in, phone charging, FireWire/Thunderbolt disk mode, and more. But I haven't even started collecting USB-C adaptors because it would only be for friends ("Sorry for the technical difficulties with the projector...") and I don't know which ones will work.
- kalleboo 7y ago
  I use the TB3-TB2 adaptor with their old TB2 Gigabit Ethernet adaptor all the time, so that works at least.
- msbarnett 7y ago
  > The Apple Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 adaptor supports nothing except Target Disk Mode. This isn’t correct. I use it daily to connect a MacBook Pro with Thunderbolt 2 ports to a RAID enclosure/dock with Thunderbolt 3 ports via a TB2 cable terminated with this adapter. An external monitor is attached to the enclosure, as well as several USB devices. The display port alternate mode signal and USB hub functionality all works simultaneously with the RAID. Of course, half the problem with USB-C is that the failures are incredibly opaque, so it’s hard to say why the adapter failed in your case. Maybe you plugged it into a USB 3 USB-C port instead of a TB3 USB-C port? My enclosure has separate USB-C ports for each protocol, and I need to be careful to select the right one.

Causality1 7y ago

It's a bloody goddamned nightmare. For example, a brief review of my devices: >Phone A. Type-C port limited to USB 2 data speeds but supports HDMI out via DisplayLink. >Phone B. Type-C port that supports USB 3.1 speeds but doesn't do video out. >Tablet A. Type-C port that supports USB 3 speeds but only charges through a MicroUSB port. >Tablet B. Type-C port that supports USB 3 speeds and charging, but only charges at 0.8 amps through the type-C port and relies on a pogo-pin dock for actual 15-watt charging. That's not even mentioning all the devices that advertise one thing and then break the standard in a hundred different ways like the Switch.

derefr 7y ago
I don't see your point. Devices are free to support or not support whatever capabilities they want. Having a specific port is no guarantee that the device will use this or that capability offered over that port; mostly it's a guarantee it'll use at least one capability offered by that port. The problem with USB-C is that many of the cables don't do everything. Nobody else is complaining that the devices don't do everything. Devices have never done everything possible under the communications standards they support. Would you expect a monitor that supports HDMI2.0, to be a 4K monitor, just because HDMI2.0 supports 4K monitors? I would think not.
- msbarnett 7y ago
  > Nobody else is complaining that the devices don't do everything. Tons of regular consumers think that USB-C is a protocol and frequently complain that things they think should work together don’t, because they’re actually radically different ports electrically that happen to be shaped the same. Gaming forums are rife with elaborate conspiracy theories behind why Nintendo won’t “just” release an eGPU Dock for the Switch, which it “obviously” “must” support because it’s USB-C and eGPUs have “supported” USB-C for years. And now, Nintendo has announced a Switch Lite with no TV out (presumably they removed the DisplayPort crossbar IC that does alternate mode muxing with the USB 3.0 signal, to reduce manufacturing costs). But Joe Average Consumer is up in arms, this “must be them sabotaging it in software”, because “video out is a required part of the USB-C standard, this wouldn’t even save them any money, USB-C always physically supports video out”. The average consumer in no way understands that USB-C is just a connector shape that a bunch of different incompatible things use. They think that, like almost all previous ports, the shape indicates a common protocol that is shared by things that have that shape. And they are absolutely complaining about a lack of what they perceive should be compatibility.
  - Dylan16807 7y ago
    > presumably the removed the DisplayPort crossbar IC that does alternate mode muxing with the USB 3.0 signal, to reduce manufacturing costs It probably saves some amount of money, but I'd bet that deliberately leaving it out to encourage sales of the full switch is a bigger factor. Otherwise I agree with you about protocol confusion. (Would you even need a mux? I don't think the switch uses USB 3 for anything.)
    - msbarnett 7y ago
      Yeah, you need the mux because you can run a wired Ethernet adapter in over USB at the same time it’s outputing a DisplayPort signal on the port.
      - Dylan16807 7y ago
runn1ng 7y ago
Nintendo mever advertises Switch as USB-C in any of their marketing though
- jazzyjackson 7y ago
  I think the overall theme of this thread is that it used to be, if the cable fit in the hole it will probably work. USB-C is the first time most people have run into their cable's shape not corresponding to the cable's capability (folks trying to do 4k video with shitty HDMI cables excepted)
- kalleboo 7y ago
  They do in their Japanese marketing https://www.nintendo.co.jp/hardware/switch/feature/img/08-local-specs/body-switch01-back.jpg https://www.nintendo.co.jp/hardware/switch/feature/img/08-lo...
isatty 7y ago
Okay so you've a bunch of different devices that have different capabilities - can you also mention the different cables you had to get (I'm just curious). In my case I have a switch, 2 macbook pros (2018, 2019) and an iPad pro (11.5") and I've not had much of a hard time finding cables, at least for power.
- Causality1 7y ago
  The only cable issue I've run into is that there are cheap MicroUSB to type-C adapters that are sold without a necessary 56Kohm resistor, which limits its functionality. It won't charge at high speed and it also prevents type-C devices from using OTG mode to talk to accessories like flash drives, mice, and cameras. There are also a few quirky combinations, like the fact a OnePlus Dash charger will absolutely refuse to provide power to a Switch while most phone chargers will power the handheld portion just fine if not the dock. A little too well in fact, as I had a RAVPower "40W 3A" car charger melt while using it to power a running Switch in the car.

peterburkimsher 7y ago

The Apple Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 adaptor supports nothing except Target Disk Mode. I tried using it to connect a USB-C SSD to my MacBook Pro 2014, using a Thundebolt 2 M-M wire, and the adaptor plugged into the SSD enclosure. It didn't work, though thankfully it didn't fry anything either. The Thunderbolt adaptor also doesn't work with MiniDP-VGA or MiniDP-HDMI adaptors. So I would need to buy a whole new set of video adaptors if I upgrade my laptop. Needless to say, I'm not in a hurry to do so. I like adaptors, and I have a large collection in my bag already for video out/in, phone charging, FireWire/Thunderbolt disk mode, and more. But I haven't even started collecting USB-C adaptors because it would only be for friends ("Sorry for the technical difficulties with the projector...") and I don't know which ones will work.

kalleboo 7y ago
I use the TB3-TB2 adaptor with their old TB2 Gigabit Ethernet adaptor all the time, so that works at least.
msbarnett 7y ago
> The Apple Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 adaptor supports nothing except Target Disk Mode. This isn’t correct. I use it daily to connect a MacBook Pro with Thunderbolt 2 ports to a RAID enclosure/dock with Thunderbolt 3 ports via a TB2 cable terminated with this adapter. An external monitor is attached to the enclosure, as well as several USB devices. The display port alternate mode signal and USB hub functionality all works simultaneously with the RAID. Of course, half the problem with USB-C is that the failures are incredibly opaque, so it’s hard to say why the adapter failed in your case. Maybe you plugged it into a USB 3 USB-C port instead of a TB3 USB-C port? My enclosure has separate USB-C ports for each protocol, and I need to be careful to select the right one.