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Even with recent tariffs, US tariffs are still generally low, it's hardly a poster child for "protectionism", the EU has other barriers in addition to tariffs a

Even with recent tariffs, US tariffs are still generally low, it's hardly a poster child for "protectionism", the EU has other barriers in addition to tariffs and much of it is due to french protectionism. If you think that these "loopholes" should be closed then close them for all companies and countries, don't enact discriminatory laws and then act indignant about it.

nolok 7y ago
The US strong protectionism is not through tariffs but through tax incentives, targeted investments hidden as national security contracts and things like "buy american" acts. Just because you dress it up doesn't change what it actually is.
- throwaway925 7y ago
  "The US strong protectionism is not through tariffs but through tax incentives, targeted investments hidden as national security contracts and things like "buy american" acts." what fraction of GDP is that? 1-5%? Europe semi public enterprises have a much bigger weight. Banking, energy, postal services, transport, telecommunications were until recent national monopolies and protecting domestic champions is still a matter of national interest.
  - JAlexoid 7y ago
    Did you mention postal services? You mean like US, where only USPS has the right to put mail into your mailbox... and it's a federal criminal offense for anyone else to deliver mail into your mailbox?
- fyoving 7y ago
  Are you litigating the boeing v airbus thing? didn't the WTO rule that airbus is receiving billions in illegal subsidies? And are you suggesting that france doesn't subside specific industries? If you're complaints are exclusive to the aviation and defence industries then a US complaint regarding the EU and france could include that and every other industry.
  - hef19898 7y ago
    AFAIK the case against Boeing is still open. Arguably Airbus is getting direct subsidies (WTO ruling) while Boeing seems to get pampered by overpriced defense contracts which has the same result more or less (no WTO ruling yet). Conclusion is nobody is innocent, just guilty in different ways.
    - fyoving 7y ago
      "EU paid Airbus billions in illegal subsidies, WTO rules" https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44120525 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44120525
      - hef19898 7y ago
        True, didn't check but I think the case against Boeing brought foward by the EU is still open. Not sure if memory serves well.
      - olivepistacchio 7y ago
        Imagine if Airbus was not there, there would be no safe plane to do short-haul.
        sokoloff 7y ago
        Nonsense. Plenty of 717, non-Max 737, MD-88, MD-90, and E170/175/190/195 out there.
      - pinkfoot 7y ago
        WTO confirms US failed to fully comply over Boeing subsidies https://phys.org/news/2019-03-wto-fully-comply-boeing-subsidies.html https://phys.org/news/2019-03-wto-fully-comply-boeing-subsid... 1-1
  - nolok 7y ago
    I did not write a single word or hint about any of the things you listed, I didn't even have them on my mind. You are 100% projecting.
- realusername 7y ago
  And when the US can't manage to protect the industry with tariffs, they just put foreign people straight in prison as economic hostages like they did with Alstom.
chmod775 7y ago
> the EU has higher tariffs The estimated trade weighted average of tariffs by the US after the tariff announcements in 2017 was 2.2%. I couldn't find any more recent number. [1] For the EU this appears to be around 1.8% (2017). [2] It is true that the EU used to have higher tariffs though, but I don't think this is still true with the new, recent tariffs by the US. You can find the old number of 1.7% by the US in the second link I provided. In any case those numbers are still low. The US was at 2.3% and the EU at 3% in 2015. [3] [1]: http://www.iberglobal.com/files/2018/Trade-Wars_CPB.pdf http://www.iberglobal.com/files/2018/Trade-Wars_CPB.pdf Page 10 [2]: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/tm.tax.mrch.wm.ar.zs https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/tm.tax.mrch.wm.ar.zs [3]: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44291103 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44291103
- gcthomas 7y ago
  Always nice to have data instead of opinion on these sort of topics.
  - nolok 7y ago
    While we are on this subject, and since I agree wholeheartedly with what you said, let's give another exemple where fact and numbers are more important than generalisation and opinions: a big contention point about tariff between EU/US was cars, and how the US claimed EU had a larger tariff than the US, while the numbers actually showed the US imposed a bigger tariff on average due to the trick of calling some cars "light truck" and putting truck tariff on them. US argument: "Europe taxes American cars 10%, while America taxes European cars 2%." Which seems true, when you look at the actual EU/US tariff numbers: US: 25% tariff on trucks, 2.5% on cars EU: 22% on trucks, 10 % on cars Quote from [1]: > But when you look in details at the numbers, you realize that most of what is sold in the US, that is considered as car in the EU, is put in the trucks category in the US, by being called "light truck". > In the US there are twice as many "light trucks" sold compared to "cars". Light trucks are pickups, SUVs, minivans. Those are just "cars" in Europe. > EU import fees are 10% on cars (hatchbacks and SUVs alike). US import fees are 2.5% on cars and 25% on light trucks. > Average car price in the US is $26k, average light truck price is $36k. > Therefore, if you care for math, average duty on combined US car+light truck market is 19%, nearly double of the EU rate! Trade, tariff and the likes are complex matters, but ultimately they're also just numbers, so when in doubt, run the numbers. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/8vaqdi/trump_on_trade_the_eu_is_possibly_as_bad_as_china/e1n7tc2/?context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/8vaqdi/trump_on_tra...

