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This is also why a lot of spouses pass soon after the other. They lose hope and the reason to get out of bed each morning. I keep assuming that as jobs are aut

This is also why a lot of spouses pass soon after the other. They lose hope and the reason to get out of bed each morning. I keep assuming that as jobs are automated away that we are going to have more people who can do work like visiting elderly people. It also can more than pay for itself by keeping people on their medication regimens and preventing costly hospital visits.

howard941 7y ago
In a perfect world we'd do this and the companions would be well-paid - better paid than they were for the automated jobs in that this new gig can't and shouldn't be automated. In our actual world the funds saved would find their way to the caregivers but when does that ever happen? Some intermediary will be there capturing most of the value, as is the nature of 21st century America. Companions are rarely off the books highly paid no bennies, much more likely off the books underpaid undocumented immigrants or minimum wage workers hardly able to house and feed themselves much less compassionately care for their wards.
anbop 7y ago
Why consume economic output to visit elderly people? Why not create societal structures so that elderly people have relationships like the 90 year old Italian men I see in the local park who smoke and yell at each other all day?
- smegger001 7y ago
  Bluntly put because our society would rather not think about age and dying. So the baby boomers thought they would live forever and built retirement home and assisted living facilities to shove their parents into once they became inconvenient and/or reminders of mortality, now they are the ones being moved in there and all of the support system (social, community, familial levels) of previous generations have almost all gone away. Building new ones would require a change in society and its values and that is a hard slow and expensive thing to change.
jostylr 7y ago
A big hope of the UBI movement is that it will "pay" people to take care of one another in a way that our usual monetary transfer for services rendered simply can't handle well. That is, someone taking care of their parent is not going to be paid for that service in our economy, but with a UBI, it allows one to get that economic support without it being a usual "job". The work of maintaining genuine social relationships is not a source of income, but it is what humans are most designed to do and it would be good to have a mechanism that supports that rather than hinders it. My personal hope is that a UBI leads to real communities where the old and the young have a place in our lives and they stop being seen as problems and as burdens on the middle-aged. Andrew Yang talks about this a lot in terms of his wife taking care of their children, but the idea equally applies to people taking care of anyone else.
- Mediterraneo10 7y ago
  I can think of some reasons that a UBI would not be a panacea here. Firstly, in many cases the younger generation has left their hometown for the big city, but the parents are left behind. Even if they got an UBI, few people are going to want to move back to the “middle of nowhere” to take care of their parents. Secondly, it is now often observed that parents and children, in spite of living under the same roof, are interacting less because the parents are staring at their devices, and children get devices, too. Even if people have the time and money to take care of their parents, do they have the interest in socializing?
  - Retric 7y ago
    UBI would likely go much further living in the country than a major city. Cost of living adjustments are possible, but seem like a terrible idea. I don’t think you need to be constantly talking with an elderly parent for regular visits to be beneficial. A short chat, taking care of a few minor issues, and watching a movie together can make a real quality of life difference. It also demonstrates you still care.
- wolco 7y ago
  UBI will create the conditions for more suicides. Work can create purpose. UBI alone would strengthen the family unit and reduce external relationships.
hn_throwaway_99 7y ago
> I keep assuming that as jobs are automated away that we are going to have more people who can do work like visiting elderly people. You are much more optimistic than I am. On the contrary, I see the shift towards much more automation and "task outsourcing" as a huge factor when it comes to increasing social isolation. We no longer have to lean on our friends, neighbors and even random social acquaintances for help and support, and with all of the various delivery services it's much easier to be a shut-in than in the past. I'd actually be curious to hear from folks younger than 25 or so: When I was a young adult, helping friends move was a common occurrence. Nobody really liked the task of moving, but it really did build a camaraderie and bonding between friends. These days, though, with the ubiquity of things like Task Rabbit and Thumbtack, it's a lot easier to just pay someone a small amount to help out. I'm curious if young adults these days have a lot fewer "help friends move" experiences because of this.
- d-sc 7y ago
  Just graduated college: Even if we could afford to, most of us helped each other move. But you have to value social connections, they don’t come naturally.
DoreenMichele 7y ago
Men are at greater risk than women of dying soon after their spouse. My opinion: This is partly because women do most of "the women's work" of buying groceries, cooking and cleaning. In many older couples, the wife is the one who keeps track of everyone's dietary restrictions. Older men often don't really know how to feed themselves properly. It's not their responsibility to keep track of the myriad types of info involved in that. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/health/the-widowhood-effect-a-spouse-dies-then-soon-another/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/health/the-widowho...
- shultays 7y ago
  Men have lower life expectacies and also generally older than their spouses. Imo that would be a better explanation
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    IIRC, about 90% of the time, when someone's spouse dies, it is a woman's husband. Your stats are an excellent explanation for that statistic. But I can't see how it relates to a gender-based percentage difference in outcomes for the "widowhood effect."
- belorn 7y ago
  The story is about a man who died 48hrs after his wife at age 101. There are not that much "buying groceries, cooking and cleaning" in 48hrs, and not many 101 years old in the grocery store. "Often, it’s unrelated to any accident or cardiovascular incident, but sometimes it is related. That can be part of the stress reaction to grief." "It’s just the difference between men and women and how we’re socialized,” she said. “Connection helps us negotiate old age. Independence does not do us well.” Social relations, social support network, social contact, all of it is connected with stress management. Traditional gender roles where men prioritize work over their social live is correlated with smaller social network. If the goal is to live a long life with as little stress as possible then prioritizing time with children and spending time building social connections is much better than being at work. However not being at work puts men at the lower end of the social ladder which also correlate to a smaller social network and increase stress. Social status is one of the bigger factors when predicting stress in both humans and animals alike.

