10 ms·

Yeah I'm renting a house in central NC and May-September our power bill skyrockets from AC. The windows are not insulated at all and we have a lot of them. Ev

Yeah I'm renting a house in central NC and May-September our power bill skyrockets from AC. The windows are not insulated at all and we have a lot of them. Even the floors, walls, and ceilings leak heat like crazy, you can feel it just putting your hand close to the wall or ceiling. We run AC to get it down to 76F and it's still crazy expensive and using a lot of unnecessary power. We need to encourage insulation, especially of windows. My parents had a lot of big windows too and recently have started upgrading them to insulated windows and it makes a huge difference. The US needs to heavily encourage these sorts of improvements to buildings, it's good for everyone.

jstsch 7y ago
I was wondering about this the other day. In NL, insulation has been part of the building code for ages. With stronger requirements every decade or so. Insulated windows have been required since the 80ies for new houses. Now it’s triple pane krypton glass. Is this not the case for the USA.
- opencl 7y ago
  The US has insulation requirements, it varies a lot state to state but new housing generally has at least decent-ish insulation. The main issue is that there is a lot of very old housing stock in the US. As of 2015 the median house was 37 years old and 40% were over 45 years old. In the area I live the vast majority of the houses were built in the 40s or 50s, though most people have done some amount of insulation retrofitting. http://eyeonhousing.org/2015/08/the-aging-housing-stock-2/ http://eyeonhousing.org/2015/08/the-aging-housing-stock-2/
  - closeparen 7y ago
    Prewar houses in cold climates are insulated just fine. It seems a lot of 1980s and 1990s structures in San Francisco basically cardboard boxes, because with mild weather you get away with it.
asdkhadsj 7y ago
> The US needs to heavily encourage these sorts of improvements to buildings, it's good for everyone. Is it though? I imagine your landlord doesn't think it's good for them. It's not bad for them, but why would they spend hundreds or thousands of dollars improving your apartments insulation when it costs them nothing to keep the poor thermal in place. I too lived in rentals that had terrible thermal protection. It was awful to heat and cool. Yet, my landlords wouldn't have spent a dime to improve that. Not sure what can be done here, but with seemingly more and more homes becoming rentals this perhaps needs a solution.
- mixmastamyk 7y ago
  They are upgrading the windows in this neighborhood. First they kick you out, do the work, then charge the next tenant (rent + 1000).
- the8472 7y ago
  > Not sure what can be done here Tax based on efficiency. Tie permits for building renovation to insulation upgrades.
- Chirael 7y ago
  If two or three tenants in a row move out and cite sky high power costs due to poor insulation as the reason, the landlord will notice and do something about it. One tenant is a fluke, several all saying the same thing over a few years is a problem that will get dealt with. Nothing costs a landlord money like high turnover. But departing tenants DO need to communicate that as the issue, otherwise the landlord would never really know since s/he isn’t the one paying the bill.
  - gregable 7y ago
    Do tenants really decide like that? Moving is costly and insulation is hard to judge on a tour?
    - Dumblydorr 7y ago
      In providence RI my friends and I rented a 3 BR 2nd floor of a duplex. The heating cost was insanity. The rent itself was 1350 per month and the oil heating in the winter cost us 3600, which is 100 per month added onto my 450 share for the entire year. I left that year, my roomies stayed and begged the landlord to switch, the oil heater was wicked old and inefficient. He said no, he didn't care. They moved due to that. So yes, it did cost him, probly the months worth of rent that he lost due to the realtors finders fee.
anonuser123456 7y ago
You are probably conflating window insulation with window air leaks. The best windows generally available are R-5 at best on initial installation and degrade over time as The argon leaks. They are also extremely expensive. Not a very good investment. But most energy losses in older buildings are from leaking air not thermal conductance. So upgrading to R-1 but sealed and we'll installed Windows can do a lot without having to spend 50k. Also, you can use thermal shutters that have MUCH higher R-value than even top of the line windows.
- gdubs 7y ago
  We have an old house and the energy auditor was selling us hard on attic air sealing and insulation. Claim was that windows weren’t gonna make as big of an impact given the stack effect. (They’re also historic “wavy glass” windows, and we’d like to keep them.) Do you think attic air sealing, or more effective attic insulation would have a big impact? It does feel like the roof turns into a radiant heater in the summer. (The only energy auditor available in the area is also in the business of providing the insulation, which is why I’m skeptical.)
  - newnewpdro 7y ago
    I'm not an expert but based on my personal research adding a ridge vent to the roof and getting a convection current drawing fresh air from the soffits through the attic and out the ridge supposedly makes a big difference. When you've got it all sealed up you've got a solar oven. You'll still want insulation on the floor of the attic space, and seal off the living space from the attic. From what I gather the main complication is keeping critters out while opening your attic to a substantial flow of fresh air. A pile of rockwool insulation sounds like a hell of a home for many small mammals, and bees can get past all but the finest of screen meshes. It seems feasible to diligently install screens on all the vents but it'll be a maintenance burden to keep them intact as the years go by.
