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> Without having to charge the battery, a car could simply swap the battery out in second, completely removing ‘charge time’... Meanwhile, Hydrogen Fuel Cells w

> Without having to charge the battery, a car could simply swap the battery out in second, completely removing ‘charge time’... Meanwhile, Hydrogen Fuel Cells would require a huge and expensive Hydrogen distribution infrastructure and a new Hydrogen generation system. This is cool, but the above argument that battery a swap out system being much significant of a hurdle that developing an H2 infrastructure doesn't make sense. For a battery swap out, you need not only the infrastructure to deliver fresh batteries to points of use/sale, you also need to infrastrucutre to return the batteries to the recycling station, and the recycling station infrastructure itself. H2 fuel infrastructure simply requires H2 liberation from a water source and delivery to fueling statuons. Fuel cells exhaust water. Now, the H2 fuel cells themselves and their platinum-based membranes are another hurdle, but that's not the argument the author made. This author (and others) need do a more complete cost-benefit assessment.

mft_ 7y ago
Exactly. The text you quote is PR-messaging to cover up the major downside that these aren't rechargeable - they have to be swapped out. So they're not really a competitor for Lithium rechargeables; they're a competitor for Duracell gold-tops. (Interestingly, I recall that Tesla originally planned to offer battwry-swap stations, and even demonstrated over. Not sure why they dropped the plan - presume either logistics, or they developed their battery technology to allow charging more quickly than they'd originally thought possible?)
- zizee 7y ago
  There was an Israeli company trying to do this. Telsas now seem to be built around the battery pack, which is now a large flat heavy sled. I wouldn't be surprised if it was all to do with the practicality of low center of gravity, structural integrity, safety that such a configuration provides.
  - zeristor 7y ago
    I believe it was called a Better Place, from what I recall Renault was big on it, as was the Danish government. I wondered about this since you don't own the battery people won't be taking due care of it, it would be very capital intensive to have the battery replacement stations though. I got the gist right: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_(company) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_(company)
  - CrazyStat 7y ago
    The Model S and X were designed so that the battery can be swapped from below, and Tesla ran one station for several years where you could get this done. That station closed sometime in or around 2016 and they haven't talked about it since. The Model 3 and presumably future cars do not support battery swapping.
    - paranoidrobot 7y ago
      The one battery swap station was never really 'open' so much as trialled. It was a closed invite-only program, you had to book an appointment, and then come back and collect your original battery at a later date. Saying they ran it for years is a reach, since it doesn't seem to have opened even for pilot programs until sometime in mid/late 2015[1], and was already seemingly closed in May of 2016[0]. It didn't work anywhere near as slick as in their stage demo suggested. Taking up to 15 minutes for a pack swap the first time, and 5 minutes thereafter. There's suggestions that it was, at least in part, a tactic to get a greater share of credits[1] which Tesla sells to other car manufacturers[2]. Whether it was intended to be a real program or not is unclear, but they did give up on it pretty quickly in favour of a greater deployment of their Supercharging program. [0] https://electrek.co/2016/05/10/tesla-battery-swap-program-supercharger/ https://electrek.co/2016/05/10/tesla-battery-swap-program-su... [1] https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1096570_about-that-one-tesla-battery-swapping-station-an-update https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1096570_about-that-one-... [2] https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-sold-carbon-emissions-credits-to-general-motors-fiat-chryser-2019-6 https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-sold-carbon-emissio...
- Shivetya 7y ago
