5 ms·

In the face of so many outages from big companies, I wonder how Visa/MasterCard is so resilient. Is it because they are over the curve and don't make "any" cha

by vjagrawal1984 7y ago

In the face of so many outages from big companies, I wonder how Visa/MasterCard is so resilient. Is it because they are over the curve and don't make "any" changes to their system. As opposed to other companies, we are still maturing?

Thaxll 7y ago
They're also much simpler and the system behind payment solution didn't changed that much in the last 10 years.
- londons_explore 7y ago
  They are also miles behind on features customers want... For example: * My credit card statement should have links to the merchant, the address, a list of the things I bought, a link to the returns process, etc. * Why can't my statement also have the total number of calories I've purchased in the last month, or grams of carbon in fuel I've put in the truck? * Why can't I use my mastercard to pay another mastercard user directly? * Why hasn't mastercard produced a '2 factor' for card payments rather than forcing every bank to implement their own? * Why can't I buy a dual Mastercard/Visa/Other card, which works with merchants who are picky and will only accept one or the other? * Why are we still issuing bits of plastic in the digital age anyway? * Why don't the cards have a microusb plug on one edge, or NFC to plug into a phone or computer to log in, to act as an identity card, to authenticate or make payments, or anything else other companies issue smartcards for? * Why don't mastercard work with mobile providers to issue cards that you can spend your pay-as-you-go balance with, turning a mobile provider into a bank. It seems mastercards business is 'stuck', and there are opportunities to innovate all around them, but they won't.
  - kortilla 7y ago
    >Why are we still issuing bits of plastic in the digital age anyway? Phones die. If you don’t care, I suggest you look into Apple Pay or something similar. You’ll find many merchants that you won’t be able to pay.
    - matthewmacleod 7y ago
      Maybe in the US; here in the UK, contactless payment is now close to universal for any vendor who accepts cards. This suggests it’s eminently possible.
    - tluyben2 7y ago
      In the west, but in China you pay everything with wechat or alipay and similar solutions are popping up in Asia in every country with success. But in China it is accepted everywhere. And when it is not it still is because usually the shop cashiers will use their own phone to complete the transaction.
  - bonaldi 7y ago
    Half of what you "want" is a quasi-dystopian nightmare.
    - arkades 7y ago
      Don’t be such a pessimist. There’s nothing “quasi” about it.
    - D-Coder 7y ago
      If this is what he wants for himself, it's not dystopian, it's personal info.
  - zelon88 7y ago
    Why would you want Target telling Mastercard that you bought Spongebob underwear and 1,968 calories worth of freeze pops?
    - xyzzy_plugh 7y ago
      Why do you believe this isn't already the case?
jasonjei 7y ago
That’s a great point. In spite of technical changes such as Apple Pay/Android Pay, chip cards, and so on, I can never recall an instance when I was unable to use a credit card globally. It seems most failures to running a credit card are pretty localized, too, and never at the interchange level...
- raverbashing 7y ago
  I suspect there's a lot of caching involved as well. When making a purchase you probably don't need all the info to go all the way to the bank and back. Stolen/lost cards can simply be flagged in a master db/table and can be rejected quickly for example.
wallflower 7y ago
Mainframes. > Visa, for example, uses the mainframe to process billions of credit and debit card payments every year. > According to some estimates, up to $3 trillion in daily commerce flows through mainframes. https://www.share.org/blog/mainframe-matters-how-mainframes-keep-the-financial-industry-up-and-running https://www.share.org/blog/mainframe-matters-how-mainframes-... https://blog.syncsort.com/2018/06/mainframe/9-mainframe-statistics/ https://blog.syncsort.com/2018/06/mainframe/9-mainframe-stat... https://www.ibm.com/it-infrastructure/servers/mainframes https://www.ibm.com/it-infrastructure/servers/mainframes
- andrewg 7y ago
  Specifically they run IBM zTPF on their mainframes, which is also used by airlines. Some installations have uptimes measured in decades. https://www.ibm.com/it-infrastructure/z/transaction-processing-facility https://www.ibm.com/it-infrastructure/z/transaction-processi...
  - wereHamster 7y ago
    It's rarely the hardware that fails, it's more often due to software. So I wonder what the software that's running on mainframes does differently than the software that's written for ordinary computers.
    - southerndrift 7y ago
      May it's not what it does but that it is written in COBOL?
    - Terretta 7y ago
      > So I wonder what the software that's running on mainframes does differently than the software that's written for ordinary computers. Not change.
londons_explore 7y ago
Both have had plenty of downtime: https://www.ft.com/content/1fd2a066-860f-11e8-a29d-73e3d454535d https://www.ft.com/content/1fd2a066-860f-11e8-a29d-73e3d4545... I suspect they sometimes 'fail open' (ie. allow all payments through and reconcile later) too.
- segmondy 7y ago
  No they don't. If I sell a diamond ring for $20k and Visa passes that the card is valid but it's not. The buyer just got a free $20k ring. Card could be expired, cancelled, or not have enough balance. The merchant must be paid, their processor has to pay them, the bank that issued the card must provide that credit until the card holder pays it back. If the card was expired or a card with a $10 balance. The card holder will refuse, it get's really mess fast. Visa is not willing to assume such risk, they simply provide a network. If it goes down, it goes down and everyone on their network is screwed. When dispute is at play, it's a hot potato that no one wants to hold between the merchant, processor, ISO, sales agent & bank. The card networks have been smart to eliminate themselves from that step.
  - nulbyte 7y ago
    Actually, merchants, acquirers, and issuers can do this. It happens sometimes. When it happens, other limits come into play downstream, such as terminal configuration. There are separate offline limits, and it is unlikely they would set it that high, so a $20,000 offline charge would be declined, even if a lesser charge would be approved, stored, and processed later. As for expired cards, the expiration date is on the mag stripe and in the chip, so the transaction could be rejected at any point, even offline at the terminal. It's also printed on the card so it might be rejected before it's even swiped or dipped.
    - lathiat 7y ago
      It's even done regularly in some cases, various US airlines take "offline" card transactions and process them later for food & drinks. There are of course limits on how big an offline transaction you can take intentionally or unintentionally and probably the airline wears the full cost of failed transactions in this case. Doesn't matter that much when its for a $5 coffee, plus they know who you were if they really wanted to chase it down. And as mentioned electronic terminals absolutely have automatic offline modes also.
segmondy 7y ago
They are not, they go down quite often. lol.