  - sjg007 7y ago
    It'll help. Ask for some customer references, maybe someone with a similar house. But it could also cause other problems. Older houses are naturally leaky and that helps keep them manage mold/mildew and radon. Your water heater and furnace could also backdraft. So that's something to consider. Modern houses are basically sealed inside a plastic bag so you need active mechanical ventilation to keep things in order. If you have a really old house make sure you don't have vermiculite insulation which might make things way more expensive cause it likely has asbestos in it. Apart from that you can also DIY it but it's messy. Your state may offer incentives for doing it too. https://www.energystar.gov/campaign/seal_insulate/attic_air_sealing_project https://www.energystar.gov/campaign/seal_insulate/attic_air_...
pstrateman 7y ago
Why would the landlord spend money on insulation to save you money on your electric bill? There's the problem.
- oblio 7y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Performance_Certificate_(United_Kingdom) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Performance_Certifica... The article says UK but it's actually EU. As with most things, make it a legal requirement.
- akie 7y ago
  The government should enforce energy efficient building standards and tax those who don’t comply.
  - vinceguidry 7y ago
    New building standards don't affect existing buildings. And they're not optional, so the tax isn't an option for non-compliance. Forcing existing landlords to retrofit to new building standards isn't even done for safety purposes, so it certainly isn't going to happen for energy efficiency. And calling for this to now be a thing, well, I can't think of a better way to get entrenched interests to suddenly lobby hard against every single new building reg.
    - dragonwriter 7y ago
      > New building standards don't affect existing buildings. No, but habitability standards do (or, technically, in general affect the legal ability to charge rent for units in existing buildings.) So, user those of your concern is recalcitrant landlords. > Forcing existing landlords to retrofit to new building standards isn't even done for safety purposes Yes, this is done (not always, but it does happen), through habitability standards beifn updated along with building standards (or referencing them.)
      - vinceguidry 7y ago
amluto 7y ago
If the window is in the sun, your major problem is unlikely to be window insulation. It’s solar heat gain. Sunlight carries a lot of power — about 1 kW per square meter. If your window lets all of that power in, then your AC needs to consume a couple hundred watts to send it back out again. What you need are windows with low solar heat gain coefficients (SHGC), which is mostly independent of insulation. Or you can get window treatments that are shiny on the side facing the window.
- newnewpdro 7y ago
  > What you need are windows with low solar heat gain coefficients (SHGC), which is mostly independent of insulation. Or you can get window treatments that are shiny on the side facing the window. In the desert by me people use substantial awnings on the exterior putting the windows in shade. It's a lot cheaper than fancy window treatments and in my experience far more effective. Provides more space to mount solar panels too.
  - driverdan 7y ago
    Tint is cheap and requires little to no maintenance. I can't see how awnings would cost less. That said, awnings are probably more efficient.
    - NickNameNick 7y ago
      The problem with window tint is that it's 'on' all the time. A well designed awning lets in more light in winter, giving you solar gain when you want it, but provides extra shade in summer.
- JustSomeNobody 7y ago
  I have blackout curtains in my office covering two south facing windows (in FL). They block a good bit of heat, but it still gets warm. I mostly just wear shorts and deal with it as I really don't want to run the AC down too low (keep it at 80 while I'm home alone; 76 when the family gets home).
dmix 7y ago
I have the opposite problem living really high up in a condo. The heat from units below us travel upwards and in the summer I can open the door and get free cooling effect.
mattferderer 7y ago
About a decade ago the US tax code gave rebates for improving homes to be more energy efficient. I think this started in Bush & went through Obama. I know a lot of people who upgraded windows & insulation. Many also did geothermal heating. I've heard from some trades people a lot of negatives about this one though.
cosmodisk 7y ago
I come from a country where climate is very similar to what Chicago has,so to read that people use AC for heating is quite fascinating! I agree that houses shouldn't be built like in "The Three Little Pigs"...
- st1ck 7y ago
  AC (and heat pumps in general) is great for heating, it can be way more power efficient than anything else. I mean, in theory, its efficiency can be way higher than 100%. But that's only when it's not too cold outside (I guess, at least above zero). You can consider using it in spring & autumn periods.
st1ck 7y ago
For me personally, 76°F (24.4°C) is kinda cold. I'd turn it up to 86°F (30°C) and make use of fans (or just use only fans, no AC). Probably, better to transition slowly, like 1° a day. Some people, of course, are less tolerant to heat, but I don't think I'm far from average. Just make sure you are dressed as light (or scanty) as possible.

