5 ms·

While I think Woz sets a good example, they're human - and I'm sure they've done and/or said things that are less than one might expect and which one probably w

While I think Woz sets a good example, they're human - and I'm sure they've done and/or said things that are less than one might expect and which one probably wouldn't approve of or condone - or perhaps which one might even condemn. I'd caution against canonising people - it sets too high a standard; which no one real can meet.

pg_is_a_butt 7y ago
people are real, genius.
vasco 7y ago
Perhaps out of place but why are you consistently calling Woz "they"? I'm not a native speaker and it sounds very weird.
- justinjlynn 7y ago
  As I'm not aware of what pronouns they personally prefer, I fall back to using the singular, gender-neutral, "they/them/their". It's a fairly new usage in colloquial English but I find it to be common enough so as to not impair understanding.
  - bsaul 7y ago
    completely off topic, but is this where we’re at now ? Calling someone « they » and thus create confusion, just in case he doesn’t belong to the 99.9% of the population who is just fine with his DNA, and eventhough he never expressed any kind of opinion leading you to think he isn’t fine with his gender ?
    - foldr 7y ago
      Singular 'they' is pretty well established usage by now, regardless of gender considerations. Even people who complain about it still use it: https://stroppyeditor.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know-about-singular-they/ https://stroppyeditor.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/everything-yo...
      - zellyn 7y ago
        That is a great treatment. Thanks for the link.
    - vidarh 7y ago
      There is no implication that "he isn't fine with his gender". The implication is that the speaker doesn't know, and it doesn't matter enough to find out or make a judgement call. Personally I still use he/she most of the time unless I have a reason not to, but I also try to get into the habit of assuming less, not least because online in particular it is increasingly noticeable how often we assume someone's gender even in situations we have no reason to. It's not unsurprising that some choose to carry that over into discussing people they don't know the preference of when it doesn't otherwise matter. One reason to do so may be to explicitly normalise the usage so it doesn't imply a value judgement e.g based on appearance.
      - rusk 7y ago
        While I'm sympathetic to this point of view, it seems pretty clear to me that Woz self-identifies as male. He has quite a visible profile and has never presented as anything other than masculine (with the exception maybe of the odd flourish on dancing with the stars), so to select such a pronoun in this case I believe is disregarding how he would wish to be identified.
        foldr 7y ago
        Using a gender neutral pronoun isn't disregarding a person's gender identity, any more than referring to them as a "person" is.
        rusk 7y ago
        I actually really don’t mind that much, I believe we can use language in whatever way suits us to express our thoughts and beliefs. Gp wasnt being prescriptive upon other people and I respect that. I am all for addressing people by their favoured pronoun.
      - bsaul 7y ago
        « One reason to do so may be to explicitly normalise the usage so it doesn't imply a value judgement » That’s some scary sentence here. so gender is now a « judgment ». Like, there’s no reason to assume because steve wozniak has all the physical characteristics of a male, and has always been called « mister », using « he » (which is the grammatically correct way of designing a male human in the english language by default) is the expression of a value judgement... Seeing this kind of mental twist in a scientific forum (which believes there is something called nature, with laws and hard facts) makes me really scared.
  - C1sc0cat 7y ago
    They can be plural as well which is why its a bit jarring
    - rusk 7y ago
      So can "you", and speaking English as a first language all my life I still find it jarring. It's a constant irritation that colloqs such as ye, or yous are considered vulgar.
  - qwkudhq 7y ago
    This is ideological idiocy. Please get lost.
  - xnaj 7y ago
    "They" sounds like a person has multiple personality disorder, so Woz might be offended by the usage. Actually Stallman has arrived at this conclusion independently (see the bottom of this link): https://stallman.org/articles/genderless-pronouns.html https://stallman.org/articles/genderless-pronouns.html
  - derangedHorse 7y ago
    It is definitely not common when talking about a specific person
  - specialist 7y ago
    As a sci-fi buff, I expected the new gender neutral pronouns to be something like zey, zem, zir, or whatever. Reusing "they" is unfortunate. And bad grammar.
- jagannathtech 7y ago
  they -> people like woz
- homonculus1 7y ago
  Native speaker here--it is extremely weird usage. I struggled to understand who/how many the comment was referring to and had to read it several times.
liberte82 7y ago
Except for the Woz

pg_is_a_butt 7y ago

people are real, genius.