Thaxll 7y ago

They're also much simpler and the system behind payment solution didn't changed that much in the last 10 years.

londons_explore 7y ago
They are also miles behind on features customers want... For example: * My credit card statement should have links to the merchant, the address, a list of the things I bought, a link to the returns process, etc. * Why can't my statement also have the total number of calories I've purchased in the last month, or grams of carbon in fuel I've put in the truck? * Why can't I use my mastercard to pay another mastercard user directly? * Why hasn't mastercard produced a '2 factor' for card payments rather than forcing every bank to implement their own? * Why can't I buy a dual Mastercard/Visa/Other card, which works with merchants who are picky and will only accept one or the other? * Why are we still issuing bits of plastic in the digital age anyway? * Why don't the cards have a microusb plug on one edge, or NFC to plug into a phone or computer to log in, to act as an identity card, to authenticate or make payments, or anything else other companies issue smartcards for? * Why don't mastercard work with mobile providers to issue cards that you can spend your pay-as-you-go balance with, turning a mobile provider into a bank. It seems mastercards business is 'stuck', and there are opportunities to innovate all around them, but they won't.
- kortilla 7y ago
  >Why are we still issuing bits of plastic in the digital age anyway? Phones die. If you don’t care, I suggest you look into Apple Pay or something similar. You’ll find many merchants that you won’t be able to pay.
  - matthewmacleod 7y ago
    Maybe in the US; here in the UK, contactless payment is now close to universal for any vendor who accepts cards. This suggests it’s eminently possible.
  - tluyben2 7y ago
    In the west, but in China you pay everything with wechat or alipay and similar solutions are popping up in Asia in every country with success. But in China it is accepted everywhere. And when it is not it still is because usually the shop cashiers will use their own phone to complete the transaction.
- bonaldi 7y ago
  Half of what you "want" is a quasi-dystopian nightmare.
  - arkades 7y ago
    Don’t be such a pessimist. There’s nothing “quasi” about it.
  - D-Coder 7y ago
    If this is what he wants for himself, it's not dystopian, it's personal info.
- zelon88 7y ago
  Why would you want Target telling Mastercard that you bought Spongebob underwear and 1,968 calories worth of freeze pops?
  - xyzzy_plugh 7y ago
    Why do you believe this isn't already the case?

