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I’m not sure where the idea comes from that a new type certificate or even simulator training would destroy the program. If the MAX is found to be too different

I’m not sure where the idea comes from that a new type certificate or even simulator training would destroy the program. If the MAX is found to be too different from the current 737 type rating and requires a trip to the sim for pilots then airlines are going to do it. Boeing will likely end up footing a good chunk of the bill but there is no way the 350+ airframes that are already built are simply going to be scrapped. To put it in perspective, in North America, American Airlines and United Airlines have each ordered at least 100 of the airframes. These airlines each operate several different fleet types of similar sizes that each require putting pilots through extensive training to move them back and forth. The economics of operating the MAX would be changed but I would imagine it’s still going to come out as cost effective when considering how much more efficient the aircraft is vs the older aircraft they’ll be replacing. I certainly appreciate the skepticism of getting the product back out there without extensive training. I think even after its all said and done the pilots and pilots’ unions will heavily advocate for additional training to ensure these things are being operated safely.

LeifCarrotson 7y ago
Requiring simulator training and a new type cert may have meant that the 373 Max was less financially competitive with the Airbus A320. But if Boeing can get out of this disaster with a few more AoA sensors on each airframe, some safety-critical software, some simulators, and some free training for the airlines to send their pilots to...they'd be fools not to do that. A fleet sitting on the ground for months is worth a lot more than some simulator time.
- msbarnett 7y ago
  > Requiring simulator training and a new type cert may have meant that the 373 Max was less financially competitive with the Airbus A320. Yeah, but at this point that’s just going to mean Boeing ends up selling these things for less of a profit. There’s years of backlog of 737 MAX orders, and years of backlog of A320 Neo orders. Airlines with orders in for dozens of MAXes in 2021 aren’t going to be able to switch those orders to Neos without incurring years and years of delays on delivery.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
the_mitsuhiko 7y ago
> I’m not sure where the idea comes from that a new type certificate or even simulator training would destroy the program. A new type rating cannot use grandfather rights. There is plenty of stuff in this plane that is not permitted any more (like the door design over the wings). Those would be massive changes to the plane.
- bronco21016 7y ago
  Source on door over wings? The brand new design A220 (Bombardier C-Series) has an over wing exit. I just couldn’t find anything in a couple of quick searches banning it. That’s just one example though and you’re likely right. The thing is though most of these systems have modern adaptations that could be applied. They just haven’t been because of the desire to keep it a 737. They’re things that can be changed/fixed whereas the aerodynamics of the design cannot be be changed easily.
  - the_mitsuhiko 7y ago
    The 737 overwing exits have a non plug style door which are not permitted any more. It uses a few sensor inputs to engage a lock so you can’t open it during flight.
    - bronco21016 7y ago
      Today I Learned... Thanks!
    - nemetroid 7y ago
      Do you have a source for this? From what I can find, the up-and-coming A220 has the same design[0] for the overwing exit as the 737, which was added in the 737NG redesign. Earlier 737s had plug doors: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gZ22iQBlmc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gZ22iQBlmc 0: https://rr-spotter.de/im-airbus-a220-300-von-air-baltic-nach-riga/a220_safetycard/ https://rr-spotter.de/im-airbus-a220-300-von-air-baltic-nach...
      - 7y ago
nabla9 7y ago
Not only you need to get the new certificate, you must do proficiency check every year for every type rating to keep them current, have recurrent training and check rides.
- yebyen 7y ago
  It's worse than that, as I understand it a professional airline pilot can only remain type-certified in a single type rating at one time. That means that if 737MAX requires a new type certification, then it requires in order to make business sense for airlines either (at a minimum) additional costly fragmentation of the airlines' employee pool, or more likely making plans to retire the fleet of planes that are classified under the prior "not as profitable body design" of type certification. My source is hard to narrow down, I've been listening to the APG podcast show, where Captain Jeff (the not-as-good-looking Jeff) flies MD-80's for "Acme Airlines", I guess which is a major US legacy carrier who has been renamed to protect the innocent. It might have been something I heard here, or read online, and I am not a pilot, so willing to be called out by anyone who knows more than me, please feel free to chime right in here if you know different. I can't seem to find a source for this fact. I think perhaps what I misunderstood might be, if there is no law or regulation that says you can't be type certified in multiple aircrafts at once, actually have to turn in your current type rating in order to get another one... (???) ... but that the practicality of maintaining multiple type ratings for a pilot makes it something basically so expensive or onerous as an Airline Transport Pilot, that it would be practically unheard of for someone to maintain two type rating certifications at once for any period of time. And it seems logical the same thus goes for airlines themselves. The Southwest brand of cheap flights was originally made possible by the fact that their entire fleet was made up of planes with just one type rating. The more type ratings that must be maintained, the less nimble and profitable the company will be. It seems likely we're going to see more airlines going under as this story unfolds, either that or some kind of major bailouts. I don't even know if they make any insurance that covers this scope and scale of business catastrophe.
  - temac 7y ago
    > It's worse than that, as I understand it a professional airline pilot can only remain type-certified in a single type rating at one time. That's not my understanding: I think you can simultaneously be certified for multiple planes, however companies will only make you fly for one at a time, currently. My guess is that if the Max needs a new certification, it will create a whole new model given it is still really close to the NG (and basic 737, if they still fly), so it might be more convenient than risky (and costly) to allow pilots to be certified and fly on both, if really needed. Maybe this will not even be needed, because tons of companies use multiple types of aircraft already.