nolok 7y ago

The US strong protectionism is not through tariffs but through tax incentives, targeted investments hidden as national security contracts and things like "buy american" acts. Just because you dress it up doesn't change what it actually is.

throwaway925 7y ago
"The US strong protectionism is not through tariffs but through tax incentives, targeted investments hidden as national security contracts and things like "buy american" acts." what fraction of GDP is that? 1-5%? Europe semi public enterprises have a much bigger weight. Banking, energy, postal services, transport, telecommunications were until recent national monopolies and protecting domestic champions is still a matter of national interest.
- JAlexoid 7y ago
  Did you mention postal services? You mean like US, where only USPS has the right to put mail into your mailbox... and it's a federal criminal offense for anyone else to deliver mail into your mailbox?
fyoving 7y ago
Are you litigating the boeing v airbus thing? didn't the WTO rule that airbus is receiving billions in illegal subsidies? And are you suggesting that france doesn't subside specific industries? If you're complaints are exclusive to the aviation and defence industries then a US complaint regarding the EU and france could include that and every other industry.
- hef19898 7y ago
  AFAIK the case against Boeing is still open. Arguably Airbus is getting direct subsidies (WTO ruling) while Boeing seems to get pampered by overpriced defense contracts which has the same result more or less (no WTO ruling yet). Conclusion is nobody is innocent, just guilty in different ways.
  - fyoving 7y ago
    "EU paid Airbus billions in illegal subsidies, WTO rules" https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44120525 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44120525
    - hef19898 7y ago
      True, didn't check but I think the case against Boeing brought foward by the EU is still open. Not sure if memory serves well.
    - olivepistacchio 7y ago
      Imagine if Airbus was not there, there would be no safe plane to do short-haul.
      - sokoloff 7y ago
        Nonsense. Plenty of 717, non-Max 737, MD-88, MD-90, and E170/175/190/195 out there.
    - pinkfoot 7y ago
      WTO confirms US failed to fully comply over Boeing subsidies https://phys.org/news/2019-03-wto-fully-comply-boeing-subsidies.html https://phys.org/news/2019-03-wto-fully-comply-boeing-subsid... 1-1
- nolok 7y ago
  I did not write a single word or hint about any of the things you listed, I didn't even have them on my mind. You are 100% projecting.
realusername 7y ago
And when the US can't manage to protect the industry with tariffs, they just put foreign people straight in prison as economic hostages like they did with Alstom.

chmod775 7y ago

> the EU has higher tariffs The estimated trade weighted average of tariffs by the US after the tariff announcements in 2017 was 2.2%. I couldn't find any more recent number. [1] For the EU this appears to be around 1.8% (2017). [2] It is true that the EU used to have higher tariffs though, but I don't think this is still true with the new, recent tariffs by the US. You can find the old number of 1.7% by the US in the second link I provided. In any case those numbers are still low. The US was at 2.3% and the EU at 3% in 2015. [3] [1]: http://www.iberglobal.com/files/2018/Trade-Wars_CPB.pdf http://www.iberglobal.com/files/2018/Trade-Wars_CPB.pdf Page 10 [2]: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/tm.tax.mrch.wm.ar.zs https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/tm.tax.mrch.wm.ar.zs [3]: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44291103 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44291103

gcthomas 7y ago
Always nice to have data instead of opinion on these sort of topics.
- nolok 7y ago
  While we are on this subject, and since I agree wholeheartedly with what you said, let's give another exemple where fact and numbers are more important than generalisation and opinions: a big contention point about tariff between EU/US was cars, and how the US claimed EU had a larger tariff than the US, while the numbers actually showed the US imposed a bigger tariff on average due to the trick of calling some cars "light truck" and putting truck tariff on them. US argument: "Europe taxes American cars 10%, while America taxes European cars 2%." Which seems true, when you look at the actual EU/US tariff numbers: US: 25% tariff on trucks, 2.5% on cars EU: 22% on trucks, 10 % on cars Quote from [1]: > But when you look in details at the numbers, you realize that most of what is sold in the US, that is considered as car in the EU, is put in the trucks category in the US, by being called "light truck". > In the US there are twice as many "light trucks" sold compared to "cars". Light trucks are pickups, SUVs, minivans. Those are just "cars" in Europe. > EU import fees are 10% on cars (hatchbacks and SUVs alike). US import fees are 2.5% on cars and 25% on light trucks. > Average car price in the US is $26k, average light truck price is $36k. > Therefore, if you care for math, average duty on combined US car+light truck market is 19%, nearly double of the EU rate! Trade, tariff and the likes are complex matters, but ultimately they're also just numbers, so when in doubt, run the numbers. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/8vaqdi/trump_on_trade_the_eu_is_possibly_as_bad_as_china/e1n7tc2/?context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/8vaqdi/trump_on_tra...