jasonjei 7y ago

That’s a great point. In spite of technical changes such as Apple Pay/Android Pay, chip cards, and so on, I can never recall an instance when I was unable to use a credit card globally. It seems most failures to running a credit card are pretty localized, too, and never at the interchange level...

raverbashing 7y ago
I suspect there's a lot of caching involved as well. When making a purchase you probably don't need all the info to go all the way to the bank and back. Stolen/lost cards can simply be flagged in a master db/table and can be rejected quickly for example.

wallflower 7y ago

Mainframes. > Visa, for example, uses the mainframe to process billions of credit and debit card payments every year. > According to some estimates, up to $3 trillion in daily commerce flows through mainframes. https://www.share.org/blog/mainframe-matters-how-mainframes-keep-the-financial-industry-up-and-running https://www.share.org/blog/mainframe-matters-how-mainframes-... https://blog.syncsort.com/2018/06/mainframe/9-mainframe-statistics/ https://blog.syncsort.com/2018/06/mainframe/9-mainframe-stat... https://www.ibm.com/it-infrastructure/servers/mainframes https://www.ibm.com/it-infrastructure/servers/mainframes

andrewg 7y ago
Specifically they run IBM zTPF on their mainframes, which is also used by airlines. Some installations have uptimes measured in decades. https://www.ibm.com/it-infrastructure/z/transaction-processing-facility https://www.ibm.com/it-infrastructure/z/transaction-processi...
- wereHamster 7y ago
  It's rarely the hardware that fails, it's more often due to software. So I wonder what the software that's running on mainframes does differently than the software that's written for ordinary computers.
  - southerndrift 7y ago
    May it's not what it does but that it is written in COBOL?
  - Terretta 7y ago
    > So I wonder what the software that's running on mainframes does differently than the software that's written for ordinary computers. Not change.

londons_explore 7y ago

Both have had plenty of downtime: https://www.ft.com/content/1fd2a066-860f-11e8-a29d-73e3d454535d https://www.ft.com/content/1fd2a066-860f-11e8-a29d-73e3d4545... I suspect they sometimes 'fail open' (ie. allow all payments through and reconcile later) too.

segmondy 7y ago
No they don't. If I sell a diamond ring for $20k and Visa passes that the card is valid but it's not. The buyer just got a free $20k ring. Card could be expired, cancelled, or not have enough balance. The merchant must be paid, their processor has to pay them, the bank that issued the card must provide that credit until the card holder pays it back. If the card was expired or a card with a $10 balance. The card holder will refuse, it get's really mess fast. Visa is not willing to assume such risk, they simply provide a network. If it goes down, it goes down and everyone on their network is screwed. When dispute is at play, it's a hot potato that no one wants to hold between the merchant, processor, ISO, sales agent & bank. The card networks have been smart to eliminate themselves from that step.
- nulbyte 7y ago
  Actually, merchants, acquirers, and issuers can do this. It happens sometimes. When it happens, other limits come into play downstream, such as terminal configuration. There are separate offline limits, and it is unlikely they would set it that high, so a $20,000 offline charge would be declined, even if a lesser charge would be approved, stored, and processed later. As for expired cards, the expiration date is on the mag stripe and in the chip, so the transaction could be rejected at any point, even offline at the terminal. It's also printed on the card so it might be rejected before it's even swiped or dipped.
  - lathiat 7y ago
    It's even done regularly in some cases, various US airlines take "offline" card transactions and process them later for food & drinks. There are of course limits on how big an offline transaction you can take intentionally or unintentionally and probably the airline wears the full cost of failed transactions in this case. Doesn't matter that much when its for a $5 coffee, plus they know who you were if they really wanted to chase it down. And as mentioned electronic terminals absolutely have automatic offline modes also.

segmondy 7y ago

They are not, they go down quite often. lol.