8 ms·

WWII Propaganda Popularized Myth That Carrots Help You See in the Dark (2013)

124 points by samclemens 7y ago

dang 7y ago
Thread from 2017: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13690676 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13690676 And a nice weird carrot thread from 2009: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1191190 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1191190
yakshaving_jgt 7y ago
Relevant QI part: https://youtu.be/0PzNDMCT0rg?t=1495 https://youtu.be/0PzNDMCT0rg?t=1495 EDIT: Actually, a better relevant QI part: https://youtu.be/7Quyte7zN70?t=228 https://youtu.be/7Quyte7zN70?t=228
benj111 7y ago
I don't think the article quite connects the dots. As I understood it, it was mainly for homefront consumption, to encourage kids to eat their veg. Pilots are cool ergo they can make veg cool, so the theory goes.
stunt 7y ago
Britain was really good at running propaganda during WWII. I once read how they used radio to change the public support and opinion about Iranian King (Reza Shah) by telling fake and often scary stories about how he treated his people because he wasn't taking a side on second world war and Iran was neutral. After running the propaganda British and the Soviet invaded Iran to secure their oil fields as supply lines for allies and they replaced the king easily.
- Jedi72 7y ago
  I imagine they still are, and the fact we dont really recognise it is a testament to their success.
- ced 7y ago
  Can anybody explain to me how British & France culture felt about colonialism post-WWII? Especially for France, I would have expected that "being invaded and exploited by a foreign nation" would suddenly take a completely different moral outlook, but no, they resist Algeria separating. Why? Semi-relevant Wikipedia: When Britain reached out to the US asking for help in the war, the US offered help contingent on Britain decolonizing post WW2, and that agreement was codified in the Atlantic charter. The decolonization of Britain (post war) also meant that US and other countries would possibly have access to markets to sell goods that were previously under British Empire-which was not accessible to them then[86][87] To bring about these changes, the establishment of UN following World War 2 codified sovereignty for nations, and encouraged free trade. The war also forced the British to come to an agreement with Indian leaders to grant them freedom if they helped with war efforts since India had one of largest armies.[88] Also, following WW2, it was untenable for British to raise capital on its own to keep its colonies. They needed to rely on America and did via the Marshall Plan to rebuild their country.
  - cmrdporcupine 7y ago
    Patriotism is one hell of a drug.
  - jcranmer 7y ago
    > Can anybody explain to me how British & France culture felt about colonialism post-WWII? Especially for France, I would have expected that "being invaded and exploited by a foreign nation" would suddenly take a completely different moral outlook, but no, they resist Algeria separating. Why? It's completely different, you see, because Germany is a nation of militaristic Huns who are bent on nothing less than the destruction of civilization, while France is the bastion of the Enlightenment and bringing civilization to the uncivilized peoples. That sort of special pleading goes a long way, especially when the main proponents are trapped in an echo chamber and seriously believe that their colonizing missions are well-accepted by the native populations.
    - leoc 7y ago
      > It was only after this logical train of thought had been put into practise [...] that the second type of lecture was commenced. > This is how the second kind went: > a. We are more numerous than they are, therefore we have a right to their syrup. > b. They are more numerous than we are, therefore they are wickedly trying to steal our syrup. > c. We are a mighty race and have a natural right to subjugate their puny one. > d. They are a mighty race and are unnaturally trying to subjugate our inoffensive one. > e. We must attack in self-defence. > f. They are attacking us by defending themselves. > g. If we do not attack them today, they will attack us tomorrow. > h. In any case we are not attacking them at all: we are offering them incalculable benefits. (T.H. White)
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  > Britain was really good at running propaganda during WWII. It helps when you literally control the entire enemy intelligence operation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-Cross_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-Cross_System > After the war, it was discovered that all the agents Germany sent to Britain had given themselves up or had been captured, with the possible exception of one who committed suicide.
aitchnyu 7y ago
