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> That's not cognitive dissonance. That's learning and growing. This is committing the straw-man fallacy. The poster that this is responding to did not elabora

> That's not cognitive dissonance. That's learning and growing. This is committing the straw-man fallacy. The poster that this is responding to did not elaborate on what cognitive-dissonance they are referring to. In this case "learning and growing" is an optimistic, ego-stroking spin on "admitting defeat". I believe that AndrewKemendo has chosen his words carefully because being able to lose and fail graciously is more virtuous than trying to preserve the ego and pretend that it was a win.

selestify 7y ago
But "lose" and "fail," as well as "win," are subjective. What counted as "losing" when you started may become "winning" by the time 5 years have passed, due to the change in perspective.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- JohnBooty 7y ago
  Absolutely. As a kid I wanted to make video games and (like many) this lead me to pursue software development as a career. By the time I made it through college in the 90s I'd learned more and more about the games industry and learned that it's generally not a very happy place to work. Certainly not a place for me. So I chose a different path. With several decades of following the game industry under my belt I feel I can very, very conclusively decide that this was the right call for me. Look at all the articles about game devs working insane crunch time and then being laid off as soon as the game ships, etc. I'm sure some enjoy it but it's very close to my idea of hell. Simply avoiding that fate is something I count as a minor victory, and I've gone on to do other things. It's madness for the parent poster to dismiss this sort of thing as either "failure" or "cognitive dissonance." I simply decided my original goal was not worth pursuing.
  - ludston 7y ago
    You set a goal (make video games) then gave up on it (didn't make video games), thus failing that goal. It isn't madness, nor is it rocket surgery. It's pure semantics. I guess you have chosen a path that is not mentioned, "give up and try something new, but then pretend that isn't what you did"? "I don't call it giving up... I call it learning."
    - JohnBooty 7y ago
      If you walked into your kitchen with the goal of making a sandwich and decided you wanted some oatmeal instead, would you call that a "failure?" Did you experience a "defeat?" Most wouldn't say that you "failed" at making a sandwich unless you truly attempted to assemble a sandwich and were unable to do so. Most would not consider me to have "failed" to become a game developer unless I'd made a true attempt at doing so: applying for jobs and failing to obtain one, or perhaps obtaining jobs and failing at those. Just as very few would consider me to have failed at becoming an astronaut or a professional hockey player, two other things I wanted to be as a child. Strict definitions of "failure" aside, though, what I found really bizarre and bleak was the parent poster's claim that enjoying one's newly chosen goal+outcome to require an act of willful cognitive dissonance.
JohnBooty 7y ago
My post's not straw man. I responded to precisely what the parent poster said. They were very specific about the cognitive dissonance they perceived. If we're pointing out actual logical fallacies... to lose and fail graciously is more virtuous than trying to preserve the ego and pretend that it was a win In a universe where those are the only two possibilities? Sure. You and OP are presenting a false dichotomy. Parent poster claimed that unachieved goals can have only two outcomes: (1) cognitive dissonance where the subject "pretends" to be satisfied with the outcome (2) the subject admits failure. It's absolutely bizarre to deny that a person could, for example, actually shift their goals over a period of time, and conclude that they are engaging in cognitive dissonance if they decided on a different path.
- krageon 7y ago
  I think the point they were driving at was not that nobody can change their goals. It is just inconceivable to them that that is not failure. To set a different goal, you must first fail at the last one (if you did not achieve it). That is of course a way to look at your life that is perfectly okay, but it certainly wouldn't be my preference.
  - JohnBooty 7y ago
    What an unfortunate way for them to view life. It's a bit heartbreaking to think about people viewing life in those terms. If I walk into the store intending to buy a shirt and decide I'd rather buy some pants instead, it would be very odd to consider that "a failure" to buy a shirt. And even odder for somebody to accuse me of "cognitive dissonance" to be happy with my pants instead of admitting "defeat."
    - ludston 7y ago
      Failure is such a normal thing that I cannot see how it would be heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking to think that some see all failure as a dark thing that must be avoided. Holding failure in low esteem is a path of fear and egomania. It sure is possible to rebrand every failure we make as success in some thing else. "I failed to win the tennis match, but I succeeded in hitting the ball into the net!". There is a reason "fail fast" is a mantra: it's through looking at our errors we have chances to do better.