jstsch 7y ago

I was wondering about this the other day. In NL, insulation has been part of the building code for ages. With stronger requirements every decade or so. Insulated windows have been required since the 80ies for new houses. Now it’s triple pane krypton glass. Is this not the case for the USA.

opencl 7y ago
The US has insulation requirements, it varies a lot state to state but new housing generally has at least decent-ish insulation. The main issue is that there is a lot of very old housing stock in the US. As of 2015 the median house was 37 years old and 40% were over 45 years old. In the area I live the vast majority of the houses were built in the 40s or 50s, though most people have done some amount of insulation retrofitting. http://eyeonhousing.org/2015/08/the-aging-housing-stock-2/ http://eyeonhousing.org/2015/08/the-aging-housing-stock-2/
- closeparen 7y ago
  Prewar houses in cold climates are insulated just fine. It seems a lot of 1980s and 1990s structures in San Francisco basically cardboard boxes, because with mild weather you get away with it.

asdkhadsj 7y ago

> The US needs to heavily encourage these sorts of improvements to buildings, it's good for everyone. Is it though? I imagine your landlord doesn't think it's good for them. It's not bad for them, but why would they spend hundreds or thousands of dollars improving your apartments insulation when it costs them nothing to keep the poor thermal in place. I too lived in rentals that had terrible thermal protection. It was awful to heat and cool. Yet, my landlords wouldn't have spent a dime to improve that. Not sure what can be done here, but with seemingly more and more homes becoming rentals this perhaps needs a solution.

mixmastamyk 7y ago
They are upgrading the windows in this neighborhood. First they kick you out, do the work, then charge the next tenant (rent + 1000).
the8472 7y ago
> Not sure what can be done here Tax based on efficiency. Tie permits for building renovation to insulation upgrades.
Chirael 7y ago
If two or three tenants in a row move out and cite sky high power costs due to poor insulation as the reason, the landlord will notice and do something about it. One tenant is a fluke, several all saying the same thing over a few years is a problem that will get dealt with. Nothing costs a landlord money like high turnover. But departing tenants DO need to communicate that as the issue, otherwise the landlord would never really know since s/he isn’t the one paying the bill.
- gregable 7y ago
  Do tenants really decide like that? Moving is costly and insulation is hard to judge on a tour?
  - Dumblydorr 7y ago
    In providence RI my friends and I rented a 3 BR 2nd floor of a duplex. The heating cost was insanity. The rent itself was 1350 per month and the oil heating in the winter cost us 3600, which is 100 per month added onto my 450 share for the entire year. I left that year, my roomies stayed and begged the landlord to switch, the oil heater was wicked old and inefficient. He said no, he didn't care. They moved due to that. So yes, it did cost him, probly the months worth of rent that he lost due to the realtors finders fee.

anonuser123456 7y ago

You are probably conflating window insulation with window air leaks. The best windows generally available are R-5 at best on initial installation and degrade over time as The argon leaks. They are also extremely expensive. Not a very good investment. But most energy losses in older buildings are from leaking air not thermal conductance. So upgrading to R-1 but sealed and we'll installed Windows can do a lot without having to spend 50k. Also, you can use thermal shutters that have MUCH higher R-value than even top of the line windows.

gdubs 7y ago
We have an old house and the energy auditor was selling us hard on attic air sealing and insulation. Claim was that windows weren’t gonna make as big of an impact given the stack effect. (They’re also historic “wavy glass” windows, and we’d like to keep them.) Do you think attic air sealing, or more effective attic insulation would have a big impact? It does feel like the roof turns into a radiant heater in the summer. (The only energy auditor available in the area is also in the business of providing the insulation, which is why I’m skeptical.)
- newnewpdro 7y ago
  I'm not an expert but based on my personal research adding a ridge vent to the roof and getting a convection current drawing fresh air from the soffits through the attic and out the ridge supposedly makes a big difference. When you've got it all sealed up you've got a solar oven. You'll still want insulation on the floor of the attic space, and seal off the living space from the attic. From what I gather the main complication is keeping critters out while opening your attic to a substantial flow of fresh air. A pile of rockwool insulation sounds like a hell of a home for many small mammals, and bees can get past all but the finest of screen meshes. It seems feasible to diligently install screens on all the vents but it'll be a maintenance burden to keep them intact as the years go by.
- sjg007 7y ago
  It'll help. Ask for some customer references, maybe someone with a similar house. But it could also cause other problems. Older houses are naturally leaky and that helps keep them manage mold/mildew and radon. Your water heater and furnace could also backdraft. So that's something to consider. Modern houses are basically sealed inside a plastic bag so you need active mechanical ventilation to keep things in order. If you have a really old house make sure you don't have vermiculite insulation which might make things way more expensive cause it likely has asbestos in it. Apart from that you can also DIY it but it's messy. Your state may offer incentives for doing it too. https://www.energystar.gov/campaign/seal_insulate/attic_air_sealing_project https://www.energystar.gov/campaign/seal_insulate/attic_air_...

