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I'm getting nauseous in more than one way just reading this. How do people living in a place like that not look inwards and wonder at what turn they committed
by chmod775 7y ago
I'm getting nauseous in more than one way just reading this.
How do people living in a place like that not look inwards and wonder at what turn they committed a colossal fuckup that got them where they are now?
Your post sounds like fiction to anyone living in civilized conditions, but I don't doubt you are telling the truth (even if you are exaggerating).
- derefr 7y agoThe “how” is that places like this (Seattle, SF, Vancouver BC) have very good municipal support for the homeless, and have pretty good welfare laws at the state level, and have climates that won’t kill you if you sit outside all day. So homeless people from everywhere else in the country gravitate to these places. These cities don’t have a municipal homeless problem; they’re sacrificial goats for entire nations’ homeless problems.
- DanBC 7y agoThe support clearly isn't that good, because places with actually good support don't have these problems.
- cpuguy83 7y agoThe support is great, as I understand it anyway, unless you are addicted to drugs. The places for the homeless to go to do not accept people with drugs, which seems reasonable but then you create this situation with lots of addicts on the streets not getting the help they really need.
- chaostheory 7y agoWhich places? Unfortunately in the US we have decent homelessness support, but we have extremely poor or non-existent mental health support which is what this problem really is
- DanBC 7y agoI don't understand how people can say the support is good if it does not address mental illness nor substance misuse. That's not good support, it's hopelessly inadequate.
- kamarg 7y agoIf you are homeless but able to contribute to the economy if you weren't homeless the programs are very good. If even after getting off the streets, you still require additional help, the support available to you is significantly less good. Put another way, if it was likely you could get yourself out of the homeless situation there's plenty of support in place for you. If you require help, there's little that is in place. So, whether the support is good depends almost entirely on what type of homeless you are. It can be good for some while being abysmal for others.
- chaostheory 7y agoBecause being homeless does not mean that you are suffering from mental issues. It's also much harder to address the real problem of not addressing mental health, when you lump it all into the same category of homelessness. I know it first hand because I used to be homeless (but not "visible homeless") at one point.
- sgift 7y ago> Because being homeless does not mean that you are suffering from mental issues. A relevant part of them do, or we wouldn't have this discussion. That all sounds like "we have good help systems for some homeless" at most, which then somehow gets generalized into "we have good help systems for homeless" when this obviously isn't the case for a part of them.
- drspacemonkey 7y agoThe support is pretty good in Vancouver, but there's two big compounding problems. 1 - drugs, which is a massive complication modifier 2 - capacity, which is stressed a LOT by other areas of the country. For example, other provinces have a policy of buying one-way bus tickets to Vancouver for any homeless person who asks (or is slyly convinced to leave). Vancouver can't do anything to stop it, for good reason - freedom of movement within the country is a guaranteed legal right.
- hackermailman 7y agoAlso non returnable warrants, you get pinched for something in another province like theft or drug crimes in Alberta or elsewhere, flee to another province like BC to avoid jail and police don't want to pay to send you back. Then you end up a homeless criminal in the downtown eastside of Vancouver.
- DoreenMichele 7y agoGood support for the homeless tends to attract more homeless to big cities. See The Shirky Principle. Places that don't have such problems have good support for human beings generally, not (just) good support for the homeless in specific.
- neonate 7y agoIf you don't mind, I'd be curious to hear your take on the controversy around whether the west-coast homelessness problem is aggravated by people moving there from other places with colder climates and less 'support'. I'd also be curious to hear what you think about the degree to which the worst of this is a drug abuse problem vs. something else.
- DoreenMichele 7y agoStudies show that most homeless are "locals," but some percentage do travel to more desirable areas, plus some towns and other institutions will just give a homeless person a one way ticket to get rid of them. However, I'm skeptical of the usefulness and accuracy of the official data we have on the homeless. Homeless lives are lived largely in secret. They may have no address and no phone. This is a vulnerable population and the system does not serve them well. I imagine even a lot of self-reported data is unreliable because vulnerable people will lie at times to protect themselves. In the US, a lot of homeless data is based on the annual Point In Time count which occurs in late January. I recently tripped across an article that explicitly stated it occurs at that time because it's the coldest part of the year and homeless individuals do their best to seek shelter, if only temporarily. So it seems to me that this count is likely an undercount and it's an undercount entirely on purpose. I participated in planning meetings for the local Point in Time Count last year. I've also seen anonymous questions online from people participating who had concerns about various populations being overlooked by the count, such as post-hurricane victims still living in hotels after their house was destroyed. I traveled to the West Coast while homeless. I intentionally returned to California because the West Coast is better for my health. I then spent about 5.5 years homeless in California before leaving the state to get back into housing someplace cheaper. California is exporting poor people to other states and has been for years. If you are a waitress or trucker or similar, you will be better off elsewhere. But homeless people can end up stuck in place in California. The weather in large parts of California make it fairly tolerable to sleep outside. This can become a recipe for long term homelessness. Data does suggest that California has more homeless who are unsheltered and more chronic, long term homelessness than most places. Off the top of my head, I think California has 8% of the US population and an estimated 25% of our homeless. So either California is incredibly broken or it's a de facto dumping ground for the nation's homeless. I suspect there's some truth to both interpretations. Re drugs: I think generally think drug abuse is usually a symptom of other problems. I'm not someone who believes in the Twelve Step model of addiction. Research and first-hand experience with users suggests that's not an accurate model. The history of Alcoholics Anonymous is that it began with a few hardcore alcoholics whose alcoholism was literally killing them and they still could not stop, so they gave it up to God and that worked. Now, every college student who goes on a bender is at risk of being called an alcoholic and sent to AA. Reality: Older people typically drink less than younger people with absolutely no outside intervention whatsoever. Given that general mental framework, I see our national drug crisis as a statement that there is something very wrong with our overall social fabric. If you fix that, then the drug crisis will die down. It will never go away entirely. There will always be people trying to drown some of their sorrows for one reason or another. But the levels we are seeing speaks to something rotten at the heart of our society. Generally speaking, I think we need single payer national healthcare and we need to fix our housing supply issues. Those two things would go a long way towards restoring a healthy social fabric to the US.
