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Meanwhile the majority of the plastic comes from certain countries that will remain unnamed and that will never do anything about it...

by api 7y ago

vages 7y ago
The point here is to spur innovations that the unnamed countries can benefit from once they are cheap enough.
- makapuf 7y ago
  Yes, advanced countries need to lead the path so that less advanced ones benefit from them, even if they don't have a direct gain to this they maybe owe that to less advanced nations. A bit tong in cheek ofc, but showing goodwill can be good for the image of a continent which serves its attractivity and might render its non plastic industries a bit more advance since the path of not using plastic seems clearly ahead (non native speaker here, excuse weird wordings)
tomatotomato37 7y ago
Before anyone starts saying anything about trash exports, some statistics for you to consider (Copypasted from last time this came up, also sorry mobile users for the formatting): 2010 total plastic marine debris[0]: 4,800k - 12,700k metric tons 2010 EU plastic marine debris[0]: 50k-120k metric tons (Higher than the US by ~1k) 2010 EU plastic marine debris percentage[0]: 1% 2016 EU export of nontoxic garbage to a country in top 10 plastic marine waste[2]: 269k tonnes (a lot missing statistics so wide error bars here) 2015 percent of nontoxic garbage export that is plastic/mixed[1]: ~9% Probable amount of EU plastic that gets exported to top 10 country: 26.9k - 53.8k tonnes Crude adjusted EU ranking if 100% of the doubled amount makes it into the ocean: ~10th Incredibly crude adjusted EU plastic marine debris percentage: 2% [0]: https://www.iswa.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Calendar_2011_03_AMERICANA/Science-2015-Jambeck-768-71__2_.pdf https://www.iswa.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Calendar_2011_03_... (the footnote of table 1 specifically) [1]: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Waste_shipment_statistics_based_on_the_European_list_of_waste_codes#Non-hazardous_notified_waste_based_on_LoW https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php... [2]: http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do (You'll have to screw with the customizations to get useful statistics) [3]: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/waste/transboundary-waste-shipments https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/waste/transboundary-waste-... Edit: formatting
- Pfhreak 7y ago
  > Incredibly crude adjusted EU plastic marine debris percentage: 2% Whoa, you are telling me can have a measurable, whole integer impact? That sounds like a huge win! A lot of the ways we solve this problem are going to be <1% at a time. 0.05% here, 0.75% there. We could say, "this doesn't solve a big percentage of the problem so why bother" or we can meaningfully tackle something as large as 0.5%.
  - darkpuma 7y ago
    Technically you can carve a wood log with a piece of sandpaper, but I recommend a chainsaw.
    - Pfhreak 7y ago
      The problem we have is not a wood log. The problem we have is a widely distributed pile of sawdust. If you find a wood log we can cut with a chainsaw, by all means let's do so. I just don't believe it exists.
      - sgift 7y ago
        And even if you find one: If you only have sandpaper then sandpaper is still better then looking at the wood log and "sorry, I know this has to be worked on, but I don't have the right tools - and I know I probably won't get them in time either - but I won't do with this bad tool". Sometimes you have to use what you have, even if it sucks.
        darkpuma 7y ago
        We do have the tools. International economic and military sanctions on regions that refuse to cooperate in cleanup and reform efforts, and international funding for those that do. Other rivers have been cleaned up before, the big 10 polluting rivers can be cleaned up too. This is not a technical problem, it's a political problem. When push comes to shove, our current political regimes seem to have little regard for the environment as a whole. Token gestures only placate people so they don't demand meaningful reform.
ben_w 7y ago
That isn’t an argument for anyone else to not to do anything.
- dwheeler 7y ago
  Perhaps, but if you want to solve a problem, you need to address the primary cause. If the European rivers never released any single-use plastic it would not have a serious impact on the problem. The vast majority of this pollution comes from the Asian rivers (esp. the Yangtze); if you want to solve the problem, you have to address them.
  - ben_w 7y ago
    True, but I don’t have a democratic vote in China, and I do have one in the EU. As the three largest economic blocks in the world are the USA, the EU, and the PRC, and they are roughly the same size (~15e9 $), if I ask my representatives to put a bit of pressure on the other two I expect almost nothing to happen.
viraptor 7y ago
Sure they will, if it's profitable. All it takes is EU introducing this and then implementing "we sorted ourselves out, now plastic packaging import is taxed extra". (yes I am ignoring how hard would it be to introduce that change)

