6 ms·

I had a realization the last time we had a fire drill: It wasn't scheduled, so when the alarm went off, we all looked at each other for a few moments like "is

I had a realization the last time we had a fire drill: It wasn't scheduled, so when the alarm went off, we all looked at each other for a few moments like "is the siren just on the fritz or should we walk out?" After awhile we decided we'd better get going so we all lazily strolled outside. On the way, I noticed one of my coworkers in a fire marshal uniform, in the corridor, calling out for people to evacuate. I realized this is a perfect way to prevent the bystander effect: just give a random person a "uniform" (a whistle, a badge, a hat, or a vest, anything simple like that works) and tell them that when the alarm goes off, they are responsible for telling people to leave. It's as simple as that. Instead of us staring at each other trying to decide whether the group considers it serious enough to go along with, just having that person singled out as the "official" one was enough to get the momentum going.

ohazi 7y ago
Relatedly, if you ever need to delegate something like a 911 call, you're supposed to single out a person and tell them, specifically "you, go dial 911" rather than shouting "someone call 911!" Apparently this makes it far more likely to actually happen.
- groestl 7y ago
  Also, if possible, touch that person while telling them to call 911 - helps them get moving if they are petrified.
  - technothrasher 7y ago
    Touching somebody while asking them to do something for you works in most situations, not just a traumatic one. It creates a heightened level of intimacy, which makes the other person feel more obligated to help.
    - techdmn 7y ago
      This sets off pretty big alarm bells for me. Touching people is a pretty personal thing, and doing it with ulterior motives seems wrong. P.S. Don't touch me.
      - groestl 7y ago
        Sorry, but I will not ask you should somebody else's life be in danger. Touching, being a personal thing, is intended to take you out of your headspace and place you in the physical world (source: worked as an EMT in the past).
      - dragonwriter 7y ago
        Increasing the likelihood of someone doing exactly what you are asking them to is an overt rather than an ulterior motive of accompanying nonverbal communication. (That said, people do have different sensitivities to touch and this can backfire, but in an emergency situation maximizing the expected results of the request to call aid is going to be the highly favored course of action.)
      - abfan1127 7y ago
        thats the point. It makes a general shout "Call 911" and makes specifically personal, "You, the person I am touching and staring into your eyes, call 911, now!"...
      - esotericn 7y ago
        A life or death situation, and you're worried about someone tapping someone on the shoulder. I'd worry about karma!
      - technothrasher 7y ago
        Touching people is a pretty personal thing Yep, the increased sense of intimacy that can make somebody feel more obligated to you can also make somebody feel uncomfortable and pressured. It's a technique that can definitely backfire. Using it with strangers won't necessarily give you the result you thought it would. However, I suspect in a "call 911" type of situation the other person is already uncomfortable and it's worth psychologically pulling them closer in order to focus their attention.
- agurk 7y ago
  I have also been told in training for these kind of events to also tell that person to come back and tell you once they've done it. Apparently people have a tendency to wander off once they've done their task, leaving you not knowing if it's been completed & when help's arriving.
- bkor 7y ago
  Interestingly the standard procedure in The Netherlands for medical emergencies (the ones where you find someone on the ground) changed to actually calling yourself over asking a random bystander. Aside from calling you should also put the phone on handsfree and lay it next to the person (on the ground). This as 112 (911) asks loads of questions. Age of the person, conscious yes/no, what does the skin look like, feel like, etc. If it's about CPR it'll be way easier of course... but procedure is also to call asap. Meaning right after you find the person on the ground.. not after you checked. I had to call 112 this week. In practice things are often different than any procedure ;)
  - Mordisquitos 7y ago
    >Interestingly the standard procedure in The Netherlands for medical emergencies (the ones where you find someone on the ground) changed to actually calling yourself over asking a random bystander. Aside from calling you should also put the phone on handsfree and lay it next to the person (on the ground). I guess that the "tell a specific person to call 112/999/911" guideline is a leftover from the days where someone would need to physically go and find a wired phone from which to make the call. Nowadays, tending to the victim and making the call are mutually compatible in most situations.
  - diydsp 7y ago
    I find this approach of taking individual responsibility much better than handing over authority to a "person in a uniform" as the GP stated. Sure it's easier to blindly trust the "official" one, but it sets up a disempowering dynamic where the group is clueless and only looking for a charismatic leader to point them in the right direction. For something cut as clearly as a fire alarm, there is no reason why everyone over 10 years old can not respond properly as single unit. > Instead of us staring at each other trying to decide whether the group considers it serious enough to go along with, just having that person singled out as the "official" one was enough to get the momentum going.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - 7y ago