  two issues, super chargers were more than quick enough even when this technology was introduced. the second was that they had such little uptake it wasn't worth trying at more than the first site. the unwritten concern was, who owns which pack? is the new pack I swap going to swap back to me or equivalent?
  - shkkmo 7y ago
    > is the new pack I swap going to swap back to me or equivalent? the packs are not rechargable, you would be buying a new battery and getting paid to recycle your old battery.
    - Thorrez 7y ago
      Shivetya was talking about Telsa battery packs, which are rechargeable.
  - drawnwren 7y ago
    Convenience stores in Seoul used to (maybe they still do?) swap battery packs for Android phones for a small fee. My phone's battery time cut in half after the first time I did it. I would have been much more concerned if it was my car.
- m463 7y ago
  > these aren't rechargeable The only use I could imagine for these would be for a trucking company that wouldn't mind swapping and recycling the packs to keep their trucks going continuously. For folks who have adapted to EV cars, never having to go somewhere to fill up (or swap) would be hard to give up. And rechargable packs will get better. EDIT: ok... what about racers? Current EV racing is limited by the batteries. A lightweight aluminum pack that can be swapped when they change tires might make EV racing interesting. That assumes the power output from these packs isn't fundamentally limited in some way.
- mcpherrinm 7y ago
  > It's long been assumed that Tesla opened its sole experimental swapping station solely to fulfill the promise that caused the powerful California Air Resources Board (CARB) to grant the Model S extra zero-emission vehicle credits for "fast refueling" capability. > That translates to providing the car's full range in 10 minutes or less--which gasoline, diesel, natural gas, and hydrogen fuel-cell cars can achieve, but even a Supercharging Tesla cannot. https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2015/0312/Tesla-battery-swapping-useful-service-or-tax-credit-ploy https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2015/0312/Tesla-b...
nradov 7y ago
Hydrogen is probably a dead end. The net energy efficiency is terrible and not improving much. Meanwhile battery charging speeds keep improving every year.
dorfsmay 7y ago
> For a battery swap out, you need not only the infrastructure to deliver fresh batteries to points of use/sale With enough inventory, why couldn't you charge locally?
- hn23 7y ago
  Exactly my thought. To me this really sounds like a useful step of indirection. I guess one of the show stoppers was that all market players have to agree on a standard for batteries. It took years to standardize a charging point/ cable.
- mojomark 7y ago
  > With enough inventory, why couldn't you charge locally? Read the article a little closer and you'll see that these Aluminum-air batteries can't really recharge. The Aluminum is converted into a new (lower energy) compound as the energy is released from the battery. To "recharge" you need to send the battery back to a recycling facility where the Aluminum compound is smelted back into pure (higher energy) Aluminum. So the smelter is where the stored energy is coming from. I suppose someone could design a local smelter and reformer, but that seems like a pain given alternative battery options. Also, if anyone is interested, there is also a method by which Aluminum is used to react with water to liberate Hydrogen that can then be used as fuel in a fuel cell (same deal, the resulting Aluminum compound must be regenerated in a smelter if you want to reuse it). The subject Al-air battery seems a little better as it takes the need for a fuel cell out of the equation.
shkkmo 7y ago
The transportation and storage of an explosive gas like hydrogen is a bigger hurdle and would require new infrastructure to be build across the country. If you ameliorate this by swapping rather than recharging fuel cells, then you end up with a similar situation to aluminum batteries. The transportation and storage of battery packs can utilize the existing dry good shipping/stocking infrastructure. The new infrastructure that is needed is limited to the recycling facilities.
ajuc 7y ago
Also this isn't an advantage of metal-air batteries over Lithium-ion batteries. Both can be swapped.

