7 ms·

lol they removed what would be called horrific spyware if it wasn’t made by Zoom and you’re over here on some lofty criticism about possible implications years

lol they removed what would be called horrific spyware if it wasn’t made by Zoom and you’re over here on some lofty criticism about possible implications years into the future any OS (and many other apps) that update have the power to do what you’re afraid of, and much more. plus i don’t really see a bright line between system level software and an app when apps can access your video cam, mic, all your files - basically your whole computer.

heyoni 7y ago
That's it right there. This isn't some gray area, questionable thing like that time they pushed a David Bowie song onto people's iTunes. Remember that? People completely lost their minds over it, and I agree with the sentiment. This isn't third-party anything. No one even knew this was running on their machine and it was demonstrably abusable. Good riddance!
- pvg 7y ago
  a David Bowie song It was an entire U2 album, a far greater offense.
  - bredren 7y ago
    It’s blasphemous to equate these artists.
  - dclowd9901 7y ago
    If it was a Bowie song, people probably would've been happy.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
  As one of those people who got really annoyed by it, here's two reasons why: One: On the family iPad we had at the time, we hadn't ever uploaded music to it from the family library, because there wasn't enough space for it all. Whenever anyone opened control panel and accidentally pressed "play", something by U2 (with a not-appropriate-for-little-children album cover) would come on. Two: It was hard to remove that darn album. I couldn't figure out how to get it to go away for the life of me. There's also a fundamental difference between someone adding something like Clippy to your desktop (or a U2 album) and someone saying "you need to fix your stuff or you get kicked out."
userbinator 7y ago
any OS (and many other apps) that update have the power to do what you’re afraid of, and much more. There's an ocean of difference between can and will. plus i don’t really see a bright line between system level software and an app when apps can access your video cam, mic, all your files - basically your whole computer. The setting ostensibly refers to the operating system, i.e. macOS, which I have no problems with Apple modifying if you've enabled that option, and which their EULA probably has a clause about. But from a legal perspective, modifying a third-party application which Apple does not own and did not install seems an overreach; unless their EULA explicitly grants them the right to do anything they want with the files of the system it's installed on, they could find themselves in legal trouble. (That notorious CFAA and the like.)
- jbverschoor 7y ago
  I’m quite happy with it, as I don’t see millions of people removing some hidden directory. No more zoom for me.
  - userbinator 7y ago
    The point is precisely NOT to think about only this one case like many others seem to be focusing (or Zoom-ing in...?) on, but to consider how far you are willing to let Apple exercise its power over your computer. Would you let it scan all your files and delete e.g. "suspected images of child abuse" (to use an old cliche)? Suspected copyrighted material or fragments thereof? "Extremist" content, or content which is contrary to current social norms? How authoritarian does it have to get before you start being creeped out?
    - pvg 7y ago
      You can take any capability and stretch it out to some absurd extreme. What if apt-get whatnot trashed your entire computer? What if buses started hunting pedestrians for sport? It's a line of inquiry that prioritizes handwringing over insight.
      - 7y ago
root_axis 7y ago
It's not spyware, this was not something that was intended to be abused, it's insecure software and its very common, you're running plenty of it right now.
- smittywerben 7y ago
  > It's not spyware, this was not something that was intended to be abused Do you have a source for that. It doesn’t peek around my computer a little and/or send back any telemetry? I’m being serious, I’d like to know. I had to install Zoom in school in 2014, I ended up uninstalling it the next week and reformatted after the quarter. I’m with Apple here. It’s shit insecure non-consenting software that wastes battery 99.99% of the time.
  - Izkata 7y ago
    IIRC, part of the functionality included silent background updates from a domain that nearly expired, and was only renewed when pointed out to them during the discovery of this.
    - smittywerben 7y ago
      Thanks, that cuts through a lot of the fluff. The part that freaks me out is you can’t uninstall it. “The undocumented web server remained installed even if a user uninstalled Zoom.” I’m not sure if this is common. Sony got caught with their XCP rootkit (I’m not sure if they called it this at the time) you had to fill out a “uninstall request” form on their site with your email and location[0]. I’m not sure if the uninstaller fixed the vulnerability. So maybe a rootkit might describe this if the vulnerable webserver is privileged. In Sony’s case, the side effects were unintentional (though their history with DRM is egregious). I think Zoom is just polluted MVP in production. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20051104044919/http://cp.sonybmg.com/xcp/english/form14.html https://web.archive.org/web/20051104044919/http://cp.sonybmg...
  - Kadin 7y ago
    > I had to install Zoom in school in 2014 This is a good point; we shouldn't act as though users are necessarily making an informed choice or meaningfully consenting to all the software that's on their computers. Lots of people are forced to install software at economic gunpoint (and probably can ill afford a separate computer to isolate it on). You can't depend on users and the marketplace to select against insecure software. The market is too distorted to function that way; the people forcing others to use shitty software are often isolated from the consequences themselves, so there's no effective feedback loop to stop it. Having the OS vendor step in is really the only good solution in the short term.
Mindwipe 7y ago
This is effectively a press release to the Russian and Chinese governments that Apple could unilaterally remove all VPN software from Macs in a territory if they were compelled to. If you don't think that's scary then you're just incapable of long term thinking.
- HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
  What? The blowback from that would be huge. Why would they do that? Yes, they can do that. So can Microsoft with Windows. So can Google with Android. Will any of them do that? Hopefully not, at the very least. Will all of them do that? Probably not- there's money to be made being the last company standing that actively protects privacy.
  - Mindwipe 7y ago
    > What? The blowback from that would be huge. Why would they do that? For the same reason Apple removed VPN apps from the Chinese iOS app store and multiple news organisations. Because they feel that the money from China is worth obeying oppressive regimes. I really don't think the backlash would be any worse.