I heard the counter that Germany had ground based radar and would develop airborne radar later, so the propaganda was not helpful. Can somebody answer? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_in_World_War_II#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_in_World_War_II#Germany > In February 1943, a British bomber containing a H2S radar was shot down over the Netherlands, and the 10-cm magnetron was found intact. In short order, the secret of making successful magnetrons was discovered, and microwave radar development started. > In June 1941, an RAF bomber, equipped with an ASV (Air-to-Surface Vessel) Mk II radar, made an emergency landing in France. Although the crew had attempted to destroy the set, the remains were sufficient for the German Laboratory for Aviation to discern the operation and its function. Tests indicated the merits of such a radar, and Wolfgang Martini also saw the value and tasked Lorenz to develop a similar system.
- hollerith 7y ago
  During the Battle of Britain (1940) the Brits used a radar network to track German planes and successfully concealed the existence of the network from the Germans (using the carrot propaganda and other means). The stations of the radar network were a string of about a dozen wooden towers, each about 100 feet tall, situated along the east coast of Britain. If the German knew that they were radar stations, they probably would have destroyed them and prevented Britain from rebuilding them. Without the radar network, the Royal Air Force probably would've been destroyed in the Battle of Britain, and the Royal Air Force was the only thing preventing the Germans from invading across the English Channel. So if it helped keep the Germans ignorant of the British radar network until the Germans gave up trying to destroy the Royal Air Force in September 1940, it was monumentally helpful regardless of what happened after September 1940.
  - mhh__ 7y ago
    The RADAR wasn't the key, the infrastructure around the RADAR was more important i.e. the command centres where fighters were dispatched from. By this, I mean that the Germans would've had to be very very lucky to completely stop British radar (Chain Home was pretty rubbish by the time the Germans knew about it, so it could've been rebuilt very quickly) but bombing something that small would've been very difficult given that it was in operation and well covered by fighters
vturner 7y ago
The article discusses the "victory gardens" which are quite interesting to me. Gardens I know of in the US zone 6 (without grow lights that help start the season early) are productive a few months of the year. Early spring you get leafy vegetables, but the bulk comes July/August and wanes in September. This schedule certainly doesn't seem like a major help in war time, so did they do something else? Preservation, better soil so food lasted longer,different planting varieties that produce spring - fall?
- graeme 7y ago
  All food used to come from those growing periods. I think you grew certain kinds of tubers that could be stored over winter in a root cellar or made into preserves. If you look at the picture on Wikipedia, potatoes and onions and carrots are prominent: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victory_garden https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victory_garden That said I don't know the answer and I'd be curious what they did in winter in wartime.
  - Retric 7y ago
    Preservation is largely unnecessary. If a garden provides say 1 month of food for a family, then that family buys less food for that month. Being self sufficient was possible, but takes significant labor and land.
    - graeme 7y ago
      This sounds plausible, but....you couldn't just "buy" more food into the economy in winter. You had to store it somehow. A victory garden would let other farms concentrate on more storable foods though, if the gardens accounted for greens in summer. But actual victory gardens had storable foods, I think.
      - Retric 7y ago
        That was already happening. Large scale agriculture was already set up to do long term preservation. People normally eat storable foods every month. Bread for example generally does not last long, but it’s made from grains that could have been harvested 2+ years ago. Modern preservation methods can push that to 10+ years at minor cost. That said, canning and other food storage was common. It was simply not a major focus of victory gardens. Otherwise the focus would have been on potatoes and other easily preserved foods not vegetables.
gshdg 7y ago
FWIW, severe vitamin A deficiency does harm eyesight. But past a certain healthy level it doesn’t help.
- GuB-42 7y ago
  Same idea for vitamin C. Vitamin C deficiency cause fatigue but eating large doses of vitamin C won't help you stay awake. In fact, it is unlikely to do anything at all, you will just piss all the excess off.
  - praptak 7y ago
