8 ms·

The U.S. wants to dump 1.5 tons of rat poison pellets on the Farallon Islands

51 points by ilamont 7y ago

boyanpro 7y ago
They should drop 1500 cats instead. Problem solved.
- givinguflac 7y ago
  Much easier to recover from as well, and probably comparable or lower bird deaths.
  - rosser 7y ago
    Feral cats are profoundly destructive to bird populations.
    - trhway 7y ago
      that is an urban legend. If anything, in the absence of other natural predators as it happens around developed areas, the cats are the one providing the key function of culling ill/weak bird DNA from the population as well as just removing the billions of the old and naturally reaching their end-of-life birds from the population thus shaping the bird population pressure on limited resources toward favoring healthy/younger bird population and limiting the decease spread. Who is profoundly destructive are the rats who can eat the eggs - ie. hitting the bird population at the most vulnerable stage in the most destructive and non discriminating way. Cats do rats control too. As a result presence of feral cats provides for a very healthy bird population. Anecdotally observed that myself during my childhood at the grandmother's farm - there have always been gangs of feral cats at ours and other farms around and the bustling bird population happily living in the their nests all around the main house and the barns - unreachable for cats while would be easily worked on by rats if they were existing there.
      - rosser 7y ago
        > Anecdotally observed... Yeah, I'm talking about actual research, conducted on large colonies of ferals, not a couple cats at grandma's farm. Some links: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/feral-cats-kill-billions-of-small-critters-each-year-7814590/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/feral-cats-kil... https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/moral-cost-of-cats-180960505/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/moral-cost-of-... https://www.audubon.org/news/feral-cat-predation-birds-costs-billions-dollars-year https://www.audubon.org/news/feral-cat-predation-birds-costs... https://www.thespruce.com/discourage-feral-cats-386479 https://www.thespruce.com/discourage-feral-cats-386479 https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380 https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380 EDIT: And I say this as a cat owner. My current and prior cats were literal street rescues.
        trhway 7y ago
        > I'm talking about actual research, conducted on large colonies of ferals, not a couple cats at grandma's farm. i'm talking about close to 10 years observation on 8 farms each usually having 5-10 ferals. I kind of doubt that all of the research you refer to can match that. The links you point to is mostly fear mongering opinion pieces by the people with agenda (see the link below on animal cruelty criminal conviction) - "cats kill!" - we've been there with wolves killing caribou. And cats playing final shot for 33 species - well, among all those multitude of species disappearance and wildlife population decimation humans caused it is kind of surprising that it is only 33. I mean, statistically speaking any minor factor related to humans can be accounted for final shot for a hundreds and thousands of species disappearance. And specifically about those cat hating Smithsonian "researchers" what you so eager to link to - https://opinion.latimes.com/opinionla/2011/11/a-dc-bird-researcher-is-convicted-of-trying-to-poison-cats.html https://opinion.latimes.com/opinionla/2011/11/a-dc-bird-rese... "A postdoctoral researcher at the Smithsonian's Migratory Bird Center at the National Zoo was found guilty Monday of attempting to poison cats in her northwest Washington neighborhood. ... A District of Columbia Superior Court judge convicted her of attempted animal cruelty, a misdemeanor. " It is like a convicted murderer coming out with a research showing that the homicide of the kind he committed is good for society. Would you trust to and post links to such a "research"?
    - Fezzik 7y ago
      This is very accurate,. “Cats are responsible for helping drive 33 species of birds, mammals and reptiles to extinction on islands, including the Stephens Island wren in New Zealand in the late 1800s, according to the International Union for Conservation of Nature.” https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/outdoor-cats-kill-between-14-billion-and-37-billion-birds-a-year-study-says/2013/01/31/2504f744-6bbe-11e2-ada0-5ca5fa7ebe79_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/outdo...
- eaenki 7y ago
  Insane and smart at the same time. I like it.
  - cultus 7y ago
    No, it's a comically terrible idea. Feral cats are one of the worst invasive species for birds. It would be much, much worse than the rodents.
    - eaenki 7y ago
      Looks like my sarcasm didn't go thru.
- outworlder 7y ago
  That will do wonders for the bird population they are trying to preserve.
- goda90 7y ago
  Relevant Simpson's clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9yruQM1ggc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9yruQM1ggc
- jeff_carr 7y ago
  Wolves also would work (for those that might have seen 'Never Cry Wolf').
- projectramo 7y ago
  Then we can introduce some dogs to solve the cat problem...
- jcims 7y ago
  Or one Ted Biers from Ted's Holdover channel on YouTube.
- fencepost 7y ago