- tehjoker 7y agoIf the support was good the homeless would have... wait for it... houses. Not just in Seattle of course, but everywhere.
- derefr 7y agoI didn't mean "good" in any absolute sense, but rather in comparison to other places in the country. Homeless people are coming to these places to get something they can't get where they are. Maybe it's still not enough, but it's enough that they want it. Also, where I live, at least (Vancouver BC), there is a huge amount of free public housing, constantly being built. There are far fewer visibly-homeless people here now than there were even a few years ago. (Drifters who hang around out on the street during the day because they have nothing better to do, yes; people who wander through alleys every night because they take drugs instead of sleeping at night, sure; but people who just want to sleep, but are forced to do so on the street? Not often seen, any more.) As far as I can tell, in this city, the only people who are still visibly homeless, are people who either are 1. recent-enough arrivals that they haven't bothered to find a shelter, let alone gone through the public-housing application process; or 2. they're people who prefer being homeless. (There is an interesting local phenomenon of aboriginal people taking over the unceded land of one of the city's parks as a pseudo-reservation—translating to "tent city.")
- rdtwo 7y agoNot really the types of people cannot be normally housed. You would need to build specialized housing made out of cleanable and indestructible material. Regular housing would just be damaged at extreme cost to the taxpayers
- sroussey 7y agoHousing has rules which disqualifies many. Drug use, loud noise, bothering neighbors. When you are housed, your neighbors don't move (and you don't often either). This can be a high barrier for some, unfortunately.
- tehjoker 7y agoNbd, at least they won't die of exposure. In any case, many people are "dirty" outside, but when they have stable conditions miraculously get somewhat better.
- zacharycohn 7y agoThis is largely a myth. It's hard to get exact numbers, but from a recent Seattle Times research project...: "To sum it up: There are homeless people who migrate — somewhere around 15 to 20 percent of all homeless people — but there aren’t many who migrate far beyond their home state and region. While research hasn’t definitively answered the question of how many homeless people migrate [here from outside Washington State] just to get help, we know that in King County, 3 percent said they did." https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/homeless/do-homeless-people-come-to-seattle-for-help/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/homeless/do-homele...
- derefr 7y agoI would argue that this does happen in SF specifically. Being a magnet for people with no leg to stand on (whether because of a lack of resources, prejudice, etc.) is San Francisco's whole thing, and has been since the 60s. They wrote songs about it! But okay, in the case of Seattle and Vancouver, maybe the arrivals are not from the opposite side of the country, but there still is a constant influx of people from the region. There are huge native communities in both Washington state and British Columbia, and they're falling apart in about the same way as the rust belt. There's no support system in those small towns with enough resources to help the people who are worst-off, so they have to leave and go somewhere else.
- aeternus 7y agoLook closely at the questions those surveys are asking. "Where were you living at the time you most recently became homeless" isn't the right question as there are temporary housing options (crashing with a friend, living in a vehicle) under which many do not consider themselves homeless. From your own link, only 25% were born / grew up in King county.
- seanmcdirmid 7y agoYes, and if the article is to be believed, they all lived in pioneer square before becoming homeless. A myth myth, I guess.
- dlgeek 7y agoHaven't checked your link, but I know several of the recurring studies for Seattle area ask "where was your last residence" or something. If you dig deeper, a lot of the "locals" are "local" because their last residence was the King County Jail.
- dr_dshiv 7y agoHow does it work in Amsterdam? The climate is similar to Seattle there is good welfare and homeless support. There are literally no homeless people visible on a typical walk through the city. There is freedom of movement in the EU. How does it work? To what extent is homelessness cultural?
- seanmcdirmid 7y agoBingo. Though they try to convince us otherwise, that the homeless are all from Seattle, and when asked where they lived previously, they mostly say Pioneer Square....
- adt2bt 7y agoI'm with you, because I've walked to work right through 3rd and pike/pine and 2nd for ~5 years now every day and, yeah, it's not ideal, but I also don't live out this post-societal collapse fantasy in my head every time I see a needle or crazy person.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- munificent 7y ago> How do people living in a place like that not look inwards and wonder at what turn they committed a colossal fuckup that got them where they are now? Drugs. It's pretty hard to get yourself out of a bad situation when literally the mechanism in your brain that rewards smart behavior has been taken over by heroin and meth. Ultimately, we do what our brains chemically reward us for doing. If heroin feels better than getting off the street and living a decent life then being a homeless drug user is the best achievement you can have. Heroin is fucked up.