    I believe it's still being prescribed for common cold, by similar logic w.r.t. the immune system. The actual benefit is weak, unless you're a marathon runner or a soldier on subarctic exercise: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23440782 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23440782
    - merpnderp 7y ago
      I've found that taking 3-5000mg/day for the first 2-3 days I have a cold seem to make them far less severe; just a running nose instead of full on sinus closure. I don't know about shortening the duration, as colds only usually last 3-5 days. >Regular supplementation trials have shown that vitamin C reduces the duration of colds, but this was not replicated in the few therapeutic trials that have been carried out. Nevertheless, given the consistent effect of vitamin C on the duration and severity of colds in the regular supplementation studies, and the low cost and safety, it may be worthwhile for common cold patients to test on an individual basis whether therapeutic vitamin C is beneficial for them."
  - openasocket 7y ago
    Vitamin A is actually worse because it is fat soluble, not water soluble like Vitamin C. If you consume too much Vitamin A, you don't pee it out, it gets stored in your fat cells. And because it stays in your system it can build up to toxic levels and you get hypervitaminosis. Fun fact, there's a drug to treat severe acne called Accutane (isotretinoin). It's really for the severe cases of acne, because there are a ton of side effects (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotretinoin#Adverse_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotretinoin#Adverse_effects ) and if you get pregnant while on it there will be severe birth defects. Anyway, this drug is a retinoid, which means it is essentially just large doses of vitamin A.
tomhoward 7y ago
An earlier discussion 2 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13690676 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13690676 (No, not a dupe, link given for interest purposes.)
pseudolus 7y ago
It's fascinating how wartime propaganda assumes a life of its own. Another common myth spread by the English as a means of demeaning the leader of their then French enemy during the Napoleonic Wars was that Napoleon Bonaparte was short when in fact, and according to most contemporary descriptions, he was of average height. Yet to this day a cottage industry has been built around Napoleon's height that even persists to the present through our language - see "Napoleon Complex".
- tc313 7y ago
  My understanding is that Napoleon was of average height for a peasant, but was short compared to well-fed officers.
  - pseudolus 7y ago
    I believe the consensus was that he was approximately 170cm (5'7") which was, contemporaneously, fairly average. There is a surprisingly large number of Google hits relating to why he was perceived to be short but none that offers a definitive answer. The most compelling is that he was constantly surrounded by large bodyguards which gave the public the impression that he was not tall.
    - peteretep 7y ago
      > he was constantly surrounded by large bodyguards This (and indeed, the Coldstream Guards more generally) appear to be a recurrent problem for French leaders: https://s-i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/237977/slide_237977_1211552_free.jpg https://s-i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/237977/slide_237...
    - goodcanadian 7y ago
      What I had understood was that it was due to the fact that the French foot was larger, so he was 5'2" in French feet which sounds short to someone used to the English foot. I honestly have no idea what the truth is.
ru999gol 7y ago
I thought that was something Minecraft came up with
lootsauce 7y ago
The last image of Disney carrot characters is absolutely terrifying.
stcredzero 7y ago
My mother remembers getting lightly boiled potatoes which were let to cool, put on a stick, then sprinkled with sugar. (Korea in the 50's.) Unlike the little girls in the picture, she says she was delighted to get one of those. With regards to WWII and night vision, the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) at the time had the most effective non-radar night fighting training and techniques. Some of the worst defeats dished out by the IJN to the USN were due to their excellent night fighting and an over-reliance by the US on nascent RADAR technology. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWEEHOKcTnA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWEEHOKcTnA That said, the US radar-laid guns were a game changer. In some interpretations of the Battle off Samar, the US destroyers created such a high density of hits, that Vice Admiral Takeo Kurita mistakenly identified those ships as cruisers and mistakenly identified the whole group as much stronger, which ended up saving the landing force.
- WalterBright 7y ago
  Radar-guided guns had the practical effect of doubling the firepower, due to more accurate shooting. This is an absolutely enormous advantage.