- namdnay 7y ago
  Same thing at work :)
- MS90 7y ago
  I remember this from Boy Scouts. We were taught to pick someone, point straight at them and say "YOU, call 911"
phaemon 7y ago
When I worked support at a university, in the dim and distant past, it was our responsibility to clear the labs if a fire alarm went off. Students did just generally sit there until they were told to move. I think if you have more than a dozen people in your org, it's a good idea to appoint a couple of them (in case one is on vacation/off sick/the arsonist) as fire wardens. Not least you have someone who is actually counting who is there so the fire service can get an idea of who might still be in the building. Of course 99.9% of the time it doesn't matter, but that 0.1% can be very important.
- Izkata 7y ago
  > Students did just generally sit there until they were told to move. In my dorm, the fire alarm reliably went off every week or so. Always a false alarm, so we ended up just ignoring it most of the time. There was even one day where we were eventually told the wiring got messed up from the cold, and it went off several times in a few hours.
Cthulhu_ 7y ago
Yup, this is why you need to appoint fire marshals (and first aid) people at a workspace - you have to tell them that if the alarm goes off, this is their job and responsibility. I mean in theory any alarm should make people panic a bit and start making their way to the exit, but in practice most alarms are false alarms so people don't know if they need to act.
bkor 7y ago
> just give a random person a "uniform" (a whistle, a badge, a hat, or a vest, anything simple like that works) and tell them that when the alarm goes off, they are responsible for telling people to leave. What an absolutely strange procedure! This as a fire marshal is not responsible for getting people out. People themselves are responsible to act. The fire marshal is a backup! Here people (big building, multiple companies, etc) are told when they get hired that it's their responsibility to evacuate when the (standardized across Europe) evacuation sound goes off. Then trained people check floors to double check everyone is out, plus assist anyone having difficulty getting out. Anyone not cooperating will be reported. This all relies on the attitude of the director of each company. Some take safety very seriously, some see it as a waste of time ("nothing will happen").. until eventually something happens.
- gowld 7y ago
  You are conflating the policy with the practice. USA has the same policy.
- vonmoltke 7y ago
  > Here people (big building, multiple companies, etc) are told when they get hired that it's their responsibility to evacuate when the (standardized across Europe) evacuation sound goes off. So it's up to everyone individually to determine if leaving the building is actually safe, and to figure out which emergency exits are safe to use?
michaelt 7y ago
when the alarm went off, we all looked at each other for a few moments [...] After awhile we decided we'd better get going so we all lazily strolled outside. That's normal and expected; in most large buildings in my country, there is a weekly fire alarm test, so of course no-one sprints for the door during the first 60 seconds of hearing the siren. It's not like there's visible smoke or flames. In a way it's even desirable; no-one's getting trampled or crushed when people leave the building at a walking pace.
- komali2 7y ago
  > It's not like there's visible smoke or flames. I get your desire for lack of panic, but the lollygagging around fire alarms terrifies me. If you wait around to see smoke, you are now dramatically more likely to need rescue, or just die. Remember how obnoxious it is when campfire smoke blows in your direction, and how quickly you scramble to get out of the way. How you still have to blink for a couple seconds to clear your vision and the pain. Structure fires are 100x that. The smoke has nowhere to go and collects so, so fast. And it's disgustingly choking compared to a simple wood fire cause of all the plastic and oil smoke involved. It'll fill a room top-down in under a minute, and if it hits you you will be as incapacitated as if you had been hit by pepper spray, with no recourse because it's all around you. Meanwhile even if you do escape every breath is ticking years off your life... Tldr if you hear a fire alarm, stand up and leave without a moment's hesitation. No need to run, just get out quick. Please!!
  - vonmoltke 7y ago
    > Tldr if you hear a fire alarm, stand up and leave without a moment's hesitation. No need to run, just get out quick. Please!! That is specifically counter to the FDNY's guidance on alarms in high rise buildings. You get up, congregate at a stairwell, and wait for instructions from the fire safety director. Simply leaving the building without knowing the nature or location of the emergency is dangerous, and staying where you are may actually be the safest course of action.
    - komali2 7y ago
bradknowles 7y ago
At a previous employer, I went through the "Emergency Responder" training, which meant that I also kept a reflective orange vest at my desk, with an appropriate label on the back. We had fire drills where the list of people who knew about the drill-to-come was intentionally kept to a tiny handful of people, usually just one person per floor. When the alarm went off, it was up to us to go into Fire Marshal mode and direct people to leave through the stairs, stay to the right because the fire department personnel will be coming up the inside, etc.... That process was actually surprisingly effective. I was a good choice because I can be a very loud person, when I want. I have maxxed out my SPL meter at 127dBA, and I've checked into what it would take to make an official go at getting the worlds record for "loudest person".

