7 ms·

The world needs topsoil to grow 95% of its food – but it's rapidly disappearing

61 points by mettamage 7y ago

mettamage 7y ago
I just talked to someone who is pretty knowledgeable about issues regarding: Global warming Too few trees reuptaking water Top soil being depleted He said that top soil being depleted is arguably the worst problem of the three. So I simply looked up the first recent article about it and submitted it. I have never heard of this issue and I suspect many of you haven’t either. Disclaimer: the person I talked to has a startup that replants trees in very innovative ways (by using robotics and by employing techniques so that plants can uptake water way deeper from the ground than normally). I am not affiliated with him, I simply met him at a dinner party.
- thatcat 7y ago
  Hey thanks for posting this, can you link that persons startup as well? It sounds interesting.
  - mettamage 7y ago
    One starup he has is called the Land Life Company, I made a submission out of it since I think it's really cool [1]. The other one is called Sensoterra [2]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20421771 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20421771 -- "Our mission is to reforest the world's 2 billion hectares of degraded land" (apologies if you just want the link immediately) [2] https://www.sensoterra.com/ https://www.sensoterra.com/ -- "Wireless soil moisture sensors: make better irrigation decisions for increased yield, with smart soil moisture measurements"
- imtringued 7y ago
  This isn't really new. Top soil in cut down rain forests barely lasts two years of harvest.
- KnightOfWords 7y ago
  I'm certainly no expert, but topsoil depletion scares more than any other environmental problem - it can take a few centuries to replace an inch. Even in the absence of climate change we'd be heading for trouble but increasing temperatures are only going to increase the rate of depletion.
  - collyw 7y ago
    I am no expert either, but you can make compost pretty easily in far less time. Its good for growing plants. Could composting on a large scale be a solution?
    - thatcat 7y ago
      No, compost is just organic material. Good top soil has <10%-20% organics by volume. Also, since the organics in compost will break down over time, they will need to be re-applied. Sand and clay are needed for structure and minerals.
andrei_says_ 7y ago
I’d like to recommend the documentary The Biggest Little Farm. Among other things it illustrates the contrast between industrial farming and its soil treatment (optimized for cost and short term profit) and alternatives (rebuilding rich soil which captures water etc.) It’s incredibly inspiring.
effnorwood 7y ago
It isn’t
growlist 7y ago
> 'If we continue to degrade the soil at the rate we are now, the world could run out of topsoil in about 60 years, according to Maria-Helena Semedo of the UN’s Food and Agriculture Organization.' I don't personally find these type of 'we only have x years to save y!!!!' statements have much impact on me any longer because firstly there seems to be a new one every week, and secondly humanity would act to prevent whatever cataclysm is prophesied (as it is, in fits and starts, with climate change). And on this one in particular, and as I always say when it comes to ecological catastrophes: what about population control?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- pizzazzaro 7y ago
  As for topsoil - it has happened before. Whether we're talking about multi-continental with the bronze age collapse, or we're talking corporate with the US Dust Bowl, people always ask - why didnt anybody do something? You're assuming people knew there was something to do. You're assuming the people with those means were not instead racing to extract the most profit, just like an oil company. One local-scale solution is really quite simple, but doesn't lend itself to industrialized single-crop agriculture. Look for "permaculture food forests" in you favorite search engine. Maybe see the results on youtube. By planting pines with deep taproots, and cutting them off at 6' tall once a year and leaving the yearly growth to rot, you feed the topsoil from above. With the nitrogen-and-phosphorous fixing symbiosis at those same pines' roots, you feed the topsoil from below. This process takes decades, instead of centuries, because it is deliberate. You can get a head start - now - for you and yours.
- pizzazzaro 7y ago
  As for not responding to deadlines for large social issues - when is the last time you saw a tropical depression form over the US? And then b-line to the gulf of Mexico, to become a freaking Hurricane, and then attack the US? Al Gore was right. "I dont respond well to X." "I dont want that to be true." "I dont want to believe that." Facts and Stats dont care about "whether you respond" - you sound just like a MAGA-hat when confronted with the actual damning contents of the Mueller report. Welcome to the fruits of Capitalism - if there is a resource to exploit, we're going to burn through it until its gone. Exponentially fast. Whether that's topsoil for food, or sand for circuit-board silicon, or oil underneath the dirt. Or helium for lasers, balloons, etc... Here we are, able to see it coming. And you're letting the most evolutionarily-throwback-ish part of your brain hijack your thinking. "If I hold still and close my eyes as a little lizard, there wont be a problem." Have some discipline. Maybe show that you've evolved. Maybe, just maybe... Understand that civilization is not as robust as you think. We can all be like Detroit. Coast to coast United Serfs in Abandonia. That was the Great Depression. We can burn out the land. The Bronze Age Collapse, the Dust Bowl, the Mound-builders' corn collapse, the desertification of Egypt's Nile-adjacent farmland. All of these cultures simply disappeared. Human Civilization faces extinction, I want you to understand that your toys will not save us. You children and their children, your entire civilization will suffer and die, and leave nothing living behind but roaches and vines. All because you thought it was fine to say, "fuck it, I got mine."
ckdarby 7y ago
Why would it not be possible to switch to aquaponics? I'm assuming the cost would be greater but this article makes it seem like the world would end and there wouldn't be any way of growing nutritious food.
- pizzazzaro 7y ago
  Aquaponics demands a LOT more resources. Petrochemical fertilizers to dissolve in massive amounts of water... This does not sound like a way to sustain a society into perpetuity.
  - kfk 7y ago
    Do you have any links? Because as far as I can see we can easily grow larvae from biomass (including food scraps) and we can feed larvae to fish. I guess throw some genetic engineering in there and it should work. What am I missing?
    - munchbunny 7y ago
      "I guess throw some genetic engineering in there and it should work." If you are a programmer, you should have felt a pang of sympathy for the biologist who is in the background screaming "that's not how it works".
m0llusk 7y ago
Topsoil loss is a major problem for the environment, but it is worth pointing out that we do not need topsoil to grow food. We have hydroponics and aeroponics and a range of other solutions that do not use land in traditional ways. There is also reason to believe that an increasing fraction of our food will be grown in this way rather than on the land if only because the vast majority of farmable land is already farmed.
- pizzazzaro 7y ago
  Where do you think the plants' nutrients come from in those growing methods? Petrochemical plants also set to run out of resources. You're adorable. Look at permaculture food forests and how they rebuild topsoil. While we still can.
  - pvaldes 7y ago
    > Where do you think the plants' nutrients come from in those growing methods? To answer this question we should look inside ourselves
  - aliswe 7y ago
    That's exceptionally snarky... Btw, are you implying that the aquaponic nutrient additives come from topsoil?
    - pizzazzaro 7y ago
      Mostly? We mine minerals and refine them with: Petrochemical sources. Which, you might also worry about running out of, in about as short order as topsoil. There was another commenter here with more expertise on actually growing things this way - they suggested that leafy greens were the only thing we could grow efficiently with this method. Which does have a certain air of "truthiness" to it.
      - aliswe 7y ago
        Sorry I misinterpreted your post. I'd like to mention again that your "you're adorable" is very patronizing and disrespectful.