124 points by samclemens 7y ago

dang 7y ago

Thread from 2017: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13690676 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13690676 And a nice weird carrot thread from 2009: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1191190 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1191190

yakshaving_jgt 7y ago

Relevant QI part: https://youtu.be/0PzNDMCT0rg?t=1495 https://youtu.be/0PzNDMCT0rg?t=1495 EDIT: Actually, a better relevant QI part: https://youtu.be/7Quyte7zN70?t=228 https://youtu.be/7Quyte7zN70?t=228

benj111 7y ago

I don't think the article quite connects the dots. As I understood it, it was mainly for homefront consumption, to encourage kids to eat their veg. Pilots are cool ergo they can make veg cool, so the theory goes.

stunt 7y ago

Britain was really good at running propaganda during WWII. I once read how they used radio to change the public support and opinion about Iranian King (Reza Shah) by telling fake and often scary stories about how he treated his people because he wasn't taking a side on second world war and Iran was neutral. After running the propaganda British and the Soviet invaded Iran to secure their oil fields as supply lines for allies and they replaced the king easily.

Jedi72 7y ago
I imagine they still are, and the fact we dont really recognise it is a testament to their success.
ced 7y ago
Can anybody explain to me how British & France culture felt about colonialism post-WWII? Especially for France, I would have expected that "being invaded and exploited by a foreign nation" would suddenly take a completely different moral outlook, but no, they resist Algeria separating. Why? Semi-relevant Wikipedia: When Britain reached out to the US asking for help in the war, the US offered help contingent on Britain decolonizing post WW2, and that agreement was codified in the Atlantic charter. The decolonization of Britain (post war) also meant that US and other countries would possibly have access to markets to sell goods that were previously under British Empire-which was not accessible to them then[86][87] To bring about these changes, the establishment of UN following World War 2 codified sovereignty for nations, and encouraged free trade. The war also forced the British to come to an agreement with Indian leaders to grant them freedom if they helped with war efforts since India had one of largest armies.[88] Also, following WW2, it was untenable for British to raise capital on its own to keep its colonies. They needed to rely on America and did via the Marshall Plan to rebuild their country.
- cmrdporcupine 7y ago
  Patriotism is one hell of a drug.
- jcranmer 7y ago
  > Can anybody explain to me how British & France culture felt about colonialism post-WWII? Especially for France, I would have expected that "being invaded and exploited by a foreign nation" would suddenly take a completely different moral outlook, but no, they resist Algeria separating. Why? It's completely different, you see, because Germany is a nation of militaristic Huns who are bent on nothing less than the destruction of civilization, while France is the bastion of the Enlightenment and bringing civilization to the uncivilized peoples. That sort of special pleading goes a long way, especially when the main proponents are trapped in an echo chamber and seriously believe that their colonizing missions are well-accepted by the native populations.
  - leoc 7y ago
    > It was only after this logical train of thought had been put into practise [...] that the second type of lecture was commenced. > This is how the second kind went: > a. We are more numerous than they are, therefore we have a right to their syrup. > b. They are more numerous than we are, therefore they are wickedly trying to steal our syrup. > c. We are a mighty race and have a natural right to subjugate their puny one. > d. They are a mighty race and are unnaturally trying to subjugate our inoffensive one. > e. We must attack in self-defence. > f. They are attacking us by defending themselves. > g. If we do not attack them today, they will attack us tomorrow. > h. In any case we are not attacking them at all: we are offering them incalculable benefits. (T.H. White)
ceejayoz 7y ago
> Britain was really good at running propaganda during WWII. It helps when you literally control the entire enemy intelligence operation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-Cross_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-Cross_System > After the war, it was discovered that all the agents Germany sent to Britain had given themselves up or had been captured, with the possible exception of one who committed suicide.