mft_ 7y ago

Exactly. The text you quote is PR-messaging to cover up the major downside that these aren't rechargeable - they have to be swapped out. So they're not really a competitor for Lithium rechargeables; they're a competitor for Duracell gold-tops. (Interestingly, I recall that Tesla originally planned to offer battwry-swap stations, and even demonstrated over. Not sure why they dropped the plan - presume either logistics, or they developed their battery technology to allow charging more quickly than they'd originally thought possible?)

zizee 7y ago
There was an Israeli company trying to do this. Telsas now seem to be built around the battery pack, which is now a large flat heavy sled. I wouldn't be surprised if it was all to do with the practicality of low center of gravity, structural integrity, safety that such a configuration provides.
- zeristor 7y ago
  I believe it was called a Better Place, from what I recall Renault was big on it, as was the Danish government. I wondered about this since you don't own the battery people won't be taking due care of it, it would be very capital intensive to have the battery replacement stations though. I got the gist right: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_(company) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_(company)
- CrazyStat 7y ago
  The Model S and X were designed so that the battery can be swapped from below, and Tesla ran one station for several years where you could get this done. That station closed sometime in or around 2016 and they haven't talked about it since. The Model 3 and presumably future cars do not support battery swapping.
  - paranoidrobot 7y ago
    The one battery swap station was never really 'open' so much as trialled. It was a closed invite-only program, you had to book an appointment, and then come back and collect your original battery at a later date. Saying they ran it for years is a reach, since it doesn't seem to have opened even for pilot programs until sometime in mid/late 2015[1], and was already seemingly closed in May of 2016[0]. It didn't work anywhere near as slick as in their stage demo suggested. Taking up to 15 minutes for a pack swap the first time, and 5 minutes thereafter. There's suggestions that it was, at least in part, a tactic to get a greater share of credits[1] which Tesla sells to other car manufacturers[2]. Whether it was intended to be a real program or not is unclear, but they did give up on it pretty quickly in favour of a greater deployment of their Supercharging program. [0] https://electrek.co/2016/05/10/tesla-battery-swap-program-supercharger/ https://electrek.co/2016/05/10/tesla-battery-swap-program-su... [1] https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1096570_about-that-one-tesla-battery-swapping-station-an-update https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1096570_about-that-one-... [2] https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-sold-carbon-emissions-credits-to-general-motors-fiat-chryser-2019-6 https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-sold-carbon-emissio...
Shivetya 7y ago
two issues, super chargers were more than quick enough even when this technology was introduced. the second was that they had such little uptake it wasn't worth trying at more than the first site. the unwritten concern was, who owns which pack? is the new pack I swap going to swap back to me or equivalent?
- shkkmo 7y ago
  > is the new pack I swap going to swap back to me or equivalent? the packs are not rechargable, you would be buying a new battery and getting paid to recycle your old battery.
  - Thorrez 7y ago
    Shivetya was talking about Telsa battery packs, which are rechargeable.
- drawnwren 7y ago
  Convenience stores in Seoul used to (maybe they still do?) swap battery packs for Android phones for a small fee. My phone's battery time cut in half after the first time I did it. I would have been much more concerned if it was my car.
m463 7y ago
> these aren't rechargeable The only use I could imagine for these would be for a trucking company that wouldn't mind swapping and recycling the packs to keep their trucks going continuously. For folks who have adapted to EV cars, never having to go somewhere to fill up (or swap) would be hard to give up. And rechargable packs will get better. EDIT: ok... what about racers? Current EV racing is limited by the batteries. A lightweight aluminum pack that can be swapped when they change tires might make EV racing interesting. That assumes the power output from these packs isn't fundamentally limited in some way.
mcpherrinm 7y ago
> It's long been assumed that Tesla opened its sole experimental swapping station solely to fulfill the promise that caused the powerful California Air Resources Board (CARB) to grant the Model S extra zero-emission vehicle credits for "fast refueling" capability. > That translates to providing the car's full range in 10 minutes or less--which gasoline, diesel, natural gas, and hydrogen fuel-cell cars can achieve, but even a Supercharging Tesla cannot. https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2015/0312/Tesla-battery-swapping-useful-service-or-tax-credit-ploy https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2015/0312/Tesla-b...

nradov 7y ago

Hydrogen is probably a dead end. The net energy efficiency is terrible and not improving much. Meanwhile battery charging speeds keep improving every year.

dorfsmay 7y ago

> For a battery swap out, you need not only the infrastructure to deliver fresh batteries to points of use/sale With enough inventory, why couldn't you charge locally?

hn23 7y ago
Exactly my thought. To me this really sounds like a useful step of indirection. I guess one of the show stoppers was that all market players have to agree on a standard for batteries. It took years to standardize a charging point/ cable.
mojomark 7y ago
> With enough inventory, why couldn't you charge locally? Read the article a little closer and you'll see that these Aluminum-air batteries can't really recharge. The Aluminum is converted into a new (lower energy) compound as the energy is released from the battery. To "recharge" you need to send the battery back to a recycling facility where the Aluminum compound is smelted back into pure (higher energy) Aluminum. So the smelter is where the stored energy is coming from. I suppose someone could design a local smelter and reformer, but that seems like a pain given alternative battery options. Also, if anyone is interested, there is also a method by which Aluminum is used to react with water to liberate Hydrogen that can then be used as fuel in a fuel cell (same deal, the resulting Aluminum compound must be regenerated in a smelter if you want to reuse it). The subject Al-air battery seems a little better as it takes the need for a fuel cell out of the equation.

shkkmo 7y ago

The transportation and storage of an explosive gas like hydrogen is a bigger hurdle and would require new infrastructure to be build across the country. If you ameliorate this by swapping rather than recharging fuel cells, then you end up with a similar situation to aluminum batteries. The transportation and storage of battery packs can utilize the existing dry good shipping/stocking infrastructure. The new infrastructure that is needed is limited to the recycling facilities.

ajuc 7y ago

Also this isn't an advantage of metal-air batteries over Lithium-ion batteries. Both can be swapped.