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A big hope of the UBI movement is that it will "pay" people to take care of one another in a way that our usual monetary transfer for services rendered simply c

A big hope of the UBI movement is that it will "pay" people to take care of one another in a way that our usual monetary transfer for services rendered simply can't handle well. That is, someone taking care of their parent is not going to be paid for that service in our economy, but with a UBI, it allows one to get that economic support without it being a usual "job". The work of maintaining genuine social relationships is not a source of income, but it is what humans are most designed to do and it would be good to have a mechanism that supports that rather than hinders it. My personal hope is that a UBI leads to real communities where the old and the young have a place in our lives and they stop being seen as problems and as burdens on the middle-aged. Andrew Yang talks about this a lot in terms of his wife taking care of their children, but the idea equally applies to people taking care of anyone else.

Mediterraneo10 7y ago
I can think of some reasons that a UBI would not be a panacea here. Firstly, in many cases the younger generation has left their hometown for the big city, but the parents are left behind. Even if they got an UBI, few people are going to want to move back to the “middle of nowhere” to take care of their parents. Secondly, it is now often observed that parents and children, in spite of living under the same roof, are interacting less because the parents are staring at their devices, and children get devices, too. Even if people have the time and money to take care of their parents, do they have the interest in socializing?
- Retric 7y ago
  UBI would likely go much further living in the country than a major city. Cost of living adjustments are possible, but seem like a terrible idea. I don’t think you need to be constantly talking with an elderly parent for regular visits to be beneficial. A short chat, taking care of a few minor issues, and watching a movie together can make a real quality of life difference. It also demonstrates you still care.
wolco 7y ago
UBI will create the conditions for more suicides. Work can create purpose. UBI alone would strengthen the family unit and reduce external relationships.
- ben-schaaf 7y ago
  > UBI will create the conditions for more suicides. Work can create purpose. I completely agree, but isn't a major motivation behind UBI a lack of job availability due to automation?
- BigJono 7y ago
  It's not hard to find purpose in life that doesn't revolve around sitting at a desk doing fuck all and pretending to work for 40 hours a week. People will still work. Whether it's to get a leg up from the baseline or because it's something their passionate about, nothing will stop people from banding together to solve common goals. The current state of work is just a really shitty abstraction over that. I would have thought software engineers of all people would understand that.
  - wolco 7y ago
    That world doesn't and won't exist for most. In places where jobs are being lost and no one works people band together for crime more than innovation. The common goal being additional money. If you look at the wealthiest innovation is not what they do with there freetime either. Innovation requires motivation. Innovation requires resources.
    - Dylan16807 7y ago
      > In places where jobs are being lost and no one works people band together for crime more than innovation. The common goal being additional money. Because they're being thrown into poverty with no way out. The problem is not ennui. > If you look at the wealthiest Yeah sure, but UBI isn't going to make everyone multimillionaires.
eloff 7y ago
I liked the idea of UBI, but once people have the ability to vote for for politicians who promise to raise the UBI, wouldn't they just keep raising it until capital exits stage left and the economy devolves into a poor socialist economy? It seems like it could be setting a dangerous precedent. Once you start giving people free money, its political suicide to take it away. Look at Greece and Argentina as examples.
- BigJono 7y ago
  I wouldn't worry about it. Lower class people have been voting for governments that give them the shaft for as long as democracy has been a thing. Why would UBI change that?
  - eloff 7y ago
    Because if one party is offering to double my UBI check, they're going to get my vote - and I have the advantage of knowing all the ways that is likely to make everyone poorer overall. Now I don't know how other people think, but it seems reasonable they would also behave like that, maybe even be more likely to do so.
snarf21 7y ago
Yeah, this is an area I've thought about a lot. I've designed an inverse closed loop anti-UBI concept. I haven't had the time to launch it. Basically charities (to start) list tasks that pay credits, business register to accept credits (like a promotion or advertising spend), volunteers earn credits from the charities and spend them at participating business. The businesses then donate the credits back to the charity of their choice. The system is closed loop and non designed to be fungible. You can read more about it here http://www.thegoodloop.org http://www.thegoodloop.org

Mediterraneo10 7y ago

I can think of some reasons that a UBI would not be a panacea here. Firstly, in many cases the younger generation has left their hometown for the big city, but the parents are left behind. Even if they got an UBI, few people are going to want to move back to the “middle of nowhere” to take care of their parents. Secondly, it is now often observed that parents and children, in spite of living under the same roof, are interacting less because the parents are staring at their devices, and children get devices, too. Even if people have the time and money to take care of their parents, do they have the interest in socializing?

Retric 7y ago
UBI would likely go much further living in the country than a major city. Cost of living adjustments are possible, but seem like a terrible idea. I don’t think you need to be constantly talking with an elderly parent for regular visits to be beneficial. A short chat, taking care of a few minor issues, and watching a movie together can make a real quality of life difference. It also demonstrates you still care.

wolco 7y ago

UBI will create the conditions for more suicides. Work can create purpose. UBI alone would strengthen the family unit and reduce external relationships.

ben-schaaf 7y ago
> UBI will create the conditions for more suicides. Work can create purpose. I completely agree, but isn't a major motivation behind UBI a lack of job availability due to automation?
BigJono 7y ago
It's not hard to find purpose in life that doesn't revolve around sitting at a desk doing fuck all and pretending to work for 40 hours a week. People will still work. Whether it's to get a leg up from the baseline or because it's something their passionate about, nothing will stop people from banding together to solve common goals. The current state of work is just a really shitty abstraction over that. I would have thought software engineers of all people would understand that.
- wolco 7y ago
  That world doesn't and won't exist for most. In places where jobs are being lost and no one works people band together for crime more than innovation. The common goal being additional money. If you look at the wealthiest innovation is not what they do with there freetime either. Innovation requires motivation. Innovation requires resources.
  - Dylan16807 7y ago
    > In places where jobs are being lost and no one works people band together for crime more than innovation. The common goal being additional money. Because they're being thrown into poverty with no way out. The problem is not ennui. > If you look at the wealthiest Yeah sure, but UBI isn't going to make everyone multimillionaires.

eloff 7y ago

I liked the idea of UBI, but once people have the ability to vote for for politicians who promise to raise the UBI, wouldn't they just keep raising it until capital exits stage left and the economy devolves into a poor socialist economy? It seems like it could be setting a dangerous precedent. Once you start giving people free money, its political suicide to take it away. Look at Greece and Argentina as examples.

BigJono 7y ago
I wouldn't worry about it. Lower class people have been voting for governments that give them the shaft for as long as democracy has been a thing. Why would UBI change that?
- eloff 7y ago
  Because if one party is offering to double my UBI check, they're going to get my vote - and I have the advantage of knowing all the ways that is likely to make everyone poorer overall. Now I don't know how other people think, but it seems reasonable they would also behave like that, maybe even be more likely to do so.

snarf21 7y ago

Yeah, this is an area I've thought about a lot. I've designed an inverse closed loop anti-UBI concept. I haven't had the time to launch it. Basically charities (to start) list tasks that pay credits, business register to accept credits (like a promotion or advertising spend), volunteers earn credits from the charities and spend them at participating business. The businesses then donate the credits back to the charity of their choice. The system is closed loop and non designed to be fungible. You can read more about it here http://www.thegoodloop.org http://www.thegoodloop.org