vasco 7y ago

Perhaps out of place but why are you consistently calling Woz "they"? I'm not a native speaker and it sounds very weird.

justinjlynn 7y ago
As I'm not aware of what pronouns they personally prefer, I fall back to using the singular, gender-neutral, "they/them/their". It's a fairly new usage in colloquial English but I find it to be common enough so as to not impair understanding.
- bsaul 7y ago
  completely off topic, but is this where we’re at now ? Calling someone « they » and thus create confusion, just in case he doesn’t belong to the 99.9% of the population who is just fine with his DNA, and eventhough he never expressed any kind of opinion leading you to think he isn’t fine with his gender ?
  - foldr 7y ago
    Singular 'they' is pretty well established usage by now, regardless of gender considerations. Even people who complain about it still use it: https://stroppyeditor.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know-about-singular-they/ https://stroppyeditor.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/everything-yo...
    - zellyn 7y ago
      That is a great treatment. Thanks for the link.
  - vidarh 7y ago
    There is no implication that "he isn't fine with his gender". The implication is that the speaker doesn't know, and it doesn't matter enough to find out or make a judgement call. Personally I still use he/she most of the time unless I have a reason not to, but I also try to get into the habit of assuming less, not least because online in particular it is increasingly noticeable how often we assume someone's gender even in situations we have no reason to. It's not unsurprising that some choose to carry that over into discussing people they don't know the preference of when it doesn't otherwise matter. One reason to do so may be to explicitly normalise the usage so it doesn't imply a value judgement e.g based on appearance.
    - rusk 7y ago
      While I'm sympathetic to this point of view, it seems pretty clear to me that Woz self-identifies as male. He has quite a visible profile and has never presented as anything other than masculine (with the exception maybe of the odd flourish on dancing with the stars), so to select such a pronoun in this case I believe is disregarding how he would wish to be identified.
      - foldr 7y ago
        Using a gender neutral pronoun isn't disregarding a person's gender identity, any more than referring to them as a "person" is.
        rusk 7y ago
        I actually really don’t mind that much, I believe we can use language in whatever way suits us to express our thoughts and beliefs. Gp wasnt being prescriptive upon other people and I respect that. I am all for addressing people by their favoured pronoun.
    - bsaul 7y ago
      « One reason to do so may be to explicitly normalise the usage so it doesn't imply a value judgement » That’s some scary sentence here. so gender is now a « judgment ». Like, there’s no reason to assume because steve wozniak has all the physical characteristics of a male, and has always been called « mister », using « he » (which is the grammatically correct way of designing a male human in the english language by default) is the expression of a value judgement... Seeing this kind of mental twist in a scientific forum (which believes there is something called nature, with laws and hard facts) makes me really scared.
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  They can be plural as well which is why its a bit jarring
  - rusk 7y ago
    So can "you", and speaking English as a first language all my life I still find it jarring. It's a constant irritation that colloqs such as ye, or yous are considered vulgar.
- qwkudhq 7y ago
  This is ideological idiocy. Please get lost.
- xnaj 7y ago
  "They" sounds like a person has multiple personality disorder, so Woz might be offended by the usage. Actually Stallman has arrived at this conclusion independently (see the bottom of this link): https://stallman.org/articles/genderless-pronouns.html https://stallman.org/articles/genderless-pronouns.html
- derangedHorse 7y ago
  It is definitely not common when talking about a specific person
- specialist 7y ago
  As a sci-fi buff, I expected the new gender neutral pronouns to be something like zey, zem, zir, or whatever. Reusing "they" is unfortunate. And bad grammar.
jagannathtech 7y ago
they -> people like woz
homonculus1 7y ago
Native speaker here--it is extremely weird usage. I struggled to understand who/how many the comment was referring to and had to read it several times.

liberte82 7y ago

Except for the Woz