Meanwhile the majority of the plastic comes from certain countries that will remain unnamed and that will never do anything about it...

by api 7y ago

Meanwhile the majority of the plastic comes from certain countries that will remain unnamed and that will never do anything about it...

vages 7y ago

The point here is to spur innovations that the unnamed countries can benefit from once they are cheap enough.

makapuf 7y ago
Yes, advanced countries need to lead the path so that less advanced ones benefit from them, even if they don't have a direct gain to this they maybe owe that to less advanced nations. A bit tong in cheek ofc, but showing goodwill can be good for the image of a continent which serves its attractivity and might render its non plastic industries a bit more advance since the path of not using plastic seems clearly ahead (non native speaker here, excuse weird wordings)

tomatotomato37 7y ago

Before anyone starts saying anything about trash exports, some statistics for you to consider (Copypasted from last time this came up, also sorry mobile users for the formatting): 2010 total plastic marine debris[0]: 4,800k - 12,700k metric tons 2010 EU plastic marine debris[0]: 50k-120k metric tons (Higher than the US by ~1k) 2010 EU plastic marine debris percentage[0]: 1% 2016 EU export of nontoxic garbage to a country in top 10 plastic marine waste[2]: 269k tonnes (a lot missing statistics so wide error bars here) 2015 percent of nontoxic garbage export that is plastic/mixed[1]: ~9% Probable amount of EU plastic that gets exported to top 10 country: 26.9k - 53.8k tonnes Crude adjusted EU ranking if 100% of the doubled amount makes it into the ocean: ~10th Incredibly crude adjusted EU plastic marine debris percentage: 2% [0]: https://www.iswa.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Calendar_2011_03_AMERICANA/Science-2015-Jambeck-768-71__2_.pdf https://www.iswa.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Calendar_2011_03_... (the footnote of table 1 specifically) [1]: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Waste_shipment_statistics_based_on_the_European_list_of_waste_codes#Non-hazardous_notified_waste_based_on_LoW https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php... [2]: http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do (You'll have to screw with the customizations to get useful statistics) [3]: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/waste/transboundary-waste-shipments https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/waste/transboundary-waste-... Edit: formatting

Pfhreak 7y ago
> Incredibly crude adjusted EU plastic marine debris percentage: 2% Whoa, you are telling me can have a measurable, whole integer impact? That sounds like a huge win! A lot of the ways we solve this problem are going to be <1% at a time. 0.05% here, 0.75% there. We could say, "this doesn't solve a big percentage of the problem so why bother" or we can meaningfully tackle something as large as 0.5%.
- darkpuma 7y ago
  Technically you can carve a wood log with a piece of sandpaper, but I recommend a chainsaw.
  - Pfhreak 7y ago
    The problem we have is not a wood log. The problem we have is a widely distributed pile of sawdust. If you find a wood log we can cut with a chainsaw, by all means let's do so. I just don't believe it exists.
    - sgift 7y ago
      And even if you find one: If you only have sandpaper then sandpaper is still better then looking at the wood log and "sorry, I know this has to be worked on, but I don't have the right tools - and I know I probably won't get them in time either - but I won't do with this bad tool". Sometimes you have to use what you have, even if it sucks.
      - darkpuma 7y ago
        We do have the tools. International economic and military sanctions on regions that refuse to cooperate in cleanup and reform efforts, and international funding for those that do. Other rivers have been cleaned up before, the big 10 polluting rivers can be cleaned up too. This is not a technical problem, it's a political problem. When push comes to shove, our current political regimes seem to have little regard for the environment as a whole. Token gestures only placate people so they don't demand meaningful reform.

ben_w 7y ago

That isn’t an argument for anyone else to not to do anything.

dwheeler 7y ago
Perhaps, but if you want to solve a problem, you need to address the primary cause. If the European rivers never released any single-use plastic it would not have a serious impact on the problem. The vast majority of this pollution comes from the Asian rivers (esp. the Yangtze); if you want to solve the problem, you have to address them.
- ben_w 7y ago
  True, but I don’t have a democratic vote in China, and I do have one in the EU. As the three largest economic blocks in the world are the USA, the EU, and the PRC, and they are roughly the same size (~15e9 $), if I ask my representatives to put a bit of pressure on the other two I expect almost nothing to happen.

viraptor 7y ago

Sure they will, if it's profitable. All it takes is EU introducing this and then implementing "we sorted ourselves out, now plastic packaging import is taxed extra". (yes I am ignoring how hard would it be to introduce that change)