ohazi 7y ago

Relatedly, if you ever need to delegate something like a 911 call, you're supposed to single out a person and tell them, specifically "you, go dial 911" rather than shouting "someone call 911!" Apparently this makes it far more likely to actually happen.

groestl 7y ago
Also, if possible, touch that person while telling them to call 911 - helps them get moving if they are petrified.
- technothrasher 7y ago
  Touching somebody while asking them to do something for you works in most situations, not just a traumatic one. It creates a heightened level of intimacy, which makes the other person feel more obligated to help.
  - techdmn 7y ago
    This sets off pretty big alarm bells for me. Touching people is a pretty personal thing, and doing it with ulterior motives seems wrong. P.S. Don't touch me.
    - groestl 7y ago
      Sorry, but I will not ask you should somebody else's life be in danger. Touching, being a personal thing, is intended to take you out of your headspace and place you in the physical world (source: worked as an EMT in the past).
    - dragonwriter 7y ago
      Increasing the likelihood of someone doing exactly what you are asking them to is an overt rather than an ulterior motive of accompanying nonverbal communication. (That said, people do have different sensitivities to touch and this can backfire, but in an emergency situation maximizing the expected results of the request to call aid is going to be the highly favored course of action.)
    - abfan1127 7y ago
      thats the point. It makes a general shout "Call 911" and makes specifically personal, "You, the person I am touching and staring into your eyes, call 911, now!"...
    - esotericn 7y ago
      A life or death situation, and you're worried about someone tapping someone on the shoulder. I'd worry about karma!
    - technothrasher 7y ago
      Touching people is a pretty personal thing Yep, the increased sense of intimacy that can make somebody feel more obligated to you can also make somebody feel uncomfortable and pressured. It's a technique that can definitely backfire. Using it with strangers won't necessarily give you the result you thought it would. However, I suspect in a "call 911" type of situation the other person is already uncomfortable and it's worth psychologically pulling them closer in order to focus their attention.
agurk 7y ago
I have also been told in training for these kind of events to also tell that person to come back and tell you once they've done it. Apparently people have a tendency to wander off once they've done their task, leaving you not knowing if it's been completed & when help's arriving.
bkor 7y ago
Interestingly the standard procedure in The Netherlands for medical emergencies (the ones where you find someone on the ground) changed to actually calling yourself over asking a random bystander. Aside from calling you should also put the phone on handsfree and lay it next to the person (on the ground). This as 112 (911) asks loads of questions. Age of the person, conscious yes/no, what does the skin look like, feel like, etc. If it's about CPR it'll be way easier of course... but procedure is also to call asap. Meaning right after you find the person on the ground.. not after you checked. I had to call 112 this week. In practice things are often different than any procedure ;)
- Mordisquitos 7y ago
  >Interestingly the standard procedure in The Netherlands for medical emergencies (the ones where you find someone on the ground) changed to actually calling yourself over asking a random bystander. Aside from calling you should also put the phone on handsfree and lay it next to the person (on the ground). I guess that the "tell a specific person to call 112/999/911" guideline is a leftover from the days where someone would need to physically go and find a wired phone from which to make the call. Nowadays, tending to the victim and making the call are mutually compatible in most situations.
- diydsp 7y ago
  I find this approach of taking individual responsibility much better than handing over authority to a "person in a uniform" as the GP stated. Sure it's easier to blindly trust the "official" one, but it sets up a disempowering dynamic where the group is clueless and only looking for a charismatic leader to point them in the right direction. For something cut as clearly as a fire alarm, there is no reason why everyone over 10 years old can not respond properly as single unit. > Instead of us staring at each other trying to decide whether the group considers it serious enough to go along with, just having that person singled out as the "official" one was enough to get the momentum going.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - 7y ago
namdnay 7y ago
Same thing at work :)
MS90 7y ago
I remember this from Boy Scouts. We were taught to pick someone, point straight at them and say "YOU, call 911"

phaemon 7y ago

When I worked support at a university, in the dim and distant past, it was our responsibility to clear the labs if a fire alarm went off. Students did just generally sit there until they were told to move. I think if you have more than a dozen people in your org, it's a good idea to appoint a couple of them (in case one is on vacation/off sick/the arsonist) as fire wardens. Not least you have someone who is actually counting who is there so the fire service can get an idea of who might still be in the building. Of course 99.9% of the time it doesn't matter, but that 0.1% can be very important.