aitchnyu 7y ago

I heard the counter that Germany had ground based radar and would develop airborne radar later, so the propaganda was not helpful. Can somebody answer? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_in_World_War_II#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_in_World_War_II#Germany > In February 1943, a British bomber containing a H2S radar was shot down over the Netherlands, and the 10-cm magnetron was found intact. In short order, the secret of making successful magnetrons was discovered, and microwave radar development started. > In June 1941, an RAF bomber, equipped with an ASV (Air-to-Surface Vessel) Mk II radar, made an emergency landing in France. Although the crew had attempted to destroy the set, the remains were sufficient for the German Laboratory for Aviation to discern the operation and its function. Tests indicated the merits of such a radar, and Wolfgang Martini also saw the value and tasked Lorenz to develop a similar system.

hollerith 7y ago
During the Battle of Britain (1940) the Brits used a radar network to track German planes and successfully concealed the existence of the network from the Germans (using the carrot propaganda and other means). The stations of the radar network were a string of about a dozen wooden towers, each about 100 feet tall, situated along the east coast of Britain. If the German knew that they were radar stations, they probably would have destroyed them and prevented Britain from rebuilding them. Without the radar network, the Royal Air Force probably would've been destroyed in the Battle of Britain, and the Royal Air Force was the only thing preventing the Germans from invading across the English Channel. So if it helped keep the Germans ignorant of the British radar network until the Germans gave up trying to destroy the Royal Air Force in September 1940, it was monumentally helpful regardless of what happened after September 1940.
- mhh__ 7y ago
  The RADAR wasn't the key, the infrastructure around the RADAR was more important i.e. the command centres where fighters were dispatched from. By this, I mean that the Germans would've had to be very very lucky to completely stop British radar (Chain Home was pretty rubbish by the time the Germans knew about it, so it could've been rebuilt very quickly) but bombing something that small would've been very difficult given that it was in operation and well covered by fighters

vturner 7y ago

The article discusses the "victory gardens" which are quite interesting to me. Gardens I know of in the US zone 6 (without grow lights that help start the season early) are productive a few months of the year. Early spring you get leafy vegetables, but the bulk comes July/August and wanes in September. This schedule certainly doesn't seem like a major help in war time, so did they do something else? Preservation, better soil so food lasted longer,different planting varieties that produce spring - fall?

graeme 7y ago
All food used to come from those growing periods. I think you grew certain kinds of tubers that could be stored over winter in a root cellar or made into preserves. If you look at the picture on Wikipedia, potatoes and onions and carrots are prominent: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victory_garden https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victory_garden That said I don't know the answer and I'd be curious what they did in winter in wartime.
- Retric 7y ago
  Preservation is largely unnecessary. If a garden provides say 1 month of food for a family, then that family buys less food for that month. Being self sufficient was possible, but takes significant labor and land.
  - graeme 7y ago
    This sounds plausible, but....you couldn't just "buy" more food into the economy in winter. You had to store it somehow. A victory garden would let other farms concentrate on more storable foods though, if the gardens accounted for greens in summer. But actual victory gardens had storable foods, I think.
    - Retric 7y ago
      That was already happening. Large scale agriculture was already set up to do long term preservation. People normally eat storable foods every month. Bread for example generally does not last long, but it’s made from grains that could have been harvested 2+ years ago. Modern preservation methods can push that to 10+ years at minor cost. That said, canning and other food storage was common. It was simply not a major focus of victory gardens. Otherwise the focus would have been on potatoes and other easily preserved foods not vegetables.

gshdg 7y ago

FWIW, severe vitamin A deficiency does harm eyesight. But past a certain healthy level it doesn’t help.