LeifCarrotson 7y ago

Requiring simulator training and a new type cert may have meant that the 373 Max was less financially competitive with the Airbus A320. But if Boeing can get out of this disaster with a few more AoA sensors on each airframe, some safety-critical software, some simulators, and some free training for the airlines to send their pilots to...they'd be fools not to do that. A fleet sitting on the ground for months is worth a lot more than some simulator time.

msbarnett 7y ago
> Requiring simulator training and a new type cert may have meant that the 373 Max was less financially competitive with the Airbus A320. Yeah, but at this point that’s just going to mean Boeing ends up selling these things for less of a profit. There’s years of backlog of 737 MAX orders, and years of backlog of A320 Neo orders. Airlines with orders in for dozens of MAXes in 2021 aren’t going to be able to switch those orders to Neos without incurring years and years of delays on delivery.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

the_mitsuhiko 7y ago

> I’m not sure where the idea comes from that a new type certificate or even simulator training would destroy the program. A new type rating cannot use grandfather rights. There is plenty of stuff in this plane that is not permitted any more (like the door design over the wings). Those would be massive changes to the plane.

bronco21016 7y ago
Source on door over wings? The brand new design A220 (Bombardier C-Series) has an over wing exit. I just couldn’t find anything in a couple of quick searches banning it. That’s just one example though and you’re likely right. The thing is though most of these systems have modern adaptations that could be applied. They just haven’t been because of the desire to keep it a 737. They’re things that can be changed/fixed whereas the aerodynamics of the design cannot be be changed easily.
- the_mitsuhiko 7y ago
  The 737 overwing exits have a non plug style door which are not permitted any more. It uses a few sensor inputs to engage a lock so you can’t open it during flight.
  - bronco21016 7y ago
    Today I Learned... Thanks!
  - nemetroid 7y ago
    Do you have a source for this? From what I can find, the up-and-coming A220 has the same design[0] for the overwing exit as the 737, which was added in the 737NG redesign. Earlier 737s had plug doors: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gZ22iQBlmc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gZ22iQBlmc 0: https://rr-spotter.de/im-airbus-a220-300-von-air-baltic-nach-riga/a220_safetycard/ https://rr-spotter.de/im-airbus-a220-300-von-air-baltic-nach...
    - 7y ago

nabla9 7y ago

Not only you need to get the new certificate, you must do proficiency check every year for every type rating to keep them current, have recurrent training and check rides.

yebyen 7y ago
It's worse than that, as I understand it a professional airline pilot can only remain type-certified in a single type rating at one time. That means that if 737MAX requires a new type certification, then it requires in order to make business sense for airlines either (at a minimum) additional costly fragmentation of the airlines' employee pool, or more likely making plans to retire the fleet of planes that are classified under the prior "not as profitable body design" of type certification. My source is hard to narrow down, I've been listening to the APG podcast show, where Captain Jeff (the not-as-good-looking Jeff) flies MD-80's for "Acme Airlines", I guess which is a major US legacy carrier who has been renamed to protect the innocent. It might have been something I heard here, or read online, and I am not a pilot, so willing to be called out by anyone who knows more than me, please feel free to chime right in here if you know different. I can't seem to find a source for this fact. I think perhaps what I misunderstood might be, if there is no law or regulation that says you can't be type certified in multiple aircrafts at once, actually have to turn in your current type rating in order to get another one... (???) ... but that the practicality of maintaining multiple type ratings for a pilot makes it something basically so expensive or onerous as an Airline Transport Pilot, that it would be practically unheard of for someone to maintain two type rating certifications at once for any period of time. And it seems logical the same thus goes for airlines themselves. The Southwest brand of cheap flights was originally made possible by the fact that their entire fleet was made up of planes with just one type rating. The more type ratings that must be maintained, the less nimble and profitable the company will be. It seems likely we're going to see more airlines going under as this story unfolds, either that or some kind of major bailouts. I don't even know if they make any insurance that covers this scope and scale of business catastrophe.
- temac 7y ago
  > It's worse than that, as I understand it a professional airline pilot can only remain type-certified in a single type rating at one time. That's not my understanding: I think you can simultaneously be certified for multiple planes, however companies will only make you fly for one at a time, currently. My guess is that if the Max needs a new certification, it will create a whole new model given it is still really close to the NG (and basic 737, if they still fly), so it might be more convenient than risky (and costly) to allow pilots to be certified and fly on both, if really needed. Maybe this will not even be needed, because tons of companies use multiple types of aircraft already.