  They should drop 1500 cats instead. Frankly that's a terrible idea. If they were going to introduce a new predator species they'd likely be better off with a limited number of terriers trained at ratting (at least for a first generation), but that could have a significant impact on other wildlife on the island even if they were less inclined than cats to hunting birds. Overall the original plan sounds like it had a lot of thought behind it. They're talking about grain pellets (most sea mammals and seabirds aren't likely eating a lot of grain), at a time when most birds and sea mammals are away from the islands anyway, with crews retrieving as many mouse corpses as possible so other animals won't eat them and be exposed. They acknowledge that some non-targeted birds and animals will be affected, but in small enough numbers to not pose a serious risk to the population - and likely in smaller numbers than would be impacted by failing to address the mouse problems. More details at a non-firewalled article: https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/07/11/like-dropping-a-nuclear-bomb-on-this-island-feds-delay-farallon-islands-poison-airdrop-bid/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/07/11/like-dropping-a-nucle...
  - fencepost 7y ago
    A followup if anyone is still reading, I originally didn't mention that they're basically attempting to eliminate the mice on the islands not just control the population. "the only battle-tested and proven method to ensure the mice do not return. Nearly 50 other methods that were explored such as using contraceptives, individual traps, pathogens and others were deemed infeasible or unable to end the mouse problem for good."
quotha 7y ago
They should use ContraPest Fertility Control: https://senestech.com/contrapest/ https://senestech.com/contrapest/
- lazerpants 7y ago
  How does it work? I looked at the website but I didn't see the drug or hormone being used listed.
  - giarc 7y ago
    The SDS sheet was linked near the bottom. It lists vinylcyclohexene diepoxide and triptolide as active ingredients. https://senestech.com/wp-content/uploads/SDS-051517-Final-Version-CAUTION-word-1.pdf https://senestech.com/wp-content/uploads/SDS-051517-Final-Ve...
    - lazerpants 7y ago
      Ah got it, thanks. I'm guessing that the vinylcyclohexene dioxide may be ovotoxic in other animals or perhaps there are concerns that it would get into the water? Granted, it seems like those are valid concerns for brodifacoum too.
trixie_ 7y ago
According to the article the Fish and Wildlife Service has researched this extensively. Reports have found it's 'consistent with the state’s marine protection and water quality policies.' Experts who make this their livelihood recommend this course of action. The public response seems purely reactionary. The comments strengthen this argument with silly quips here and there like, 'we should just drop some cats', etc.. Very little rational discussion by the press and public. As opposed to Fish and Wildlife who is taking this very seriously. Armchair experts.
- wurst_case 7y ago
  Yeah, because those guys never get it wrong. /s It is always okay for citizens of this country to criticize the actions of our government. It is healthy to be skeptical of programs.
  - wil421 7y ago
    What about times they get something right? It’s a thankless job I hope to never have.
    - rosser 7y ago
      I have an uncle who's a retired Game, Fish, and Parks warden from Alaska. From his stories, at least, it's far less thankless a job than your comment would make it out. To be sure, he caught no end of flak and abuse from people who were over their quota, or fishing in the wrong place, or poaching, or whatever, but — at least according to his telling — the majority of citizens he interacted with exhibited many-to-most of the "good" traits we associate with "outdoorsman" and such.
      - wil421 7y ago
        Good, next time I’m fishing and get approached by the DNR I’ll be sure to thank them. Fishing is weird in some ways. My trout stamp directly funds the stocking and protection of trout waters in Georgia. The parking passes I use for fishing and kayaking locally directly fund those parks and rivers. The same in Florida, my saltwater license is funding the restocking of Redfish and other species that were wiped out by Red Tide and hurricanes last year. For hunting and fishing you have a vested interest in the wildlife. I’ve seen hunters on TV call the DNR on themselves because they are that dedicated to the outdoors.
tantalor 7y ago
1.5 tons isn't very much. You could do that in one trip with a Bell 427.
el_benhameen 7y ago
The plan has already been withdrawn, at least for now: https://www.latimes.com/style/pets/la-me-farallon-islands-rat-poison-plan-20190710-story.html https://www.latimes.com/style/pets/la-me-farallon-islands-ra...
mistrial9 7y ago
the tragedies of California are almost too hard to believe, for modern people enjoying the luxuries of today Jul 16, 1981 - Five helicopters sprayed the pesticide malathion over 10133 acres today... and, Farewell, Promised Land https://www.ucpress.edu/op/9780520211230/farewell-promised-land https://www.ucpress.edu/op/9780520211230/farewell-promised-l...
bassman9000 7y ago
Why leaving the second part of the headline out? Biologists think it's for the best
- ilamont 7y ago
  Because it didn't fit within Hacker News' 80-character headline limit. Running up against the threshold happens to me all the time, thanks to HN's strict size limit (which used to be 100 when I started, then dropped to 90, and is now 80) and the trend for news headlines to get longer for SEO and better conversions. Sometimes I can rephrase but oftentimes I have to cut out several words to make it fit.