pstrateman 7y ago

Why would the landlord spend money on insulation to save you money on your electric bill? There's the problem.

oblio 7y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Performance_Certificate_(United_Kingdom) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Performance_Certifica... The article says UK but it's actually EU. As with most things, make it a legal requirement.
akie 7y ago
The government should enforce energy efficient building standards and tax those who don’t comply.
- vinceguidry 7y ago
  New building standards don't affect existing buildings. And they're not optional, so the tax isn't an option for non-compliance. Forcing existing landlords to retrofit to new building standards isn't even done for safety purposes, so it certainly isn't going to happen for energy efficiency. And calling for this to now be a thing, well, I can't think of a better way to get entrenched interests to suddenly lobby hard against every single new building reg.
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    > New building standards don't affect existing buildings. No, but habitability standards do (or, technically, in general affect the legal ability to charge rent for units in existing buildings.) So, user those of your concern is recalcitrant landlords. > Forcing existing landlords to retrofit to new building standards isn't even done for safety purposes Yes, this is done (not always, but it does happen), through habitability standards beifn updated along with building standards (or referencing them.)
    - vinceguidry 7y ago

amluto 7y ago

If the window is in the sun, your major problem is unlikely to be window insulation. It’s solar heat gain. Sunlight carries a lot of power — about 1 kW per square meter. If your window lets all of that power in, then your AC needs to consume a couple hundred watts to send it back out again. What you need are windows with low solar heat gain coefficients (SHGC), which is mostly independent of insulation. Or you can get window treatments that are shiny on the side facing the window.

newnewpdro 7y ago
> What you need are windows with low solar heat gain coefficients (SHGC), which is mostly independent of insulation. Or you can get window treatments that are shiny on the side facing the window. In the desert by me people use substantial awnings on the exterior putting the windows in shade. It's a lot cheaper than fancy window treatments and in my experience far more effective. Provides more space to mount solar panels too.
- driverdan 7y ago
  Tint is cheap and requires little to no maintenance. I can't see how awnings would cost less. That said, awnings are probably more efficient.
  - NickNameNick 7y ago
    The problem with window tint is that it's 'on' all the time. A well designed awning lets in more light in winter, giving you solar gain when you want it, but provides extra shade in summer.
JustSomeNobody 7y ago
I have blackout curtains in my office covering two south facing windows (in FL). They block a good bit of heat, but it still gets warm. I mostly just wear shorts and deal with it as I really don't want to run the AC down too low (keep it at 80 while I'm home alone; 76 when the family gets home).

dmix 7y ago

I have the opposite problem living really high up in a condo. The heat from units below us travel upwards and in the summer I can open the door and get free cooling effect.

mattferderer 7y ago

About a decade ago the US tax code gave rebates for improving homes to be more energy efficient. I think this started in Bush & went through Obama. I know a lot of people who upgraded windows & insulation. Many also did geothermal heating. I've heard from some trades people a lot of negatives about this one though.

cosmodisk 7y ago

I come from a country where climate is very similar to what Chicago has,so to read that people use AC for heating is quite fascinating! I agree that houses shouldn't be built like in "The Three Little Pigs"...

st1ck 7y ago
AC (and heat pumps in general) is great for heating, it can be way more power efficient than anything else. I mean, in theory, its efficiency can be way higher than 100%. But that's only when it's not too cold outside (I guess, at least above zero). You can consider using it in spring & autumn periods.

st1ck 7y ago

For me personally, 76°F (24.4°C) is kinda cold. I'd turn it up to 86°F (30°C) and make use of fans (or just use only fans, no AC). Probably, better to transition slowly, like 1° a day. Some people, of course, are less tolerant to heat, but I don't think I'm far from average. Just make sure you are dressed as light (or scanty) as possible.