howard941 7y ago

In a perfect world we'd do this and the companions would be well-paid - better paid than they were for the automated jobs in that this new gig can't and shouldn't be automated. In our actual world the funds saved would find their way to the caregivers but when does that ever happen? Some intermediary will be there capturing most of the value, as is the nature of 21st century America. Companions are rarely off the books highly paid no bennies, much more likely off the books underpaid undocumented immigrants or minimum wage workers hardly able to house and feed themselves much less compassionately care for their wards.

anbop 7y ago

Why consume economic output to visit elderly people? Why not create societal structures so that elderly people have relationships like the 90 year old Italian men I see in the local park who smoke and yell at each other all day?

smegger001 7y ago
Bluntly put because our society would rather not think about age and dying. So the baby boomers thought they would live forever and built retirement home and assisted living facilities to shove their parents into once they became inconvenient and/or reminders of mortality, now they are the ones being moved in there and all of the support system (social, community, familial levels) of previous generations have almost all gone away. Building new ones would require a change in society and its values and that is a hard slow and expensive thing to change.

jostylr 7y ago

A big hope of the UBI movement is that it will "pay" people to take care of one another in a way that our usual monetary transfer for services rendered simply can't handle well. That is, someone taking care of their parent is not going to be paid for that service in our economy, but with a UBI, it allows one to get that economic support without it being a usual "job". The work of maintaining genuine social relationships is not a source of income, but it is what humans are most designed to do and it would be good to have a mechanism that supports that rather than hinders it. My personal hope is that a UBI leads to real communities where the old and the young have a place in our lives and they stop being seen as problems and as burdens on the middle-aged. Andrew Yang talks about this a lot in terms of his wife taking care of their children, but the idea equally applies to people taking care of anyone else.

Mediterraneo10 7y ago
I can think of some reasons that a UBI would not be a panacea here. Firstly, in many cases the younger generation has left their hometown for the big city, but the parents are left behind. Even if they got an UBI, few people are going to want to move back to the “middle of nowhere” to take care of their parents. Secondly, it is now often observed that parents and children, in spite of living under the same roof, are interacting less because the parents are staring at their devices, and children get devices, too. Even if people have the time and money to take care of their parents, do they have the interest in socializing?
- Retric 7y ago
  UBI would likely go much further living in the country than a major city. Cost of living adjustments are possible, but seem like a terrible idea. I don’t think you need to be constantly talking with an elderly parent for regular visits to be beneficial. A short chat, taking care of a few minor issues, and watching a movie together can make a real quality of life difference. It also demonstrates you still care.
wolco 7y ago
UBI will create the conditions for more suicides. Work can create purpose. UBI alone would strengthen the family unit and reduce external relationships.

hn_throwaway_99 7y ago

> I keep assuming that as jobs are automated away that we are going to have more people who can do work like visiting elderly people. You are much more optimistic than I am. On the contrary, I see the shift towards much more automation and "task outsourcing" as a huge factor when it comes to increasing social isolation. We no longer have to lean on our friends, neighbors and even random social acquaintances for help and support, and with all of the various delivery services it's much easier to be a shut-in than in the past. I'd actually be curious to hear from folks younger than 25 or so: When I was a young adult, helping friends move was a common occurrence. Nobody really liked the task of moving, but it really did build a camaraderie and bonding between friends. These days, though, with the ubiquity of things like Task Rabbit and Thumbtack, it's a lot easier to just pay someone a small amount to help out. I'm curious if young adults these days have a lot fewer "help friends move" experiences because of this.

d-sc 7y ago
Just graduated college: Even if we could afford to, most of us helped each other move. But you have to value social connections, they don’t come naturally.

DoreenMichele 7y ago

Men are at greater risk than women of dying soon after their spouse. My opinion: This is partly because women do most of "the women's work" of buying groceries, cooking and cleaning. In many older couples, the wife is the one who keeps track of everyone's dietary restrictions. Older men often don't really know how to feed themselves properly. It's not their responsibility to keep track of the myriad types of info involved in that. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/health/the-widowhood-effect-a-spouse-dies-then-soon-another/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/health/the-widowho...

shultays 7y ago
Men have lower life expectacies and also generally older than their spouses. Imo that would be a better explanation
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  IIRC, about 90% of the time, when someone's spouse dies, it is a woman's husband. Your stats are an excellent explanation for that statistic. But I can't see how it relates to a gender-based percentage difference in outcomes for the "widowhood effect."
belorn 7y ago
The story is about a man who died 48hrs after his wife at age 101. There are not that much "buying groceries, cooking and cleaning" in 48hrs, and not many 101 years old in the grocery store. "Often, it’s unrelated to any accident or cardiovascular incident, but sometimes it is related. That can be part of the stress reaction to grief." "It’s just the difference between men and women and how we’re socialized,” she said. “Connection helps us negotiate old age. Independence does not do us well.” Social relations, social support network, social contact, all of it is connected with stress management. Traditional gender roles where men prioritize work over their social live is correlated with smaller social network. If the goal is to live a long life with as little stress as possible then prioritizing time with children and spending time building social connections is much better than being at work. However not being at work puts men at the lower end of the social ladder which also correlate to a smaller social network and increase stress. Social status is one of the bigger factors when predicting stress in both humans and animals alike.