51 points by ilamont 7y ago

boyanpro 7y ago

They should drop 1500 cats instead. Problem solved.

givinguflac 7y ago
Much easier to recover from as well, and probably comparable or lower bird deaths.
- rosser 7y ago
  Feral cats are profoundly destructive to bird populations.
  - trhway 7y ago
    that is an urban legend. If anything, in the absence of other natural predators as it happens around developed areas, the cats are the one providing the key function of culling ill/weak bird DNA from the population as well as just removing the billions of the old and naturally reaching their end-of-life birds from the population thus shaping the bird population pressure on limited resources toward favoring healthy/younger bird population and limiting the decease spread. Who is profoundly destructive are the rats who can eat the eggs - ie. hitting the bird population at the most vulnerable stage in the most destructive and non discriminating way. Cats do rats control too. As a result presence of feral cats provides for a very healthy bird population. Anecdotally observed that myself during my childhood at the grandmother's farm - there have always been gangs of feral cats at ours and other farms around and the bustling bird population happily living in the their nests all around the main house and the barns - unreachable for cats while would be easily worked on by rats if they were existing there.
    - rosser 7y ago
      > Anecdotally observed... Yeah, I'm talking about actual research, conducted on large colonies of ferals, not a couple cats at grandma's farm. Some links: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/feral-cats-kill-billions-of-small-critters-each-year-7814590/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/feral-cats-kil... https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/moral-cost-of-cats-180960505/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/moral-cost-of-... https://www.audubon.org/news/feral-cat-predation-birds-costs-billions-dollars-year https://www.audubon.org/news/feral-cat-predation-birds-costs... https://www.thespruce.com/discourage-feral-cats-386479 https://www.thespruce.com/discourage-feral-cats-386479 https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380 https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380 EDIT: And I say this as a cat owner. My current and prior cats were literal street rescues.
      - trhway 7y ago
        > I'm talking about actual research, conducted on large colonies of ferals, not a couple cats at grandma's farm. i'm talking about close to 10 years observation on 8 farms each usually having 5-10 ferals. I kind of doubt that all of the research you refer to can match that. The links you point to is mostly fear mongering opinion pieces by the people with agenda (see the link below on animal cruelty criminal conviction) - "cats kill!" - we've been there with wolves killing caribou. And cats playing final shot for 33 species - well, among all those multitude of species disappearance and wildlife population decimation humans caused it is kind of surprising that it is only 33. I mean, statistically speaking any minor factor related to humans can be accounted for final shot for a hundreds and thousands of species disappearance. And specifically about those cat hating Smithsonian "researchers" what you so eager to link to - https://opinion.latimes.com/opinionla/2011/11/a-dc-bird-researcher-is-convicted-of-trying-to-poison-cats.html https://opinion.latimes.com/opinionla/2011/11/a-dc-bird-rese... "A postdoctoral researcher at the Smithsonian's Migratory Bird Center at the National Zoo was found guilty Monday of attempting to poison cats in her northwest Washington neighborhood. ... A District of Columbia Superior Court judge convicted her of attempted animal cruelty, a misdemeanor. " It is like a convicted murderer coming out with a research showing that the homicide of the kind he committed is good for society. Would you trust to and post links to such a "research"?
  - Fezzik 7y ago
    This is very accurate,. “Cats are responsible for helping drive 33 species of birds, mammals and reptiles to extinction on islands, including the Stephens Island wren in New Zealand in the late 1800s, according to the International Union for Conservation of Nature.” https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/outdoor-cats-kill-between-14-billion-and-37-billion-birds-a-year-study-says/2013/01/31/2504f744-6bbe-11e2-ada0-5ca5fa7ebe79_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/outdo...
eaenki 7y ago
Insane and smart at the same time. I like it.
- cultus 7y ago
  No, it's a comically terrible idea. Feral cats are one of the worst invasive species for birds. It would be much, much worse than the rodents.
  - eaenki 7y ago
    Looks like my sarcasm didn't go thru.
outworlder 7y ago
That will do wonders for the bird population they are trying to preserve.
goda90 7y ago
Relevant Simpson's clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9yruQM1ggc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9yruQM1ggc
jeff_carr 7y ago
Wolves also would work (for those that might have seen 'Never Cry Wolf').
projectramo 7y ago
Then we can introduce some dogs to solve the cat problem...
jcims 7y ago
Or one Ted Biers from Ted's Holdover channel on YouTube.
fencepost 7y ago
They should drop 1500 cats instead. Frankly that's a terrible idea. If they were going to introduce a new predator species they'd likely be better off with a limited number of terriers trained at ratting (at least for a first generation), but that could have a significant impact on other wildlife on the island even if they were less inclined than cats to hunting birds. Overall the original plan sounds like it had a lot of thought behind it. They're talking about grain pellets (most sea mammals and seabirds aren't likely eating a lot of grain), at a time when most birds and sea mammals are away from the islands anyway, with crews retrieving as many mouse corpses as possible so other animals won't eat them and be exposed. They acknowledge that some non-targeted birds and animals will be affected, but in small enough numbers to not pose a serious risk to the population - and likely in smaller numbers than would be impacted by failing to address the mouse problems. More details at a non-firewalled article: https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/07/11/like-dropping-a-nuclear-bomb-on-this-island-feds-delay-farallon-islands-poison-airdrop-bid/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/07/11/like-dropping-a-nucle...
- fencepost 7y ago
  A followup if anyone is still reading, I originally didn't mention that they're basically attempting to eliminate the mice on the islands not just control the population. "the only battle-tested and proven method to ensure the mice do not return. Nearly 50 other methods that were explored such as using contraceptives, individual traps, pathogens and others were deemed infeasible or unable to end the mouse problem for good."