selestify 7y ago

But "lose" and "fail," as well as "win," are subjective. What counted as "losing" when you started may become "winning" by the time 5 years have passed, due to the change in perspective.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
JohnBooty 7y ago
Absolutely. As a kid I wanted to make video games and (like many) this lead me to pursue software development as a career. By the time I made it through college in the 90s I'd learned more and more about the games industry and learned that it's generally not a very happy place to work. Certainly not a place for me. So I chose a different path. With several decades of following the game industry under my belt I feel I can very, very conclusively decide that this was the right call for me. Look at all the articles about game devs working insane crunch time and then being laid off as soon as the game ships, etc. I'm sure some enjoy it but it's very close to my idea of hell. Simply avoiding that fate is something I count as a minor victory, and I've gone on to do other things. It's madness for the parent poster to dismiss this sort of thing as either "failure" or "cognitive dissonance." I simply decided my original goal was not worth pursuing.
- ludston 7y ago
  You set a goal (make video games) then gave up on it (didn't make video games), thus failing that goal. It isn't madness, nor is it rocket surgery. It's pure semantics. I guess you have chosen a path that is not mentioned, "give up and try something new, but then pretend that isn't what you did"? "I don't call it giving up... I call it learning."
  - JohnBooty 7y ago
    If you walked into your kitchen with the goal of making a sandwich and decided you wanted some oatmeal instead, would you call that a "failure?" Did you experience a "defeat?" Most wouldn't say that you "failed" at making a sandwich unless you truly attempted to assemble a sandwich and were unable to do so. Most would not consider me to have "failed" to become a game developer unless I'd made a true attempt at doing so: applying for jobs and failing to obtain one, or perhaps obtaining jobs and failing at those. Just as very few would consider me to have failed at becoming an astronaut or a professional hockey player, two other things I wanted to be as a child. Strict definitions of "failure" aside, though, what I found really bizarre and bleak was the parent poster's claim that enjoying one's newly chosen goal+outcome to require an act of willful cognitive dissonance.

JohnBooty 7y ago

My post's not straw man. I responded to precisely what the parent poster said. They were very specific about the cognitive dissonance they perceived. If we're pointing out actual logical fallacies... to lose and fail graciously is more virtuous than trying to preserve the ego and pretend that it was a win In a universe where those are the only two possibilities? Sure. You and OP are presenting a false dichotomy. Parent poster claimed that unachieved goals can have only two outcomes: (1) cognitive dissonance where the subject "pretends" to be satisfied with the outcome (2) the subject admits failure. It's absolutely bizarre to deny that a person could, for example, actually shift their goals over a period of time, and conclude that they are engaging in cognitive dissonance if they decided on a different path.

krageon 7y ago
I think the point they were driving at was not that nobody can change their goals. It is just inconceivable to them that that is not failure. To set a different goal, you must first fail at the last one (if you did not achieve it). That is of course a way to look at your life that is perfectly okay, but it certainly wouldn't be my preference.
- JohnBooty 7y ago
  What an unfortunate way for them to view life. It's a bit heartbreaking to think about people viewing life in those terms. If I walk into the store intending to buy a shirt and decide I'd rather buy some pants instead, it would be very odd to consider that "a failure" to buy a shirt. And even odder for somebody to accuse me of "cognitive dissonance" to be happy with my pants instead of admitting "defeat."
  - ludston 7y ago
    Failure is such a normal thing that I cannot see how it would be heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking to think that some see all failure as a dark thing that must be avoided. Holding failure in low esteem is a path of fear and egomania. It sure is possible to rebrand every failure we make as success in some thing else. "I failed to win the tennis match, but I succeeded in hitting the ball into the net!". There is a reason "fail fast" is a mantra: it's through looking at our errors we have chances to do better.