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My post's not straw man. I responded to precisely what the parent poster said. They were very specific about the cognitive dissonance they perceived. If we're

My post's not straw man. I responded to precisely what the parent poster said. They were very specific about the cognitive dissonance they perceived. If we're pointing out actual logical fallacies... to lose and fail graciously is more virtuous than trying to preserve the ego and pretend that it was a win In a universe where those are the only two possibilities? Sure. You and OP are presenting a false dichotomy. Parent poster claimed that unachieved goals can have only two outcomes: (1) cognitive dissonance where the subject "pretends" to be satisfied with the outcome (2) the subject admits failure. It's absolutely bizarre to deny that a person could, for example, actually shift their goals over a period of time, and conclude that they are engaging in cognitive dissonance if they decided on a different path.

krageon 7y ago
I think the point they were driving at was not that nobody can change their goals. It is just inconceivable to them that that is not failure. To set a different goal, you must first fail at the last one (if you did not achieve it). That is of course a way to look at your life that is perfectly okay, but it certainly wouldn't be my preference.
- JohnBooty 7y ago
  What an unfortunate way for them to view life. It's a bit heartbreaking to think about people viewing life in those terms. If I walk into the store intending to buy a shirt and decide I'd rather buy some pants instead, it would be very odd to consider that "a failure" to buy a shirt. And even odder for somebody to accuse me of "cognitive dissonance" to be happy with my pants instead of admitting "defeat."
  - ludston 7y ago
    Failure is such a normal thing that I cannot see how it would be heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking to think that some see all failure as a dark thing that must be avoided. Holding failure in low esteem is a path of fear and egomania. It sure is possible to rebrand every failure we make as success in some thing else. "I failed to win the tennis match, but I succeeded in hitting the ball into the net!". There is a reason "fail fast" is a mantra: it's through looking at our errors we have chances to do better.
    - JohnBooty 7y ago
      There is a reason "fail fast" is a mantra: it's through looking at our errors we have chances to do better. I'd agree, though that's not what this discussion was originally about. It sure is possible to rebrand every failure we make as success in some thing else. "I failed to win the tennis match, but I succeeded in hitting the ball into the net!". I agree, though nobody (at least not in this discussion) is endorsing that sort of cognitive gymnastics. There are no reasonable upsides to hitting the ball into the net, and it is not merely a "different" way of succeeding at the game others call tennis. Let's go back to the original parent poster, untog's, claim. When I'm at work, I do the best I can do. Then I get out of the door at a good time, go home to my family and have a blast with them. I'm happy, though my 21 year old self might recoil in horror to see it. To which AndrewKemendo replied, What I've seen happen is that people find cognitive-dissonance coping strategies like you describe Working reasonable hours and enjoying one's family is certainly not the life equivalent of hitting the tennis ball into the net, and it's awfully bleak to think that somebody's engaging in cognitive dissonance because their goals changed and they found happiness in a different way than they originally intended to.
      - AndrewKemendo 7y ago
        To be clearer "Cognitive Dissonance" is the feeling, it's not an activity that someone engages in. So the OP has the feeling of cognitive dissonance between their "21 year old self" and where they are today. My statement was meant to say that a common way people cope with this, in my experience, is to convince themselves to satisfice [1] instead of continuing to pursue their original goal. It could be claimed that for certain things, this could be considered "growing up" or "maturing", which in many cases might be true. The child who gives up their dream to be a superhero is truly maturing because superhero was never really an option. However falling into a stable local minima because you didn't become the CEO of a F500 company or become a championship tennis player etc...and convincing yourself that being a regional VP or a high school tennis coach is just as good because [reasons] seems to be how people cope with this dissonance. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisficing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisficing
celticmusic 7y ago
More to the point, it's absolutely normal for people to shift their perspective, it's called growing as a person, part of said growth is learning more about yourself, and getting better at life in general. I know it sounds dismissive, but I get the strong impression these other posters are young.
- JohnBooty 7y ago
  Yeah. I feel a mixture of jealousy and sympathy for those those perspectives never change.

krageon 7y ago

I think the point they were driving at was not that nobody can change their goals. It is just inconceivable to them that that is not failure. To set a different goal, you must first fail at the last one (if you did not achieve it). That is of course a way to look at your life that is perfectly okay, but it certainly wouldn't be my preference.

JohnBooty 7y ago
What an unfortunate way for them to view life. It's a bit heartbreaking to think about people viewing life in those terms. If I walk into the store intending to buy a shirt and decide I'd rather buy some pants instead, it would be very odd to consider that "a failure" to buy a shirt. And even odder for somebody to accuse me of "cognitive dissonance" to be happy with my pants instead of admitting "defeat."
- ludston 7y ago
  Failure is such a normal thing that I cannot see how it would be heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking to think that some see all failure as a dark thing that must be avoided. Holding failure in low esteem is a path of fear and egomania. It sure is possible to rebrand every failure we make as success in some thing else. "I failed to win the tennis match, but I succeeded in hitting the ball into the net!". There is a reason "fail fast" is a mantra: it's through looking at our errors we have chances to do better.
  - JohnBooty 7y ago
    There is a reason "fail fast" is a mantra: it's through looking at our errors we have chances to do better. I'd agree, though that's not what this discussion was originally about. It sure is possible to rebrand every failure we make as success in some thing else. "I failed to win the tennis match, but I succeeded in hitting the ball into the net!". I agree, though nobody (at least not in this discussion) is endorsing that sort of cognitive gymnastics. There are no reasonable upsides to hitting the ball into the net, and it is not merely a "different" way of succeeding at the game others call tennis. Let's go back to the original parent poster, untog's, claim. When I'm at work, I do the best I can do. Then I get out of the door at a good time, go home to my family and have a blast with them. I'm happy, though my 21 year old self might recoil in horror to see it. To which AndrewKemendo replied, What I've seen happen is that people find cognitive-dissonance coping strategies like you describe Working reasonable hours and enjoying one's family is certainly not the life equivalent of hitting the tennis ball into the net, and it's awfully bleak to think that somebody's engaging in cognitive dissonance because their goals changed and they found happiness in a different way than they originally intended to.
    - AndrewKemendo 7y ago
      To be clearer "Cognitive Dissonance" is the feeling, it's not an activity that someone engages in. So the OP has the feeling of cognitive dissonance between their "21 year old self" and where they are today. My statement was meant to say that a common way people cope with this, in my experience, is to convince themselves to satisfice [1] instead of continuing to pursue their original goal. It could be claimed that for certain things, this could be considered "growing up" or "maturing", which in many cases might be true. The child who gives up their dream to be a superhero is truly maturing because superhero was never really an option. However falling into a stable local minima because you didn't become the CEO of a F500 company or become a championship tennis player etc...and convincing yourself that being a regional VP or a high school tennis coach is just as good because [reasons] seems to be how people cope with this dissonance. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisficing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisficing

celticmusic 7y ago

More to the point, it's absolutely normal for people to shift their perspective, it's called growing as a person, part of said growth is learning more about yourself, and getting better at life in general. I know it sounds dismissive, but I get the strong impression these other posters are young.

JohnBooty 7y ago
Yeah. I feel a mixture of jealousy and sympathy for those those perspectives never change.