quotha 7y ago

They should use ContraPest Fertility Control: https://senestech.com/contrapest/ https://senestech.com/contrapest/

lazerpants 7y ago
How does it work? I looked at the website but I didn't see the drug or hormone being used listed.
- giarc 7y ago
  The SDS sheet was linked near the bottom. It lists vinylcyclohexene diepoxide and triptolide as active ingredients. https://senestech.com/wp-content/uploads/SDS-051517-Final-Version-CAUTION-word-1.pdf https://senestech.com/wp-content/uploads/SDS-051517-Final-Ve...
  - lazerpants 7y ago
    Ah got it, thanks. I'm guessing that the vinylcyclohexene dioxide may be ovotoxic in other animals or perhaps there are concerns that it would get into the water? Granted, it seems like those are valid concerns for brodifacoum too.

trixie_ 7y ago

According to the article the Fish and Wildlife Service has researched this extensively. Reports have found it's 'consistent with the state’s marine protection and water quality policies.' Experts who make this their livelihood recommend this course of action. The public response seems purely reactionary. The comments strengthen this argument with silly quips here and there like, 'we should just drop some cats', etc.. Very little rational discussion by the press and public. As opposed to Fish and Wildlife who is taking this very seriously. Armchair experts.

wurst_case 7y ago
Yeah, because those guys never get it wrong. /s It is always okay for citizens of this country to criticize the actions of our government. It is healthy to be skeptical of programs.
- wil421 7y ago
  What about times they get something right? It’s a thankless job I hope to never have.
  - rosser 7y ago
    I have an uncle who's a retired Game, Fish, and Parks warden from Alaska. From his stories, at least, it's far less thankless a job than your comment would make it out. To be sure, he caught no end of flak and abuse from people who were over their quota, or fishing in the wrong place, or poaching, or whatever, but — at least according to his telling — the majority of citizens he interacted with exhibited many-to-most of the "good" traits we associate with "outdoorsman" and such.
    - wil421 7y ago
      Good, next time I’m fishing and get approached by the DNR I’ll be sure to thank them. Fishing is weird in some ways. My trout stamp directly funds the stocking and protection of trout waters in Georgia. The parking passes I use for fishing and kayaking locally directly fund those parks and rivers. The same in Florida, my saltwater license is funding the restocking of Redfish and other species that were wiped out by Red Tide and hurricanes last year. For hunting and fishing you have a vested interest in the wildlife. I’ve seen hunters on TV call the DNR on themselves because they are that dedicated to the outdoors.

tantalor 7y ago

1.5 tons isn't very much. You could do that in one trip with a Bell 427.

el_benhameen 7y ago

The plan has already been withdrawn, at least for now: https://www.latimes.com/style/pets/la-me-farallon-islands-rat-poison-plan-20190710-story.html https://www.latimes.com/style/pets/la-me-farallon-islands-ra...

mistrial9 7y ago

the tragedies of California are almost too hard to believe, for modern people enjoying the luxuries of today Jul 16, 1981 - Five helicopters sprayed the pesticide malathion over 10133 acres today... and, Farewell, Promised Land https://www.ucpress.edu/op/9780520211230/farewell-promised-land https://www.ucpress.edu/op/9780520211230/farewell-promised-l...

bassman9000 7y ago

Why leaving the second part of the headline out? Biologists think it's for the best

ilamont 7y ago
Because it didn't fit within Hacker News' 80-character headline limit. Running up against the threshold happens to me all the time, thanks to HN's strict size limit (which used to be 100 when I started, then dropped to 90, and is now 80) and the trend for news headlines to get longer for SEO and better conversions. Sometimes I can rephrase but oftentimes I have to cut out several words to make it fit.