Izkata 7y ago
> Students did just generally sit there until they were told to move. In my dorm, the fire alarm reliably went off every week or so. Always a false alarm, so we ended up just ignoring it most of the time. There was even one day where we were eventually told the wiring got messed up from the cold, and it went off several times in a few hours.

Cthulhu_ 7y ago

Yup, this is why you need to appoint fire marshals (and first aid) people at a workspace - you have to tell them that if the alarm goes off, this is their job and responsibility. I mean in theory any alarm should make people panic a bit and start making their way to the exit, but in practice most alarms are false alarms so people don't know if they need to act.

bkor 7y ago

> just give a random person a "uniform" (a whistle, a badge, a hat, or a vest, anything simple like that works) and tell them that when the alarm goes off, they are responsible for telling people to leave. What an absolutely strange procedure! This as a fire marshal is not responsible for getting people out. People themselves are responsible to act. The fire marshal is a backup! Here people (big building, multiple companies, etc) are told when they get hired that it's their responsibility to evacuate when the (standardized across Europe) evacuation sound goes off. Then trained people check floors to double check everyone is out, plus assist anyone having difficulty getting out. Anyone not cooperating will be reported. This all relies on the attitude of the director of each company. Some take safety very seriously, some see it as a waste of time ("nothing will happen").. until eventually something happens.

gowld 7y ago
You are conflating the policy with the practice. USA has the same policy.
vonmoltke 7y ago
> Here people (big building, multiple companies, etc) are told when they get hired that it's their responsibility to evacuate when the (standardized across Europe) evacuation sound goes off. So it's up to everyone individually to determine if leaving the building is actually safe, and to figure out which emergency exits are safe to use?

michaelt 7y ago

when the alarm went off, we all looked at each other for a few moments [...] After awhile we decided we'd better get going so we all lazily strolled outside. That's normal and expected; in most large buildings in my country, there is a weekly fire alarm test, so of course no-one sprints for the door during the first 60 seconds of hearing the siren. It's not like there's visible smoke or flames. In a way it's even desirable; no-one's getting trampled or crushed when people leave the building at a walking pace.

komali2 7y ago
> It's not like there's visible smoke or flames. I get your desire for lack of panic, but the lollygagging around fire alarms terrifies me. If you wait around to see smoke, you are now dramatically more likely to need rescue, or just die. Remember how obnoxious it is when campfire smoke blows in your direction, and how quickly you scramble to get out of the way. How you still have to blink for a couple seconds to clear your vision and the pain. Structure fires are 100x that. The smoke has nowhere to go and collects so, so fast. And it's disgustingly choking compared to a simple wood fire cause of all the plastic and oil smoke involved. It'll fill a room top-down in under a minute, and if it hits you you will be as incapacitated as if you had been hit by pepper spray, with no recourse because it's all around you. Meanwhile even if you do escape every breath is ticking years off your life... Tldr if you hear a fire alarm, stand up and leave without a moment's hesitation. No need to run, just get out quick. Please!!
- vonmoltke 7y ago
  > Tldr if you hear a fire alarm, stand up and leave without a moment's hesitation. No need to run, just get out quick. Please!! That is specifically counter to the FDNY's guidance on alarms in high rise buildings. You get up, congregate at a stairwell, and wait for instructions from the fire safety director. Simply leaving the building without knowing the nature or location of the emergency is dangerous, and staying where you are may actually be the safest course of action.
  - komali2 7y ago

bradknowles 7y ago

At a previous employer, I went through the "Emergency Responder" training, which meant that I also kept a reflective orange vest at my desk, with an appropriate label on the back. We had fire drills where the list of people who knew about the drill-to-come was intentionally kept to a tiny handful of people, usually just one person per floor. When the alarm went off, it was up to us to go into Fire Marshal mode and direct people to leave through the stairs, stay to the right because the fire department personnel will be coming up the inside, etc.... That process was actually surprisingly effective. I was a good choice because I can be a very loud person, when I want. I have maxxed out my SPL meter at 127dBA, and I've checked into what it would take to make an official go at getting the worlds record for "loudest person".