heyoni 7y ago

That's it right there. This isn't some gray area, questionable thing like that time they pushed a David Bowie song onto people's iTunes. Remember that? People completely lost their minds over it, and I agree with the sentiment. This isn't third-party anything. No one even knew this was running on their machine and it was demonstrably abusable. Good riddance!

pvg 7y ago
a David Bowie song It was an entire U2 album, a far greater offense.
- bredren 7y ago
  It’s blasphemous to equate these artists.
- dclowd9901 7y ago
  If it was a Bowie song, people probably would've been happy.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
As one of those people who got really annoyed by it, here's two reasons why: One: On the family iPad we had at the time, we hadn't ever uploaded music to it from the family library, because there wasn't enough space for it all. Whenever anyone opened control panel and accidentally pressed "play", something by U2 (with a not-appropriate-for-little-children album cover) would come on. Two: It was hard to remove that darn album. I couldn't figure out how to get it to go away for the life of me. There's also a fundamental difference between someone adding something like Clippy to your desktop (or a U2 album) and someone saying "you need to fix your stuff or you get kicked out."

userbinator 7y ago

any OS (and many other apps) that update have the power to do what you’re afraid of, and much more. There's an ocean of difference between can and will. plus i don’t really see a bright line between system level software and an app when apps can access your video cam, mic, all your files - basically your whole computer. The setting ostensibly refers to the operating system, i.e. macOS, which I have no problems with Apple modifying if you've enabled that option, and which their EULA probably has a clause about. But from a legal perspective, modifying a third-party application which Apple does not own and did not install seems an overreach; unless their EULA explicitly grants them the right to do anything they want with the files of the system it's installed on, they could find themselves in legal trouble. (That notorious CFAA and the like.)

jbverschoor 7y ago
I’m quite happy with it, as I don’t see millions of people removing some hidden directory. No more zoom for me.
- userbinator 7y ago
  The point is precisely NOT to think about only this one case like many others seem to be focusing (or Zoom-ing in...?) on, but to consider how far you are willing to let Apple exercise its power over your computer. Would you let it scan all your files and delete e.g. "suspected images of child abuse" (to use an old cliche)? Suspected copyrighted material or fragments thereof? "Extremist" content, or content which is contrary to current social norms? How authoritarian does it have to get before you start being creeped out?
  - pvg 7y ago
    You can take any capability and stretch it out to some absurd extreme. What if apt-get whatnot trashed your entire computer? What if buses started hunting pedestrians for sport? It's a line of inquiry that prioritizes handwringing over insight.
    - 7y ago

root_axis 7y ago

It's not spyware, this was not something that was intended to be abused, it's insecure software and its very common, you're running plenty of it right now.

smittywerben 7y ago
> It's not spyware, this was not something that was intended to be abused Do you have a source for that. It doesn’t peek around my computer a little and/or send back any telemetry? I’m being serious, I’d like to know. I had to install Zoom in school in 2014, I ended up uninstalling it the next week and reformatted after the quarter. I’m with Apple here. It’s shit insecure non-consenting software that wastes battery 99.99% of the time.
- Izkata 7y ago
  IIRC, part of the functionality included silent background updates from a domain that nearly expired, and was only renewed when pointed out to them during the discovery of this.
  - smittywerben 7y ago
    Thanks, that cuts through a lot of the fluff. The part that freaks me out is you can’t uninstall it. “The undocumented web server remained installed even if a user uninstalled Zoom.” I’m not sure if this is common. Sony got caught with their XCP rootkit (I’m not sure if they called it this at the time) you had to fill out a “uninstall request” form on their site with your email and location[0]. I’m not sure if the uninstaller fixed the vulnerability. So maybe a rootkit might describe this if the vulnerable webserver is privileged. In Sony’s case, the side effects were unintentional (though their history with DRM is egregious). I think Zoom is just polluted MVP in production. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20051104044919/http://cp.sonybmg.com/xcp/english/form14.html https://web.archive.org/web/20051104044919/http://cp.sonybmg...
- Kadin 7y ago
  > I had to install Zoom in school in 2014 This is a good point; we shouldn't act as though users are necessarily making an informed choice or meaningfully consenting to all the software that's on their computers. Lots of people are forced to install software at economic gunpoint (and probably can ill afford a separate computer to isolate it on). You can't depend on users and the marketplace to select against insecure software. The market is too distorted to function that way; the people forcing others to use shitty software are often isolated from the consequences themselves, so there's no effective feedback loop to stop it. Having the OS vendor step in is really the only good solution in the short term.

Mindwipe 7y ago

This is effectively a press release to the Russian and Chinese governments that Apple could unilaterally remove all VPN software from Macs in a territory if they were compelled to. If you don't think that's scary then you're just incapable of long term thinking.

HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
What? The blowback from that would be huge. Why would they do that? Yes, they can do that. So can Microsoft with Windows. So can Google with Android. Will any of them do that? Hopefully not, at the very least. Will all of them do that? Probably not- there's money to be made being the last company standing that actively protects privacy.
- Mindwipe 7y ago
  > What? The blowback from that would be huge. Why would they do that? For the same reason Apple removed VPN apps from the Chinese iOS app store and multiple news organisations. Because they feel that the money from China is worth obeying oppressive regimes. I really don't think the backlash would be any worse.