GuB-42 7y ago
Same idea for vitamin C. Vitamin C deficiency cause fatigue but eating large doses of vitamin C won't help you stay awake. In fact, it is unlikely to do anything at all, you will just piss all the excess off.
- praptak 7y ago
  I believe it's still being prescribed for common cold, by similar logic w.r.t. the immune system. The actual benefit is weak, unless you're a marathon runner or a soldier on subarctic exercise: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23440782 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23440782
  - merpnderp 7y ago
    I've found that taking 3-5000mg/day for the first 2-3 days I have a cold seem to make them far less severe; just a running nose instead of full on sinus closure. I don't know about shortening the duration, as colds only usually last 3-5 days. >Regular supplementation trials have shown that vitamin C reduces the duration of colds, but this was not replicated in the few therapeutic trials that have been carried out. Nevertheless, given the consistent effect of vitamin C on the duration and severity of colds in the regular supplementation studies, and the low cost and safety, it may be worthwhile for common cold patients to test on an individual basis whether therapeutic vitamin C is beneficial for them."
- openasocket 7y ago
  Vitamin A is actually worse because it is fat soluble, not water soluble like Vitamin C. If you consume too much Vitamin A, you don't pee it out, it gets stored in your fat cells. And because it stays in your system it can build up to toxic levels and you get hypervitaminosis. Fun fact, there's a drug to treat severe acne called Accutane (isotretinoin). It's really for the severe cases of acne, because there are a ton of side effects (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotretinoin#Adverse_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotretinoin#Adverse_effects ) and if you get pregnant while on it there will be severe birth defects. Anyway, this drug is a retinoid, which means it is essentially just large doses of vitamin A.

tomhoward 7y ago

An earlier discussion 2 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13690676 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13690676 (No, not a dupe, link given for interest purposes.)

pseudolus 7y ago

It's fascinating how wartime propaganda assumes a life of its own. Another common myth spread by the English as a means of demeaning the leader of their then French enemy during the Napoleonic Wars was that Napoleon Bonaparte was short when in fact, and according to most contemporary descriptions, he was of average height. Yet to this day a cottage industry has been built around Napoleon's height that even persists to the present through our language - see "Napoleon Complex".

tc313 7y ago
My understanding is that Napoleon was of average height for a peasant, but was short compared to well-fed officers.
- pseudolus 7y ago
  I believe the consensus was that he was approximately 170cm (5'7") which was, contemporaneously, fairly average. There is a surprisingly large number of Google hits relating to why he was perceived to be short but none that offers a definitive answer. The most compelling is that he was constantly surrounded by large bodyguards which gave the public the impression that he was not tall.
  - peteretep 7y ago
    > he was constantly surrounded by large bodyguards This (and indeed, the Coldstream Guards more generally) appear to be a recurrent problem for French leaders: https://s-i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/237977/slide_237977_1211552_free.jpg https://s-i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/237977/slide_237...
  - goodcanadian 7y ago
    What I had understood was that it was due to the fact that the French foot was larger, so he was 5'2" in French feet which sounds short to someone used to the English foot. I honestly have no idea what the truth is.

ru999gol 7y ago

I thought that was something Minecraft came up with

lootsauce 7y ago

The last image of Disney carrot characters is absolutely terrifying.

stcredzero 7y ago

My mother remembers getting lightly boiled potatoes which were let to cool, put on a stick, then sprinkled with sugar. (Korea in the 50's.) Unlike the little girls in the picture, she says she was delighted to get one of those. With regards to WWII and night vision, the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) at the time had the most effective non-radar night fighting training and techniques. Some of the worst defeats dished out by the IJN to the USN were due to their excellent night fighting and an over-reliance by the US on nascent RADAR technology. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWEEHOKcTnA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWEEHOKcTnA That said, the US radar-laid guns were a game changer. In some interpretations of the Battle off Samar, the US destroyers created such a high density of hits, that Vice Admiral Takeo Kurita mistakenly identified those ships as cruisers and mistakenly identified the whole group as much stronger, which ended up saving the landing force.

WalterBright 7y ago
Radar-guided guns had the practical effect of doubling the firepower, due to more accurate shooting. This is an absolutely enormous advantage.