61 points by mettamage 7y ago

I just talked to someone who is pretty knowledgeable about issues regarding: Global warming Too few trees reuptaking water Top soil being depleted He said that top soil being depleted is arguably the worst problem of the three. So I simply looked up the first recent article about it and submitted it. I have never heard of this issue and I suspect many of you haven’t either. Disclaimer: the person I talked to has a startup that replants trees in very innovative ways (by using robotics and by employing techniques so that plants can uptake water way deeper from the ground than normally). I am not affiliated with him, I simply met him at a dinner party.

thatcat 7y ago
Hey thanks for posting this, can you link that persons startup as well? It sounds interesting.
- mettamage 7y ago
  One starup he has is called the Land Life Company, I made a submission out of it since I think it's really cool [1]. The other one is called Sensoterra [2]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20421771 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20421771 -- "Our mission is to reforest the world's 2 billion hectares of degraded land" (apologies if you just want the link immediately) [2] https://www.sensoterra.com/ https://www.sensoterra.com/ -- "Wireless soil moisture sensors: make better irrigation decisions for increased yield, with smart soil moisture measurements"
imtringued 7y ago
This isn't really new. Top soil in cut down rain forests barely lasts two years of harvest.
KnightOfWords 7y ago
I'm certainly no expert, but topsoil depletion scares more than any other environmental problem - it can take a few centuries to replace an inch. Even in the absence of climate change we'd be heading for trouble but increasing temperatures are only going to increase the rate of depletion.
- collyw 7y ago
  I am no expert either, but you can make compost pretty easily in far less time. Its good for growing plants. Could composting on a large scale be a solution?
  - thatcat 7y ago
    No, compost is just organic material. Good top soil has <10%-20% organics by volume. Also, since the organics in compost will break down over time, they will need to be re-applied. Sand and clay are needed for structure and minerals.

andrei_says_ 7y ago

I’d like to recommend the documentary The Biggest Little Farm. Among other things it illustrates the contrast between industrial farming and its soil treatment (optimized for cost and short term profit) and alternatives (rebuilding rich soil which captures water etc.) It’s incredibly inspiring.

effnorwood 7y ago

It isn’t

growlist 7y ago

> 'If we continue to degrade the soil at the rate we are now, the world could run out of topsoil in about 60 years, according to Maria-Helena Semedo of the UN’s Food and Agriculture Organization.' I don't personally find these type of 'we only have x years to save y!!!!' statements have much impact on me any longer because firstly there seems to be a new one every week, and secondly humanity would act to prevent whatever cataclysm is prophesied (as it is, in fits and starts, with climate change). And on this one in particular, and as I always say when it comes to ecological catastrophes: what about population control?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
pizzazzaro 7y ago
As for topsoil - it has happened before. Whether we're talking about multi-continental with the bronze age collapse, or we're talking corporate with the US Dust Bowl, people always ask - why didnt anybody do something? You're assuming people knew there was something to do. You're assuming the people with those means were not instead racing to extract the most profit, just like an oil company. One local-scale solution is really quite simple, but doesn't lend itself to industrialized single-crop agriculture. Look for "permaculture food forests" in you favorite search engine. Maybe see the results on youtube. By planting pines with deep taproots, and cutting them off at 6' tall once a year and leaving the yearly growth to rot, you feed the topsoil from above. With the nitrogen-and-phosphorous fixing symbiosis at those same pines' roots, you feed the topsoil from below. This process takes decades, instead of centuries, because it is deliberate. You can get a head start - now - for you and yours.
pizzazzaro 7y ago
As for not responding to deadlines for large social issues - when is the last time you saw a tropical depression form over the US? And then b-line to the gulf of Mexico, to become a freaking Hurricane, and then attack the US? Al Gore was right. "I dont respond well to X." "I dont want that to be true." "I dont want to believe that." Facts and Stats dont care about "whether you respond" - you sound just like a MAGA-hat when confronted with the actual damning contents of the Mueller report. Welcome to the fruits of Capitalism - if there is a resource to exploit, we're going to burn through it until its gone. Exponentially fast. Whether that's topsoil for food, or sand for circuit-board silicon, or oil underneath the dirt. Or helium for lasers, balloons, etc... Here we are, able to see it coming. And you're letting the most evolutionarily-throwback-ish part of your brain hijack your thinking. "If I hold still and close my eyes as a little lizard, there wont be a problem." Have some discipline. Maybe show that you've evolved. Maybe, just maybe... Understand that civilization is not as robust as you think. We can all be like Detroit. Coast to coast United Serfs in Abandonia. That was the Great Depression. We can burn out the land. The Bronze Age Collapse, the Dust Bowl, the Mound-builders' corn collapse, the desertification of Egypt's Nile-adjacent farmland. All of these cultures simply disappeared. Human Civilization faces extinction, I want you to understand that your toys will not save us. You children and their children, your entire civilization will suffer and die, and leave nothing living behind but roaches and vines. All because you thought it was fine to say, "fuck it, I got mine."

ckdarby 7y ago

Why would it not be possible to switch to aquaponics? I'm assuming the cost would be greater but this article makes it seem like the world would end and there wouldn't be any way of growing nutritious food.

pizzazzaro 7y ago
Aquaponics demands a LOT more resources. Petrochemical fertilizers to dissolve in massive amounts of water... This does not sound like a way to sustain a society into perpetuity.
- kfk 7y ago
  Do you have any links? Because as far as I can see we can easily grow larvae from biomass (including food scraps) and we can feed larvae to fish. I guess throw some genetic engineering in there and it should work. What am I missing?
  - munchbunny 7y ago
    "I guess throw some genetic engineering in there and it should work." If you are a programmer, you should have felt a pang of sympathy for the biologist who is in the background screaming "that's not how it works".

m0llusk 7y ago

Topsoil loss is a major problem for the environment, but it is worth pointing out that we do not need topsoil to grow food. We have hydroponics and aeroponics and a range of other solutions that do not use land in traditional ways. There is also reason to believe that an increasing fraction of our food will be grown in this way rather than on the land if only because the vast majority of farmable land is already farmed.

pizzazzaro 7y ago
Where do you think the plants' nutrients come from in those growing methods? Petrochemical plants also set to run out of resources. You're adorable. Look at permaculture food forests and how they rebuild topsoil. While we still can.
- pvaldes 7y ago
  > Where do you think the plants' nutrients come from in those growing methods? To answer this question we should look inside ourselves
- aliswe 7y ago
  That's exceptionally snarky... Btw, are you implying that the aquaponic nutrient additives come from topsoil?
  - pizzazzaro 7y ago
    Mostly? We mine minerals and refine them with: Petrochemical sources. Which, you might also worry about running out of, in about as short order as topsoil. There was another commenter here with more expertise on actually growing things this way - they suggested that leafy greens were the only thing we could grow efficiently with this method. Which does have a certain air of "truthiness" to it.
    - aliswe 7y ago
      Sorry I misinterpreted your post. I'd like to mention again that your "you're adorable" is very patronizing and disrespectful.